Jon Moxley on Talk is Jericho

[Coffey]

2 minutes ago, Mad Dog said:

Cole seems to like her and she was probably the best option after they realized Coach has no redeeming qualities in the booth.

Yeah, Coach was another complete headscratcher. They brought him back & after working previously for WWE & then working for ESPN, he was some how worse. How the hell does that happen?

[Mad Dog]

1 minute ago, Coffey said:

Yeah, Coach was another complete headscratcher. They brought him back & after working previously for WWE & then working for ESPN, he was some how worse. How the hell does that happen?

I think the problem with Coach is a brainless shill. He's good at reading a teleprompter but expect him to interject an original thought of his own and he has nothing,

[C.S.]

Transcript (courtesy of CagesideSeats.com):

Jon Moxley explains how WWE’s creative process convinced him to leave the company

Quote

“This is the day that I started - I remember being in the writer’s room and pulling out my phone and counting down the days... We’re in L.A., early start - show starts at 5. Get there at noon, Seth gets there about the same time as me. Working with Seth, I’m the bad guy at this point, I’m a heel. Get to the arena, and immediately a bunch of writers come up to me with a bunch of scripts, and the thread throughout the show is that Seth Rollins will be challenging me to come out to the ring and fight and I will pop on the screen and cut a promo and then - I’ve got like six promos throughout the night saying various stuff and then at the very end we finally have a big fight in the ring, right? So it’s gonna be a long day. Lotta running around, some are gonna be live, some are gonna be pre-taped. Even pre-taped ones that should take 30 seconds, as you know, in WWE they can take 40 minutes...

They hand me these scripts and, to my eye, all the things that are on these scripts - they’re typical WWE scripts. It’s a bunch of words, a bunch of big words, a bunch of goofy words, none of it makes any sense to me. We’re not telling any kind of tangible story, we’re not doing anything to get any kind of characters over or - nothing that makes any sense to me, so, you know, typical.

The one I’m most concerned with is the in-ring promo at the end of the night... 6:16. So we go into the writer’s room, I start reading this promo. And, again, not trying to pass judgement, but to my eye, in my opinion - this is absolute hot garbage, awful crap. I can’t make any sense of it, I don’t know what we’re even saying. The main jist of it was that the people were smelly, disgusting people and they’re foul, disgusting - you can kind of just see Vince saying these words, ‘Ohh, Liverpool - sounds like a skin disease’ you know? You can just picture the Vince face. I don’t know who wrote this, but if it was you, you should be ashamed of yourself...

The things that catches my eye the most is a joke about a pooper scooper. I’m gonna let that hang in the air for a minute. I’m gonna let you really absorb it, then I’m gonna say it again - pooper scooper. Like something along the lines of I wouldn’t come out there without a pooper scooper. I’m like, ‘I’m not saying that, so let’s change it.’ So I’m like, ‘did Vince write this?’ ‘We don’t know who wrote it’, so Vince -

Here’s how the creative process works in WWE. It doesn’t really make any sense, I still don’t know how it works but, so, now it’s like, okay, Vince is in a meeting, so we have to try and re-write it, send it in to Koski, have it re-printed, and put it in front of Vince without the pooper scooper line. Because if he sees it, he’s gonna fall in love with it, and then he’s gonna be like ‘Aw, ya gotta say the pooper scooper line! It’s such good shit!’ So we’re like, okay, hurry up and take out the pooper scooper line. So he writes, it’s something along of the lines of - we’re in L.A., he tries to insult the content of their character more so than their actual smell. He says something along the lines of ‘Oh, L.A. shallow trash, I wouldn’t come out here without a gas mask’ or something. Remember that, because it’s gonna be important later.

And then I’m like, ‘okay, whatever, I might not say that line but okay whatever, we’ll worry about it later - let’s just get it in front of Vince without the pooper scooper line, cause I’m just like - that’s just too embarrassing, I can’t say that.’ So anyway, we get it in, we send it in, we cross our fingers that Vince sees our version and not the original version.

So then I go off to do, then I’m a little bit exhausted just from this insanity. So I’m going off to do the next promo that was in a hallway with another writer. And I’m reading it and again, it doesn’t make any sense, I don’t really know what I’m saying, or what points I’m making, or how I’m supposed to be getting any heat or telling any story or any - I told the writer, I said, ‘ You know, if we didn’t have to run around trying to like, make ourselves not look like idiots and get rid of pooper scooper lines and stuff like that, we could actually sit down and tell a story. We’re all just in self-preservation mode trying to not look like idiots instead of creating good things.’ He’s like ‘ah, uh, hhhh’ whatever. Do that promo, I think that was pre-taped. Come back to the writers room and I’m like ‘any update?’ No update yet, but we did get this - notes from VKM.

And it says, ‘Notes from VKM: Dean needs to understand why he needs to insult the audience. Dean needs to read his promos verbatum and not try to re-write them.’ And I’m just like [long sigh]. Just like the feeling of getting punched in the gut like ‘what the...’ And I said to the writer, it’s not his fault, but I yelled at him. He just took the brunt of it. I’m like, ‘Why do I work here? I’m a professional wrestler who can tell stories and come up with promos and I believe that I have the abillity to talk people into buildings, I learned those skills years ago and wanted to bring them here to WWE and you just want me to say your stupid lines. If you want somebody to read your stupid lines, hire an actor. Cause they’ll probably do a better job of it than me. I’m not interested in doing it.’

So I’m just like ‘uh’, so we’re still just hoping we got our version in before the pooper scooper version. So go off to do ANOTHER promo, I believe this one was live. And again, it doesn’t really make any sense to me, I’m just like saying stuff. And earlier I had to go into Vince, because in this promo there is a line, that’s a very distasteful line taking a jab at my friend who had leukemia and is now going off to recover from that, Roman Reigns. I don’t remember what the line was, but I went, ‘I’m not saying that - are you kidding me?’ I’m going right into Vince on this one, this is clearly a mistake. [Jericho: It’s a cheap heat line.] Yeah, this is clearly a mistake, right.

I go into, I think it was a production meeting at the time, and I’m just like, ‘Hey, real quick, this is [laughs] surely you don’t want me to say this.’ And he’s like ‘oh but Roman’s part of the story, we’ve got to make sure he’s still included, you turn on him and Seth,’ and he kind of explains it to me, ‘you know, you just say the thing about Roman, just include him’. And he said it in kind of an innocuous way, where it kind of didn’t seem so bad, and I was just like, ‘uh, okay’ and all the writers were like ‘oh, you gotta say this’ and basically he gave me the Vince jedi mind trick. Which I’m pretty immune to at this point, but every once in a while he still gets me. It’s my fault, I got jedi-ed, whatever.

So I think this one we did live, I cut the promo. Soon as that line left my mouth, I went ‘Oh my God I can’t believe I just said that. [Jericho asks if Moxley remembers what it was] It was just something about ‘He’s got cancer, sucks to be him’ something like that. Not cool... and in the middle of all this, trying to get pooper scooper lines out of the script, I don’t even realize that this HORRIBLE thing that I shouldn’t be saying, it’s like oh my god.

Now I go back into the writers room, this is getting to be an exhausting day. And if you’re having trouble following all this, imagine what it was like to be me. So I go back into the writers room and - success! We got our version of the promo in before the pooper scooper line. And also, keep in mind during all this - this is a billion dollar company, run by a man who’s allegedly a genius. And keep in mind, we’re all adults, and we’re talking about stuff like this. So, good news, we got it in before the pooper scooper line. But when he wrote that, whatever line he wrote ‘I wouldn’t come out here without a gas mask or whatever’, now, I read the new promo, now this is written by Vince.

And it says, ‘Dean Ambrose enters wearing a surgical mask,’ you know, like a mask like a doctor would wear to protect you against diseases, disease from the disgusting smelly people. And it’s just more of the same... and I’m so embarrassed and I’m just like, ‘are you kidding me?’ Cause he saw the gas mask - here’s where he made a mistake. He used a noun. You gotta watch out for nouns, cause Vince will turn a noun into a prop real quick. So now I’m wearing a surgical mask. ‘He wants you to wear a surgical mask tonight, then next week come out with a gas mask, and then the next week come out in a full HazMat suit’ to protect myself against the disgusting fans. And I’m like ‘OH MY GOD’, so now I gotta go in to Vince. Again.

I remember I walked up to his office, where he is at this point. And Koski was about to go in to go over something or whatever and I’m like, ‘can I go in real quick? I just gotta do this,’ and he’s like okay, cool. And I was about to walk in and I was just like, ‘can you give me 30 seconds though first?’ I remember physically leaning on a road case and feeling like actual exhaustion, just like emotional, physical, mental exhaustion. And not so much because of that day, but because of six years of this. Six years of having to go into this man’s office - this old man, and trying to explain to him why wearing a surgical mask is a stupid idea. Why carrying a little red wagon to the ring is a stupid idea. Why naming a mannequin in the ring is a stupid idea. I was just like, I was done.

So I go in, and I’m like, ‘yo, I tried to explain it that like I don’t think people will be able to understand me if they can’t see my mouth moving.’ But he’s like, ‘oh, but it’s such...’ So we came to some sort of compromise where I have like a handkerchief, which is a little less embarrassing and he’s just like, ‘oh, you just - it’s just so you. You don’t want to lose that thing that makes you you cause you have so much creative license you can do anything. You can check with props, see if maybe you can put a clothespin on your nose, I don’t know, something like that.’ I’m thinking, ‘What? Creative license? What creative license do I have? I do exactly what you tell me and it’s terrible crap. That’s not creative license.’

So I’m like oh my god, so, whatever, do the promo with the handkerchief, whatever. I remember I ran out of the building when I was done. We had a big fight, I was hot, had a little bit of adrenaline. Everybody’s super happy, people are high-fiving at the end of the show like it was this great success. We got in the truck, went to the hotel around the corner and as soon as I got in the room I was just like - first of all, I need a drink right now. Second of all, I’m like what a waste of time. We didn’t accomplish anything. I have nothing. I did six promos, I can’t tell you what I said. I can’t tell you what the story is. Our angle now is gonna be dead, if it wasn’t dead already. You know? I don’t even have words.”

Vince McMahon wanted Dean Ambrose to say something about Roman Reigns’ cancer that was so bad WWE ‘would have lost sponsors’

Quote

“This promo also had a line regarding my actual friend, who’s going through actual leukemia, that Vince wanted me to say. That he tried to talk me into saying. This is where I absolutely drew the line. I was like, ‘absolutely not’... he was like, ‘well, if you feel uncomfortable, that’s fine.’ That’s where I finally had to put my foot down [Jericho: ‘This is another cancer reference to Roman?’] Yeah.

And it is the worst line. You can not - I’m not gonna say it on air. I’ll tell you after we’re done, but I’m not even gonna say it on air, that’s how bad it was. It would have been like a thing where like somebody would have had to get fired. Maybe me. They would have like lost sponsors, Susan G. Komen and all that would have been like - and I don’t know who wrote it, I don’t know if it was Vince himself or if it was a writer and you’re listening right now, you should be ashamed of yourself. You wouldn’t believe it.

But if I’d a just said it? If I’d been like, ‘ok’ and just read the script? I can’t imagine... but it would have been on me. Not on Vince.”

UPDATE: Another transcript that isn't quite as one-sided. 

https://prowrestlingstories.com/news/jon-moxley-liberation-dean-ambrose-wwe/

[rovert]

Yeah, Renee Young is great on anything other than commentary. Meltzer on audio recently said she was Peter Principled to commentary.

Nothing Ambrose said was a shock to me outside from it coming from such a high-level guy. Personally thought Moxley was a lifer who would wrestle for WWE until both his shoulders blew out. 

After listening I genuinely hope he's an agent for change in and outside the company. 

[CarpetCrawler]

 

4 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

She's actually kind of okay with just Michael Cole but that was the Mae Young Classic. I blame Corey Graves as he is just overbearing and insufferable at times

Corey is the dirt worst.  He's trying to do a Jesse Ventura schtick but he falls into the same trap that Jesse fell into sometimes where he just becomes too much and doesn't realize when he needs to step back.  But even Jesse most of the time (except with Vince) knew when to back off.  His fawning over Mandy is so creepy whereas his fawning over Eva Marie at least had him clearly in on the joke rather than sounding like he's drooling over her worse than Vince would with Miss Elizabeth.  Corey moving up from NXT was probably the worst possible thing that could have happened to him.

[DMJ]

Renee was definitely put in the booth as part of the Women's Revolution deal. And I'd theorize that her initial contract may have also been coming up and there was interest from networks and sports channels. As a backstage interviewer, she was clearly a natural and she's obviously a beautiful woman to boot - if ESPN hired Jonathan friggin' Coachman, I'm guessing ESPN and Fox Sports had their eyes on her too (probably even back when she was working in Canada). 

As I said, I could be way off but I could see the WWE possibly re-signing her to more a lucrative deal after her first expired and then, as the pay's gone up, thinking, "Hey, if we're going to get the most out of our investment, she should be on TV more." What non-wrestler role is on TV the most? Commentator! We'll make her a commentator...even if that's not what we hired her to do or what she excels at. 

There's also the added thought that, based on what her husband said, the overproduction and micromanaging of every aspect of the show includes the commentary and because she is being overproduced, her commentary suffers as she can't use her natural instincts to actually do the job correctly. I mean, don't we already know that to be somewhat true with Booker T? Or do we all actually believe that if the real-life Booker T was sitting on your couch, watching a match with you, he would be the same annoying dweeb with the inane (and stolen) catchphrases that we hear in the WWE? I tend to think that Booker T has more insights than "shucky ducky quack quack" and sometimes get the sneaking feeling that Vince McMahon might just have a documented penchant for minstrelsy. Or not? Maybe I'm wrong and Renee, Booker, Graves, Jerry Lawler after 95', and Mick Foley are all just really, really bad at their job.

[CarpetCrawler]

Just now, DMJ said:

 if ESPN hired Jonathan friggin' Coachman, I'm guessing ESPN and Fox Sports had their eyes on her too (probably even back when she was working in Canada). 

The absurd thing is when he's reading off a teleprompter for sports he's actually not as bad as you'd think.  After he left WWE but before he had a major role with ESPN he used to do the halftime show for New York Knicks games on MSG Network for years so I had to see him almost constantly, and he was very good at a sportsdesk-type job.  Like completely different from how he has ever been in WWE.  That WWE Machine just drains you.

[Mad Dog]

9 minutes ago, CarpetCrawler said:

 

Corey is the dirt worst.  He's trying to do a Jesse Ventura schtick but he falls into the same trap that Jesse fell into sometimes where he just becomes too much and doesn't realize when he needs to step back.  But even Jesse most of the time (except with Vince) knew when to back off.  His fawning over Mandy is so creepy whereas his fawning over Eva Marie at least had him clearly in on the joke rather than sounding like he's drooling over her worse than Vince would with Miss Elizabeth.  Corey moving up from NXT was probably the worst possible thing that could have happened to him.

He really pissed me off when Bayley beat Charlotte. Just shut the fuck up for 5 seconds instead of ruining a cool moment and making it about Corey Graves. I really wish they would remove him from women's matches because he's a borderline creeper most of the time. 

[Strummer]

Can we count this interview as a win for Meltzer?  Mox basically parroted all the news Dave has been reporting about creative the last several years.  kind of a bad day for Meltz haters who think he was out of the loop about what's going on backstage

[Mad Dog]

I'm sure they will just move on to some other reason or just ignore it completely. 

[Strummer]

Also remember when some people were saying/predicting Mox came up with the vaccine/germ/Bane gimmick himself?  Ummm... yeah

[SteveJRogers]

8 hours ago, SirEdger said:

The difference is that things might not get to a point where Renee will feel the need to leave because she's stuck between a rock and a hard place like AJ Lee was towards the end. Mox did everything to ensure WWE wouldn't put Renee in a bad spot because of him wanting to leave the company so badly. But yeah, it's safe to say that he left at the right time in his career.

Pretty much.  He fulfilled everything left to fulfill, was given a full “we really mean it this time” (literally like the third or fourth time they promoted the final SHIELD reunion appearance) sendoff, and not some Fedex or phone call future endeavored nonsense.  Making it feel like no one wanted to burn the bridge.

[sek69]

Renee will be fine, even if WWE gets shitty with her she'd have a TV job by the next business day most likely. Plus you'd need to be caught mid-murder for WWE to fire anyone now. 

I did get the impression WWE thought Mox was just burnt out in wrestling and was just going to go away for a while. I don't think they would have done all they did if they had any idea what his plans were.I don't think he would have got the Revival treatment or anything had they known (he's still friends with two of their top stars and they wouldn't want to piss them off), but I'm sure had they known what he was planning he would have disappeared off the face of the Earth until his deal ended.

Also do we know if his contract was extended to cover the injury time from his arm injury? Or is that just a move they pull when they are feeling especially petty toward someone?

[Jmare007]

2 hours ago, Strummer said:

Can we count this interview as a win for Meltzer?  Mox basically parroted all the news Dave has been reporting about creative the last several years.  kind of a bad day for Meltz haters who think he was out of the loop about what's going on backstage

Of all the things people bitch about Dave, him talking about WWE's creative process being a clusterfuck that leaves talent with very little (or non) wiggle room to actually be creative wasn't one of them. Unless we are talking about weird people on Twitter that have strange fixation with anything Meltzer says or reports.

I think Punk's podcast was the thing that made every rational fan realize that things were indeed as fucked up as perceived by most and reported by guys like Dave.

[Mad Dog]

6 hours ago, Jmare007 said:

Of all the things people bitch about Dave, him talking about WWE's creative process being a clusterfuck that leaves talent with very little (or non) wiggle room to actually be creative wasn't one of them. Unless we are talking about weird people on Twitter that have strange fixation with anything Meltzer says or reports.

I think Punk's podcast was the thing that made every rational fan realize that things were indeed as fucked up as perceived by most and reported by guys like Dave.

I think he is talking about the people that endlessly harp on when he reports on what they are planning to do and then suddenly the opposite happen. 

[El-P]

You know what I enjoyed about Mox on this podcast ? His take on money. "What would I do with 10M $ ? My truck is paid, my house is paid, what am I gonna do with 10M $ ? Buy a Maserati ?" He's so right. No one needs this kind of money in their life.

[Mad Dog]

5 minutes ago, El-P said:

You know what I enjoyed about Mox on this podcast ? His take on money. "What would I do with 10M $ ? My truck is paid, my house is paid, what am I gonna do with 10M $ ? Buy a Maserati ?" He's so right. No one needs this kind of money in their life.

See, I disagree with this. He could build a money bin and swim in it like Scrooge McDuck. Guy is cheating himself of the good life... 

[Afro Steel]

Great interview. He pulls no punches, but doesn't sound at all bitter. His discontent doesn't sound like it stems from payouts or not being elevated on the card, and I think that helps lend credibility to his account. 

Some standout points for me:

- Sounds like Dean hated a lot of the characteristics of his post-Shield character as we did. Having to say and do things that didn't make him sound unusual; just like an idiot.

- The creative process is totally broken. It all runs through Vince, but the flow and structure of the creative process seems like it's not clear, even to the talent that works there.

- The scripted nature of promos in WWE often fail to help tell a story or move things along. Moxley says something like, "It's just words. I don't even know what I'm talking about" when describing what the average scripted promo given to him was like.

- Being a talent for WWE sounds absolutely draining, mentally and physically. Not necessarily because of the wrestling, but the micromanaging. Jericho says at one point, "The wrestling is the easy part." 

- Moxley's payoff for that final Shield appearance was basically what someone gets just for being in the building on a given night. 

- He's got a great perspective on life in general. He sounds thankful for the experiences of being with WWE, but he's pretty much set financially and can now just focus on renewing his love for wrestling outside of the WWE bubble. Maybe it's because I've had these realizations myself in recent years, but life really does improve a lot when you identify what makes you content and embrace that versus chasing the stereotypical vision of what success looks like. (i.e. piles of money and lots of fancy toys)

[Cap]

I don't want this to come off as an "all hail AEW" post, but hearing Moxley speak candidly about his own character, creative process, and a lot of the finer details of where he thinks the E went wrong only raise my optimism about AEW, assuming they are indeed giving people more creative freedom. As a lot of people have sort of hinted here it is tough to tell what was his idea when he was there, what did he like, what was he just trying to pull off and so on because he kept his head down in the public and he did his work. The interview was not surprising really, but it made pretty clear to me that Moxley - even more so than when he entered the WWE - has a very sharp wrestling mind. When it comes to wrestling people with wrestling minds no one has more firepower than the WWE (look at that roster), but AEW is stockpiling and their willingness to use those minds is the really exciting thing to me. 

Again, this is only because I was cautiously optimistic (with an emphasis on the cautiously) before last weekend and I have really seen nothing but good signs coming from this company so far and getting him signed for multiple years is looking like an even better move to me.

[Boss Rock]

I used to be a huge Ambrose fan but slowly lost interest due to a combination of his ring work and the goofiness of his character. It's somewhat relieving to know he thought pretty much every goofy thing he did was dumb and tried push back. I can only hope being this invigorated outside of the WWE will make both his character and in-ring work that much better.

[SirEdger]

3 hours ago, Afro Steel said:

Great interview. He pulls no punches, but doesn't sound at all bitter. His discontent doesn't sound like it stems from payouts or not being elevated on the card, and I think that helps lend credibility to his account. 

Some standout points for me:

- Sounds like Dean hated a lot of the characteristics of his post-Shield character as we did. Having to say and do things that didn't make him sound unusual; just like an idiot.

- The creative process is totally broken. It all runs through Vince, but the flow and structure of the creative process seems like it's not clear, even to the talent that works there.

- The scripted nature of promos in WWE often fail to help tell a story or move things along. Moxley says something like, "It's just words. I don't even know what I'm talking about" when describing what the average scripted promo given to him was like.

- Being a talent for WWE sounds absolutely draining, mentally and physically. Not necessarily because of the wrestling, but the micromanaging. Jericho says at one point, "The wrestling is the easy part." 

- Moxley's payoff for that final Shield appearance was basically what someone gets just for being in the building on a given night. 

- He's got a great perspective on life in general. He sounds thankful for the experiences of being with WWE, but he's pretty much set financially and can now just focus on renewing his love for wrestling outside of the WWE bubble. Maybe it's because I've had these realizations myself in recent years, but life really does improve a lot when you identify what makes you content and embrace that versus chasing the stereotypical vision of what success looks like. (i.e. piles of money and lots of fancy toys)

And then, you see the promos like Daniel Bryan's (especially those exclusives on YouTube) and Dolph Ziggler's last week after he attacked Kofi Kingston on Smackdown Live and you scratch your head wondering why don't they let everyone cut more organic promos - at least, those who have the ability to do so.

[NintendoLogic]

In fairness, it's a lot easier to not be driven by money when you have no pressing financial obligations. Would he be able to turn down the Million Dollar Man if his house and truck weren't paid off? Regardless, I really want to know what Vince wanted Moxley to say that would have caused sponsors to drop WWE.

[C.S.]

I've seen criticism elsewhere on the web that Moxley was "lazy" - with the "proof" being his appearance on WWE Network Stone Cold Podcast. What those idiots completely missed was that Austin believed that WWE was an environment where people could still speak up, push their creative ideas through, wasn't so micromanaged and overly scripted, etc. like it was in his heyday. Out of respect, Moxley was politely trying to skirt around disagreeing with Austin's outdated perceptions. The irony is, Austin - of all people - should know better after his own issues with "Creative" and subsequent walkout as a result of that. 

[Log]

God, Moxley's situation has so many parallels to my own decision to leave tv news.  I can totally sympathize with the guy.  The stuff about how they have to have their "hands in everything" hit home.  And I would also get physically sick going into work some days like he did.  I would dread going in and hearing what wild-goose-chase, bullshit story I'd get assigned just like he would with the bad writing.  It was also the same deal with anyone speaking up is labeled a troublemaker or a whiner.  Oh man.  

[Afro Steel]

33 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

In fairness, it's a lot easier to not be driven by money when you have no pressing financial obligations. Would he be able to turn down the Million Dollar Man if his house and truck weren't paid off? Regardless, I really want to know what Vince wanted Moxley to say that would have caused sponsors to drop WWE.

OK, but Moxley sounds like a guy of relatively simple means. There are plenty of people who could make great money and still have trouble turning down a big payday (just look at Goldberg, Shawn Michaels, etc. doing those Saudi shows), where as Moxley has attained his idea of financial security and doesn't sound like he can be bothered to compromise his mental well-being for a bigger check.

As for the line, I imagine it being something like that horrid Stephanie McMahon "you're going to die" jab at Freddie Blassie during the Invasion angle.