goodhelmet Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 @The Thread Killer I enjoy the 83 Weeks podcast also... but we have seen an Eric Bischoff led wrestling product in the last 10 years and it sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 well Vince isn't fucking around. This may blow up in the near future but I actually commend him here for taking a chance even if he is going back to old hands. I think the "everything's fine crowd" can finally forfeit now though. This move pretty much solidifies they are worried (at least creatively not financially obviously) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Why do I get the "Russo & Bischoff" are back together on Nitro feel from this ? I mean, that's what it is. A grand announcement of a backstage shift (which the mainstream audience who is flying off doesn't give a fuck about), bringing back guys from the past, in the hopes to get back some hype. Let's see in three months how things have moved (or not) in term of creative. And if you think Vince is not gonna be the guy on top making things happens, especially with two guys he doesn't like in Heyman in Bisch put in those positions, you're probably kidding yourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Hell, this feels more like Bischoff and Russo in TNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 it's all up to Vince in the end but keep in mind Bischoff is a huge Becky Lynch fan/supporter. He's basically been implying the company should build around her on his show. But yeah again all up to Vince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 I dunno, I'be been on record many times saying how much I loved the Nitro era, but the positive feedback on Bischoff baffles me. Remember when Brucie got his dream job back, we heard some positive feedback too stemming from the podcast, how he was old-school and was against scripted promos and such. Ok, what happened ? Zilch. And the product has been nothing short of a disaster, although I highly doubt any blame could have been put on his account for it. I mean, yeah, Bisch is a great storyteller and a true bullshit artist. The notion he's a great, scratch that, a good/decent idea to oversee RAW baffles me (and I have enjoyed the podcast a lot, although not recently because the Meltz bashing has become insufferable, BTW I guess this won't get any better since "Meltz is AEW" and shit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenese Sarwieh Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 I'm going use the wait and see approach because it all boils down to Vince's final word. Kris and Bix had it right from BTS, if you know how to format a wrestling show you will have a job forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 So this obviously pops a curiosity rating for a week or two, but if it's just hyperbole and nothing changes and ratings continue to tank, and the product continues to sink, what's next? Cornette in charge of Raw, and Russo to Smackdown? Desperation changes aren't the answer, and until the people up top realize that, nothing will change. The question becomes what it will take to force them to make that change? Fox cancelling Smackdown due to low viewership? God knows they cancel other highly rated properties. The inevitable quarter where profits are down? Eventually that will happen and they'll release all the people they are hoarding, but what happens if they keep going down. We all joke, but does Vince really have to die for the product to move past the "this is what things were like when we were successful" era? Would that even change it? It's fascinating to watch this company in total panic mode, when they didn't even seem this bent out of shape when WCW was actually trying to put them out of business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 The Alliance won the war! In all honesty, Bischoff in charge of the FOX debut boggles my mind. What's the over/under for Heyman's tenure? 6 months? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 22 minutes ago, Jmare007 said: The Alliance won the war! In all honesty, Bischoff in charge of the FOX debut boggles my mind. What's the over/under for Heyman's tenure? 6 months? I love Twitter Rusev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 6 hours ago, Makai Club #1 said: Now just because they were a success in the past, doesn't mean that they will be be a success now. Bischoff in TNA proved that. 5 hours ago, DMJ said: Bischoff is kind of infamous for not knowing when or how to elevate the young talent he had. Plus, the TNA stint was kind of also infamous for regurgitating old storylines 5 hours ago, goodhelmet said: @The Thread Killer I enjoy the 83 Weeks podcast also... but we have seen an Eric Bischoff led wrestling product in the last 10 years and it sucked. I don't tend to judge Bischoff's creative abilities based on his TNA run for a couple of reasons. Firstly, he was only there because Hogan insisted on it, as a condition of Hogan's coming into TNA. They didn't want Bischoff, and he really didn't want to be there and was only doing it as a favor to Hogan. (And for the money, one would assume.) Once Hogan pretty much vanished from TNA, Bischoff was really only a backstage producer and "creative consultant." It's not like he was in charge of the creative team or anything like that, and he has claimed (true or not) that he could never accomplish anything working for Dixie Carter. That I'd tend to believe, because so many other people had the exact same experience working in TNA. I think Dutch Mantell is a great booker, and he never really got to do everything he could in TNA either. Having said all that, @DMJ has a point about Bischoff regurgitating angles that have worked in the past. The one angle which Bischoff has admitted that he did have extensive creative input into (at the beginning) was the "Aces & Eights" storyline. Bischoff has claimed that he thought that angle started off really well, but went off the rails pretty badly. It doesn't take a booking genius to see that Aces & Eights were basically a re-hash of the nWo, and therein lies the problem. Eric Bischoff has never discussed this publicly that I am aware of, but I have seen Kevin Nash state in more than one interview that Eric Bischoff's theory when it comes to creative is that there are only a small handful of stories that will actually work in the context of Professional Wrestling. I have heard Bischoff say that by it's very nature, Pro Wrestling does limit the kind of stories you can tell. So the theory is, take the proven angles which have worked in the past and use them again successfully: Betrayal (Partner turns on partner, friend turns on friend, student turns on mentor, etc.) Ambition (Contender pursues Champion) Patriotism (USA vs. Foreign Country) Intrigue (Mystery antagonist taunts opponent until being revealed) Invasion (Outsider invades territory) Abuse of Power (Executive or organization abuses authority) Revenge (Protagonist seeks revenge against antagonist for injury/insult etc.) That theory has pretty much been proven when you look at the angles Bischoff did have a hand in, during his time in TNA. I don't think you're going to get anything other than the proven angles out of him, and there is a good chance that they will come across as being re-hashed. Which is fine, so long as you are using good talent and the resulting action is actually of a decent quality. One of my major complaints about WWE for years now, is that they pretty much rely exclusively on the second bullet point listed above (Ambition) or even worse they have no narrative reason whatsoever for any of their main rivalries - wrestlers in WWE fight each other just because. Like I said, Bischoff is not a creative guy. He's overseen creative guys, and done a mediocre job of that at best in the past. The whole basis of his relationship with Vince Russo in WCW was that Turner management wanted to bring Russo back to creative after his disastrous first run. Basically, they wanted to justify the lucrative contract they had given Russo, but they finally realized after three months that Russo couldn't work unless he was being overseen by somebody. That was the sole reason Bischoff got brought back. The first thing Bischoff did was ask Russo to present a written outline of his planned stories for the next six months, and Russo didn't want to do. He probably couldn't do it, because that is not how Crash TV worked. That relationship was pretty much shit from that point onward, and then it ended altogether after Bash at the Beach 2000. I maintain that we still haven't seen what Bischoff can do creatively on his own and I doubt that we will now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Quote Eric Bischoff has never discussed this publicly that I am aware of, but I have seen Kevin Nash state in more than one interview that Eric Bischoff's theory when it comes to creative is that there are only a small handful of stories that will actually work in the context of Professional Wrestling. I have heard Bischoff say that by it's very nature, Pro Wrestling does limit the kind of stories you can tell. So the theory is, take the proven angles which have worked in the past and use them again successfully: Betrayal (Partner turns on partner, friend turns on friend, student turns on mentor, etc.) Ambition (Contender pursues Champion) Patriotism (USA vs. Foreign Country) Intrigue (Mystery antagonist taunts opponent until being revealed) Invasion (Outsider or outsider invades territory) Abuse of Power (Executive or organization abuses authority) Revenge (Protagonist seeks revenge against antagonist for injury/insult etc.) That theory has pretty much been proven when you look at the angles Bischoff did have a hand in, during his time in TNA. I don't think you're going to get anything other than the proven angles out of him, and there is a good chance that they will come across as being re-hashed. Which is fine, so long as you are using good talent and the resulting action is actually of a decent quality. One of my major complaints about WWE for years now, is that they pretty much rely exclusively on the second bullet point listed above (Ambition) or even worse they have no narrative reason whatsoever for any of their main rivalries - wrestlers in WWE fight each other just because. I'm bored so I am going to come up with some others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Also, bringing back Bischoff and giving Heyman more power really does show a complete lack of faith in elevating the people you already have and/or being open to a new direction altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 The one thing that makes me believe that both Bischoff & Heyman will have a relatively good amount of freedom creatively is that I don't think Bischoff would've taken the job if he didn't have a guarantee that he would have creative leeway in the process. Quite frankly, Vince needed Bischoff more than Bischoff needs Vince. I'm genuinely excited for this because there are so many guys on that roster that I wanna see succeed so I'm rooting for those changes. I'm curious to see how long will it take before we see a difference between both shows (and what we've recently seen.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, SirEdger said: The one thing that makes me believe that both Bischoff & Heyman will have a relatively good amount of freedom creatively is that I don't think Bischoff would've taken the job if he didn't have a guarantee that he would have creative leeway in the process. Quite frankly, Vince needed Bischoff more than Bischoff needs Vince. Sure, he could've been promised that but we all know who Vince works. Eventually he'll be trying to get full control even if Heyman and Bischoff were promised he wouldn't. And to be honest, both of those guys are old enough and worked enough with Cokeboy to know no matter what is promised/said/signed with him, he'll revert back to what he wants to do/think is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Just now, goodhelmet said: Also, bringing back Bischoff and giving Heyman more power really does show a complete lack of faith in elevating the people you already have and/or being open to a new direction altogether. Absolutely. I was very surprised by this news. I had always assumed that logically, Vince would turn the reins (or Reigns see what I did there?) to Triple H and Stephanie when the day came that he needed to step back for whatever reason. Vince McMahon bringing back people like Jeff Jarrett, Bruce Prichard, Paul Heyman and Eric Bischoff in 2019 makes little sense to me if he's planning for the future. I suppose the argument could be made that there isn't anybody currently working in WWE who has demonstrated the capability of assuming a greater role, but that is on Vince. He has created and fostered an environment where he is surrounded by yes men and is the final word on every single thing...how was anybody else supposed to distinguish themselves? Then again, if Vince really does need to take a step back due to the XFL, if he doesn't bring in people who have run shows successfully in the past...who does he get if not them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 Fair enough. But when you have the possibility of FOX pulling the plug on Smackdown Live if the ratings still tank, it's worth a shot for Vince to let Bischoff do his thing with the brand. People will say that he's a one-trick poney (NWO) but look at how he handled the Cruiserweight division during the peak of WCW. He can showcase different talents a lot better than people will give him credit for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jmare007 said: Sure, he could've been promised that but we all know who Vince works. Eventually he'll be trying to get full control even if Heyman and Bischoff were promised he wouldn't. And to be honest, both of those guys are old enough and worked enough with Cokeboy to know no matter what is promised/said/signed with him, he'll revert back to what he wants to do/think is right. Exactly. Like I said earlier in this thread, I know it was a long time ago but I keep thinking of Bill Watts in 1995. He was supposedly promised autonomy so Vince could "focus on other projects" and look how long that lasted. Watts has said in interviews since that there is no way that Vince McMahon can be around and not interfere in the running of that organization. He's a control freak, that's his nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 I'm not really interested in making this a WWE vs. AEW thread but there is a difference in philosophy in who is running the show. One is spearheaded by guys in their 30s. The other is going to be run by guys in their 60s/70s. I have no objection bringing in old guys to give feedback... but this feels like a disaster waiting to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 The poop jokes are about to get a whole lot edgier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 As long as Vince is alive, I feel it doesn't matter if they have a council of Eric/Paul/Bill Watts/the ghost of Paul Boesch, the final say will always be with Vince and that means nothing of significance will change. Based on history it seems the best thing we can hope for is a few months of good wrestling before either Eric or Paul (or both) get fed up with the constant micromanaging and tell Vince to shove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Jmare007 said: He's such a goner. Or he's gonna ask for an obscene amount of money to sign that token 5 years deal, and may even get it. Anyway, he's hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clintthecrippler Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 I actually would not be surprised if Bischoff was placed in charge of Smackdown solely to be the liaison with FOX Sports. For the money they are investing you know there will be tons of notes coming from the network, and for all his faults, you damn well Bischoff is much more likely to have the capacity to be diplomatic and conduct himself accordingly in meetings with Network executives than Vince likely would. I am also of the mindset that the grander scheme of things isnt THAT likely to change other than maybe minor touches, and that one of these two is still destined to be out of the picture by the end of the year. If they still have to report to Vince at the end of the day, the old man will still be unable to step on his own toes and interfere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 The problem is Vince, he did the same thing with Bill watts and Bill quit when Vince couldn't give up control and leave him to do his job. There's a view that the 40 script writers are what the issue is with WWE, if you just had one booker or maybe 3 people in a room things would improve. The problem with that idea is we don't know what kind of shows or how watchable WWE would be if Vince just left the writers to do their jobs. It be interesting if he took just three months away and let the writers develop there own idea and story's, just to see what the product ending up looking like. Going to be no different with Eric and Heyman as long as Vince is alive and over seeing everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...TG Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 25 minutes ago, clintthecrippler said: I actually would not be surprised if Bischoff was placed in charge of Smackdown solely to be the liaison with FOX Sports. For the money they are investing you know there will be tons of notes coming from the network, and for all his faults, you damn well Bischoff is much more likely to have the capacity to be diplomatic and conduct himself accordingly in meetings with Network executives than Vince likely would. If this "Executive Director" thing is a shoot position and not another storyline authority figure, this seems like the big reason to bring in Bischoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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