Chris, Nancy, & Daniel Benoit found dead

[Dylan Waco]

There is no "they definitely knew." We don't have definite proof Bin Laden was involved in 9/11. Short of admission or recorded documentation of some sort you have to go on "circumstantial" evidence. That's pretty much how investigative reporting works.

[smkelly]

Not quite, but all this stuff is third-hand information at best. The validity is questionable. "Meltzer reported that he heard from some anonymous dude that he heard from some other anonymous dude that they knew" is the weakest of alleged proof. That's "they might've possibly known", and it's not anywhere near "they definitely knew".

I don't understand what you've been trying to get at Jingus. It is not hard to believe that the WWE knew and still went with what they decided to do irregardless of that knowledge. I mean, as someone pointed out, "Who was going to break into Chris Benoit's house?" Then when it was reported of how they died - which I believe that WWE officials knew before the start of Raw - it shouldn't, which it wasn't, hard to connect the dots and know that something awful had happened and that Chris was responsible for it.

[Jingus]

There is no "they definitely knew." We don't have definite proof Bin Laden was involved in 9/11. Short of admission or recorded documentation of some sort you have to go on "circumstantial" evidence. That's pretty much how investigative reporting works.

That is a horrible comparison. There's tons of proof that Bin Laden was involved in 9/11, starting with the fact that he gleefully took credit for it. The two cases aren't remotely alike.

 

I don't understand what you've been trying to get at Jingus. It is not hard to believe that the WWE knew and still went with what they decided to do irregardless of that knowledge. I mean, as someone pointed out, "Who was going to break into Chris Benoit's house?" Then when it was reported of how they died - which I believe that WWE officials knew before the start of Raw - it shouldn't, which it wasn't, hard to connect the dots and know that something awful had happened and that Chris was responsible for it.

That's still playing guessing-games. What does "who was going to break into Chris Benoit's house" mean? A stranger breaking into a house and killing a whole family is actually more common than a guy going crazy and killing his own family. There are many more examples of the former than the latter. It's not unreasonable to think that the company might have believed, upon hearing that it looked like people had been murdered, that an outside party might've done it. Hell, look at the Maryse stalker thing now. Celebrities do get murdered at a higher rate than your average civilian.

 

And to be very clear, I'm not saying that they didn't know. They very well might have. What I'm saying is that I still haven't heard anything which convinces me that they knew. And knowing the people involved, it doesn't make any sense that they'd deliberately produce a tribute show to a man they knew to be a despicable murderer.

[Loss]

There is no "they definitely knew." We don't have definite proof Bin Laden was involved in 9/11. Short of admission or recorded documentation of some sort you have to go on "circumstantial" evidence. That's pretty much how investigative reporting works.

That is a horrible comparison. There's tons of proof that Bin Laden was involved in 9/11, starting with the fact that he gleefully took credit for it. The two cases aren't remotely alike.

Al Qaeda has taken credit for many things they had nothing to do with. I don't doubt Bin Laden is behind 9/11, but using his word as the main point isn't why. Dave Meltzer has more credibility on pro wrestling than Osama bin Laden has on world events. This is also worth mentioning:

 

Dave did not have a conversation with some anonymous source after the tribute aired who said they knew in advance. Dave himself was told before the show aired that they knew. And his source? Someone who works in WWE. You don't need to know who the person is to lend credibility to that.

 

It's not unreasonable to think that the company might have believed, upon hearing that it looked like people had been murdered, that an outside party might've done it. Hell, look at the Maryse stalker thing now. Celebrities do get murdered at a higher rate than your average civilian.

 

And to be very clear, I'm not saying that they didn't know. They very well might have. What I'm saying is that I still haven't heard anything which convinces me that they knew. And knowing the people involved, it doesn't make any sense that they'd deliberately produce a tribute show to a man they knew to be a despicable murderer.

I think it's just what you said -- they thought an outside party did it because they couldn't bring themselves to admit that it was Benoit. It's not something that is especially important as time goes on, but Chris Benoit's reputation in pro wrestling prior to all of this is relevant to this discussion. The guy was held in pretty high regard. I simply think they refused to accept that Benoit was responsible for this, even though deep down, they knew better.

 

I look at it very similarly to the company not canceling Over The Edge after Owen died. I tend not to fault the company too much in either case. Was it a poor decision, on both counts? Yes. Absolutely. But few people think clearly when something of that magnitude has happened, so it's not a huge issue to me. It's a forgivable mistake.

 

Not admitting later on when everyone involved is removed from the immediacy of the situation that it was a bad decision was made in haste is a far bigger issue to me. In both cases, they should have issued a public apology, but instead, they tried to defend their actions. And "defensive" is not a good color on WWE, although they like to wear it.

[Dylan Waco]

Actually the known instances of Bin Laden taking credit for 9/11 are all highly disputed by intelligence officials and people in the know. The one tape where he allegedly took credit was released after he had made numerous denials and it's authenticity has been the subject of intense debate since it emerged. The other big "admission" is based on the word of a reporter who claims Bin Laden denied the attacks on tape to him, had him turn off the tape and then took credit (certainly no worse than Meltzer's anonymous source in the Benoit story). Much of the rest of the strongest evidence against him was gleaned as a direct result of torture.

 

For the record I am not now and have never been a "truther," and think at bare minimum Bin Laden was aware of the plan to carry out the attacks beforehand. The point is that you can play professional skeptic and dismiss just about anything.

[NintendoLogic]

I certainly wouldn't consider the WWE being above doing a tribute show to someone they at least strongly suspected was a murderer. The only thing that gets me is what their motivation might have been. With other instances of documented McMahon sociopathy, there's some conceivable benefit to be derived. I mean, it's clear why Linda would try to act like she hardly knew Lance Cade. For Benoit, though, I can't think of anything.

[Jingus]

Dave did not have a conversation with some anonymous source after the tribute aired who said they knew in advance. Dave himself was told before the show aired that they knew. And his source? Someone who works in WWE. You don't need to know who the person is to lend credibility to that.

Yeah, I know, that's the one strongest piece of proof from someone who has nothing to gain by lying. But it could still easily have involved the source pulling something out of their ass, or the source disagreeing with the company's hope that Benoit wasn't the perpetrator. It's proof that one unnamed guy claimed he knew, not that the entire WWE office were clued into the facts.

 

I look at it very similarly to the company not canceling Over The Edge after Owen died.

Actually, they're almost complete opposites. At Over The Edge, Vince froze. He didn't know what to do, so he essentially took no action and allowed the show to continue as planned. He was afraid of the financial repercussions if he cancelled the show. With the tribute show, he took the other choice and did indeed cancel the show, turning away all the fans and airing mostly a bunch of old clips.

 

Actually the known instances of Bin Laden taking credit for 9/11 are all highly disputed by intelligence officials and people in the know. The one tape where he allegedly took credit was released after he had made numerous denials and it's authenticity has been the subject of intense debate since it emerged.

That was the only video tape, yeah, but there's no real sign that it's a fake. And OBL admitted to it in several audio tapes as well, most of which were verified. And there was that other tape showing him in person with two of the 9/11 hijackers and apparently helping to plan the attacks, which strengthens the case even more.

 

The only thing that gets me is what their motivation might have been. With other instances of documented McMahon sociopathy, there's some conceivable benefit to be derived.

Yeah. Vince is usually a pretty predictable guy, and generally doesn't do anything unless it 1.makes him money, or 2.strokes his ego. Deliberately broadcasting a tribute show to a psychopathic murderer fits in neither one of those categories. From the WWE's point of view, what's the upside in doing the tribute if they knew Benoit did it? There seems to be nothing to gain, and everything to lose. It's so out of character for Vince to knowingly take such a stupid risk. This isn't like one of those boneheaded pipe dreams he gets about projects which were doomed to fail, this is paying a glowing tribute to a guy who (they allegedly knew) would soon be giving the WWE the worst press it's ever had.

[Blehschmidt]

I've read this whole thread, and I still don't understand the Dave Taylor thing.

 

Why was he there?

[flyonthewall2983]

I seem to remember hearing he was their neighbor.

[smkelly]

I actually downplayed the quote by forgetting more than half of it...

 

"There was already suspicion backstage about Benoit's guilt: who the hell is going to be tough enough to break into Chris Benoit's house and kill him?"

Ring of Hell

 

I've always read that as an admission of instant knowledge that something was amiss and did not fall under general circumstances.

 

I would.

 

And I did.

[Bix]

Honestly, show of hands: Who DIDN'T think it was most likely a murder-suicide upon hearing the whole family died, and if so, why? Even carbon monoxide poisoning, what we were all "hoping" it would be, would, in hindsight, have a strong likelihood of being a murder-suicide. When I heard Chris Benoit died, I figured he had a wrestler heart attack. When I heard his whole family died, I figured there was a small likelihood of it being CO poisoning but was most likely Chris snapping. It's a discussion we've never really had here since Loss (rightfully) restricted the discussion until the preliminary police determination came in.

 

Watching Raw that night actually made me even more sure that it was Chris as family annihilator based on Regal and Chavo's tribute videos.

 

I can't remember if I've ever posted this here or if it's something I've just said to Loss on IM, but I think a lot of wrestling fans just couldn't process what happened on an emotional level and at that point, either you tried to stay as coldly analytical/intellectual as possible or shut down and went into denial.

[Ronnie]

Honestly, show of hands: Who DIDN'T think it was most likely a murder-suicide upon hearing the whole family died, and if so, why?

The thought never entered my head when I was told that Benoit and his family were all dead. Sue me, but the first port of call for my brain isn't the then-unthinkable-to-me notion that a father murdered his seven-year-old, especially when I had this idea that I was familiar with him to some degree. Not when there's the alternative that someone came in and gunned them all down in, say, a burglary that went wrong.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I gotta be honest, my first thought was carbon monoxide poisoning. When I first heard that it was "family found dead"...that seemed to be the logical idea to me.

 

Because immediately jumping to the most horrific thing just isn't my mindset about anything. Nothing to do with "wrestling fandom" or "not being able to process" whatever.

[smkelly]

Honestly, show of hands: Who DIDN'T think it was most likely a murder-suicide upon hearing the whole family died, and if so, why?

My first thought was carbon monoxide poisoning as well because it was said that his wife or someone was ill.

 

But that thought was replaced by, "Benoit never misses a show," and "Benoit wouldn't miss a show for his wife no matter how ill she was." Then, I got online and my worst fear was validated almost immediately when I read about how the family had been found. I knew it was Chris from that moment. So in about a half hour I went from thinking they died from poisoning to knowing that Benoit had done it himself. There was no other logical choice to choose.

[sek69]

I thought carbon monoxide too when I first found out the family was dead, but something about the tribute show just struck me as odd. I don't know if it was Regal looking like he was hit with a bat in his tribute video, or Chavo acting like the nervous perp in every prime time cop drama ever in his.

 

Some of the theories being suggested were so ridiculous (Nancy killed Daniel, and Chris was so distraught at this he killer her in a rage!) that the lengths some were going in order to keep some semblance of Benoit the Hero would have been comical if they weren't so sad.

[rovert]

I have to say I woke up at 6am my time to watch Raw before work and as soon as I saw his wife & child I intuitively thought murder suicide (with Phil Hartman as a reference point).

[Mad Dog]

I thought carbon monoxide too when I first found out the family was dead, but something about the tribute show just struck me as odd. I don't know if it was Regal looking like he was hit with a bat in his tribute video, or Chavo acting like the nervous perp in every prime time cop drama ever in his.

 

Some of the theories being suggested were so ridiculous (Nancy killed Daniel, and Chris was so distraught at this he killer her in a rage!) that the lengths some were going in order to keep some semblance of Benoit the Hero would have been comical if they weren't so sad.

The Kevin Sullivan one was really the worst of those theories.

 

I don't remember what I thought at first. I think I was on the carbon monoxide train as well. But I think I found out about it at work and really didn't put much thought into it until I got home that night. Then I tuned into Raw and the murmurs started online. Once I saw that police suspected Benoit did it, I knew he did. It was the only thing that made sense.

 

I tend to find the Tribute show as kind of a karma payback for making people work in the dent Owen's corpse left in the ring and for their self-indulgent 9/11 show personally.

[kjh]

I think it must be remembered that we knew a lot less about the situation than WWE management. They had knowledge of his recent bizarre behaviour, the strange excuse for missing the house show and his final text messages. People don't send those type of texts late at night if they're about to be accidentally poisoned or be murdered by an intruder.

[tigerpride]

Honestly, show of hands: Who DIDN'T think it was most likely a murder-suicide upon hearing the whole family died, and if so, why? Even carbon monoxide poisoning, what we were all "hoping" it would be, would, in hindsight, have a strong likelihood of being a murder-suicide. When I heard Chris Benoit died, I figured he had a wrestler heart attack. When I heard his whole family died, I figured there was a small likelihood of it being CO poisoning but was most likely Chris snapping. It's a discussion we've never really had here since Loss (rightfully) restricted the discussion until the preliminary police determination came in.

 

Watching Raw that night actually made me even more sure that it was Chris as family annihilator based on Regal and Chavo's tribute videos.

 

I can't remember if I've ever posted this here or if it's something I've just said to Loss on IM, but I think a lot of wrestling fans just couldn't process what happened on an emotional level and at that point, either you tried to stay as coldly analytical/intellectual as possible or shut down and went into denial.

I also thought it was carbon monoxide. Who thinks Chris Benoit is going to kill his family?

[Jingus]

"There was already suspicion backstage about Benoit's guilt: who the hell is going to be tough enough to break into Chris Benoit's house and kill him?"

Ring of Hell

That's not logic, that's the typical wrestler egotism of thinking that wrestlers are the toughest people on the planet. And forgetting that this is a world where guns exist, too.

 

Another thing: how did the WWE know it was a murder-suicide even before the cops were telling anyone else about that fact? Immediately jumping to that conclusion is a hell of a leap, no matter how weird Benoit had been acting. Did they have some kind of unknown source of information, a leak in the police department, or something like that?

[Dylan Waco]

I got about ten text messages at once that day and then my wife called. As soon as she said "his whole family is dead" I immediately said to her "he killed them." I don't know if I really believed it 100% but I immediately thought that was the most likely turn of events.

[S.L.L.]

At the moment, I was too shell-shocked over the "what" to really seriously think about the "why". My friends and I all agreed on carbon monoxide simply because it felt like the easiest "go-to" explanation for us, but even that still seemed wrong somehow, though I wasn't quite ready to think about how. Watching the show that night, the thought that Chris was more sinister than we were giving him credit for started to sneak up on us. It actually wasn't so much the Regal or Chavo tributes (though they helped put things in perspective afterwords) as it was all the mentions of how well-behaved Daniel was backstage at shows and the image that developed of Benoit as a strict, somewhat domineering father, which quickly turned into something worse. By the time I read confirmation of what really happened, I didn't know, but it no longer shocked me.

[MikeCampbell]

I wasn't thinking carbon monoxide specifically, but it was something along those lines. Before the murder/suicide thing really came out. It was just listed as the family was dead and Benoit said he wasn't making the show due to "family issues." I figured some kind of food poisoning or virus or something along those lines. Thinking about it, four years later, it sounds really silly and naive of me.

[flyonthewall2983]

I was thinking of something along the lines of a home invasion gone wrong. I wasn't aware of Chris' prior domestic abuse charge, so that's what made the most sense at the time.

[FLIK]

Don't really remember what I thought at first, I found out relatively late, I think reading the news on the DVD boards actually. Probably went something along the lines of Benoit is dead? Sad, usual wrestler death I guess ---> Whole family dead? Car accident maybe? ----> All killed/what really happened. Oh shit, don't know what to think.

 

At which point I pretty much stoped reading any msg board or news post about it except for what Meltzer wrote in the Observer.