Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists

[sek69]

Also it's mentioned in today's update that they are wanting to do the Virgil/DiBiase angle with Cena where he is forced to do Nexus' bidding until he snaps. I guess they just can't pull the trigger on the heel turn for him. I can't imagine the 5-10 year old demographic being that lucrative considering they have no money of their own to spend.

 

By the way, was Tarver just written out of the Nexus last night? Barrett had that line about Cena doing him a favor since he was thinking about getting rid of him, and then they just never mentioned it again. Husky and Joe Hennig are a huge upgrade anyway so I guess it doesn't matter.

[sek69]

Can someone summarsize the Cena angle? Is he acting like a wimp in it? That could be a dangerous thing to do especially since from what I've seen and heard, Cena has for the most part been the opposite of a wimp.

 

He's not being a wimp, if he doesn't do what Nexus (or specifically Wade Barrett) tell him to do the Anonymous GM will fire him. Being in the WWE means so much to Cena he's sucking it up and doing what he's told even though you can see he doesn't want to.

[Loss]

Someone remind me why Dave briefly gave him a column in the actual WON years ago.

I'd much rather see a return of Booking with Bowdren.

[rzombie1988]

I have no idea as to what Ben was talking about in his article.

[Phil Schneider]

Someone remind me why Dave briefly gave him a column in the actual WON years ago.

Yeah that article was Geno Mrosko level terrible

[kjh]

The column is now free: http://www.f4wonline.com/content/view/17815/

 

The JBL vs. Shawn Michaels feud of early 2009 was a prime example of this failure. The angle was similar to the John Cena/Wade Barrett angle in that the babyface was in a situation where their livelihood depended on the approval of an enemy heel. The blowoff match to the former feud was the semi-main event of No Way Out 2009, a show which saw the worldwide buyrate drop 17% from the previous year. At the time, the poor business performance was blamed on everything from the economy to people not believing that Shawn Michaels could be broke. The true reason was the same reason that today’s version will do middling business: people won’t pay to see wussies.

Just because a match goes on second to last doesn't make it the "semi-main event". I suppose no-one paid to see the Smackdown Elimination Chamber match, given that it opened the show.

[tigerpride]

Yea, that angle where Mick Foley walked out on Randy Orton sucked as well.

 

I thought RAW was tremendous

[MikeCampbell]

The only problem I have, for now, with the Cena angle is that he was still wearing the CENATION shirt, hat, and wristbands.

 

Sek, I'm pretty sure Tarver is out (now they just need to drop Otunga), since Barrett's comment included the line that he wanted to get rid of him anyway.

[S.L.L.]

Nowhere in storytelling does it state that a man must degrade himself, or beg for one last chance, or wallow in self-pity.

Yeah. Like that fucking hack Shakespeare, for example. That idiot always made his protagonists doubt themselves and commit unspeakably horrible acts. Clearly he didn't know anything about storytelling. The Tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark would have totally been better if the babyface had just Hammed Up and kicked the heel's ass, instead of whining about all his insecurities for three hours in a row.

 

You know, I have mentioned several times on message boards that It's a Wonderful Life flopped on it's initial release. I'm not sure that was specifically because George Bailey didn't just toss his brother back into the river like a real man, sell the Savings & Loan to Mr. Potter, and go off to college like he wanted to, but still, maybe Ben will come around to the angle in 30 years. Seriously, sacrifice being presented as a noble trait in storytelling? The hero being brought low to increase dramatic power when he rises to his greatest heights? What kind of zaniness is that?

[Resident Evil]

You're obsessed with It's A Wonderful Life S.L.L

 

As a tidbit just for you, on one of the episodes of Batman TAS they reference it in a hilarious comedy spot.

 

Okay, I'm watching a quick summary of the angle here. I like it. I especially liked it when Cena double crossed the Nexus at the end of Raw? The battle Royal with Cena going over the top rope at the end was compelling and interesting but I also must say Yes, it did make Cena look like a wimp. I am using wimp here as definied by mother nature. Yeah, Cena will come through at the end and be a hero. People like to see their heros come back once they see chinks in their armour since they can relate to that (Superman is too hard to relate to sometimes) and it can once again get them to appreciate the hero's efforts. In the end, he will look like a hero unless he goes heel or something but he really did look like a wimp at the end of the royal. They gotta be careful here. Kids, DVDVR smarks and the girls/women all look to him as a hero and seeing how dissapointed they were in the crowd made me think twice about turning Cena wimpy. I wouldn't have wanted the Ultimate Warrior or Bret Hart or Titio Santana to do this when I was a youngster

[Grimmas]

How was he wimpy? He had the choice of losing the match or being fired. How is choosing not to be fired a wimpy choice?

[tomk]

How was he wimpy? He had the choice of losing the match or being fired. How is choosing not to be fired a wimpy choice?

Was “Stone Cold” Steve Austin ever afraid of being “fired”?

Would the threat of firing him keep him from still coming in and beating the heel boss?

Even if fired, security would need to be hired to keep Austin away from beating heels.

Firing him wasn't going to get rid of him; the only way to get of him was to beat him.

 

That is the logic of wrestling. Compromising by choosing to avoid conflict instead of escalating it is the act of a wimp.

 

Cena is a guy who has fans among women and kids but struggles to appeal to emotionally crippled males like Resident Evil who struggle to mask their fear of women and the vulnerably of childhood. You shouldn't build a fed around appealing to Resident Evil. But the socially inept barely hiding their fear of their impotent weaknesses behind embrace of power fantasies is an important part of the audience.

[Resident Evil]

How was he wimpy? He had the choice of losing the match or being fired. How is choosing not to be fired a wimpy choice?

Was “Stone Cold” Steve Austin ever afraid of being “fired”?

Would the threat of firing him keep him from still coming in and beating the heel boss?

Even if fired, security would need to be hired to keep Austin away from beating heels.

Firing him wasn't going to get rid of him; the only way to get of him was to beat him.

 

That is the logic of wrestling. Compromising by choosing to avoid conflict instead of escalating it is the act of a wimp.

 

Cena is a guy who has fans among women and kids but struggles to appeal to emotionally crippled males like Resident Evil who struggle to mask their fear of women and the vulnerably of childhood. You shouldn't build a fed around appealing to Resident Evil. But the socially inept barely hiding their fear of their impotent weaknesses behind embrace of power fantasies is an important part of the audience.

 

HaHa. Good one. I got a smile out of it

 

Just wanted to note for the record that I like a lof of the qualities Cena has. Some qualities I don't. Austin's character actually had wimpish aspects too.

 

Also, several companies built a fed around appealing to Resident Evil!

[Jingus]

During the whole McMahon/Austin thing, they at least came up with a series of excuses for why Vince wouldn't just fire Stone Cold. Ever since then, the whole "YOU'RE FIRRRRRRRRRRRED" thing has been relatively protected as meaning something. It's not a perfect track record, but over the past few years I can't think of many moments where they fired someone only to immediately bring them back. Cena's legions of grade-school fans didn't grow up with firing and retirement stipulations being as commonly abused and devalued as in earlier generations.

[Resident Evil]

During the whole McMahon/Austin thing, they at least came up with a series of excuses for why Vince wouldn't just fire Stone Cold. Ever since then, the whole "YOU'RE FIRRRRRRRRRRRED" thing has been relatively protected as meaning something. It's not a perfect track record, but over the past few years I can't think of many moments where they fired someone only to immediately bring them back. Cena's legions of grade-school fans didn't grow up with firing and retirement stipulations being as commonly abused and devalued as in earlier generations.

Yes, Cena should be reading his history books!

[Loss]

Cena has got to be the most hands-off top star they've ever had, in the sense that I've never heard of him shooting anything -- at all -- down, when honestly, his appeal has dwindled so much over the last year and a half or so that he should probably start protecting himself a little bit more, mainly so they'll stop scripting those cutesy promos that are just killing him.

[KrisZ]

Listening to the Bryan & Vinny show from last night and it always amuses me to hear them complain about the fans reacting positively for something that they think they shouldn't be and saying that wrestling fans are stupid. They were talking about the WWE guys attacking the NEXUS guys during the Cena/Barrett match at HIAC.

[Matt D]

Cena has got to be the most hands-off top star they've ever had, in the sense that I've never heard of him shooting anything -- at all -- down, when honestly, his appeal has dwindled so much over the last year and a half or so that he should probably start protecting himself a little bit more, mainly so they'll stop scripting those cutesy promos that are just killing him.

The fans do seem to go nuts whenever he gives someone (Young, Tarver) an absolute mauling though, which is something I never remember him doing much in years past.

[ohtani's jacket]

Nowhere in storytelling does it state that a man must degrade himself, or beg for one last chance, or wallow in self-pity.

Yeah. Like that fucking hack Shakespeare, for example. That idiot always made his protagonists doubt themselves and commit unspeakably horrible acts. Clearly he didn't know anything about storytelling. The Tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark would have totally been better if the babyface had just Hammed Up and kicked the heel's ass, instead of whining about all his insecurities for three hours in a row.

 

Wrestling isn't Hamlet. It's not A Wonderful Life, either. It doesn't even have the depth of a comic book. The trouble with the WWE is that you have these writers who want to write for film or TV who've read all the right books or graduated from college writing courses and want to write all these "great" stories in a medium that doesn't let itself well to depth in storytelling and is not properly serviced by it. Look at the angles that people brought up in Dean's WWF thread on DVDVR: they were all simple and direct. A lot of great promos, strong characterisations and decent narratives, but none of this bullshit you see with ham actors like Shawn Michaels making that patented Shawn Michaels look of concern. The WWE became so EMO last decade (for want of a far better word.) Way too many promos about people's feelings.

[Loss]

This is very, very true.

 

Part of this is wrestling's shift away from emphasizing feuds between two people who don't like each other, one of which usually holds a championship belt.

 

Wrestling seems like the easiest thing in the world to do right (in terms of booking), but I think there's a sense of self-importance and job justification with writers that leads to them needlessly complicating things so they can be "creative" or "innovative".

 

I'm not talking about bigger concepts. There still needs to be some united vision between the booking and wrestling of a promotion that knows its identity and presents a style that fits that vision and that people connect with, which is more the job of the promoter. I'm just talking about the granular details of booking, which tend to get bogged down in overthought and people trying too hard to be clever.

[Log]

Cena has got to be the most hands-off top star they've ever had, in the sense that I've never heard of him shooting anything -- at all -- down, when honestly, his appeal has dwindled so much over the last year and a half or so that he should probably start protecting himself a little bit more, mainly so they'll stop scripting those cutesy promos that are just killing him.

The fans do seem to go nuts whenever he gives someone (Young, Tarver) an absolute mauling though, which is something I never remember him doing much in years past.

 

I was very surprised at how nuts the crowd went during the Tarver/Cena tag match. Even for little things like when Cena would short-arm the tag. Then they really got into the beatdown after the match. I think it shows that that's the Cena they want to see. That original character from when he first turned face. More "Stone Cold-ish" I guess.

[Matt D]

Cena has got to be the most hands-off top star they've ever had, in the sense that I've never heard of him shooting anything -- at all -- down, when honestly, his appeal has dwindled so much over the last year and a half or so that he should probably start protecting himself a little bit more, mainly so they'll stop scripting those cutesy promos that are just killing him.

The fans do seem to go nuts whenever he gives someone (Young, Tarver) an absolute mauling though, which is something I never remember him doing much in years past.

 

I was very surprised at how nuts the crowd went during the Tarver/Cena tag match. Even for little things like when Cena would short-arm the tag. Then they really got into the beatdown after the match. I think it shows that that's the Cena they want to see. That original character from when he first turned face. More "Stone Cold-ish" I guess.

 

Should we start wearing "P.S. Was Right" shirts then?

[S.L.L.]

Nowhere in storytelling does it state that a man must degrade himself, or beg for one last chance, or wallow in self-pity.

Yeah. Like that fucking hack Shakespeare, for example. That idiot always made his protagonists doubt themselves and commit unspeakably horrible acts. Clearly he didn't know anything about storytelling. The Tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark would have totally been better if the babyface had just Hammed Up and kicked the heel's ass, instead of whining about all his insecurities for three hours in a row.

 

Wrestling isn't Hamlet. It's not A Wonderful Life, either. It doesn't even have the depth of a comic book. The trouble with the WWE is that you have these writers who want to write for film or TV who've read all the right books or graduated from college writing courses and want to write all these "great" stories in a medium that doesn't let itself well to depth in storytelling and is not properly serviced by it. Look at the angles that people brought up in Dean's WWF thread on DVDVR: they were all simple and direct. A lot of great promos, strong characterisations and decent narratives, but none of this bullshit you see with ham actors like Shawn Michaels making that patented Shawn Michaels look of concern. The WWE became so EMO last decade (for want of a far better word.) Way too many promos about people's feelings.

 

I'm the last guy in the world who's going to argue that wrestling storytelling is/should be deep. But then, I don't think "hero must make a sacrifice" or "hero is brought low before reaching greater heights" are really deep storytelling concepts. They're actually incredibly basic. It's just that Shakespeare and Capra get to explore those ideas in depth with talented actors, whereas in wrestling, they're surface-level motivation for not so talented actors to beat the fuck out of each other. Pretty much every major Bret Hart angle of the 90's was about him as George Bailey-esque everyman concerned about his family. The important thing is that it all makes you want to see him get in the ring with someone. I guess that's the most obvious problem with this or any "babyface forced to be heel's lackey" angle. The only fights this creates that you want to see are Cena vs. other Nexus guys, specifically a rematch with Barrett. That would seem to be the logical conclusion to all of this, but what's happening in the mean time that we should care about? This isn't Sting in the rafters. Cena is going to be called upon to do something between now and whenever he gets out of Nexus. What match does Cena have as an unwilling member of Nexus that we want to see? And how do you do it without making him look like a wimp or a heel? "Hero is brought low" isn't the problem. It's to what end.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Ben Miller is an idiot who doesn't understand storytelling independently of whether or not this angle is any good.

[Loss]

Was “Stone Cold” Steve Austin ever afraid of being “fired”?

Not arguing with your overall point, but yes.

 

Vince threatened him and HHH with firing (or just canceling the match, don't remember which) if they had any physical altercations in the build to No Way Out. They did a few drawn out segments where Austin pondered whether to attack HHH and ultimately didn't because he didn't want to miss out on the PPV match.

 

But HHH feuds are exceptions to a lot of rules on how babyfaces and heels are typically booked.

[MikeCampbell]

Vince threatened to fire Austin if he messed up the Judgment Day '98 Taker/Kane match for the WWF Title where Austin was special ref. He still stunned them both and called himself the winner.