The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[PhilTLL]

On 5/27/2020 at 5:03 PM, cactus said:

I'd like to hear him cover more ROH stuff too. Some of the stuff in the Double or Nothing review made me cringe. Brian Last going on how wrestling isn't meant to be fun, Corny whinging about how they wasted weapons on a women's match, it's starting to become too much for me. For every few good points he makes, he has to follow it up with a shit take.

Their contention is that AEW and a lot of other modern wrestling is too silly, goofy, self-effacing, farcical, etc, not that wrestling "isn't meant to be fun." With AEW specifically, Brian hates that they originally promised to be more serious, but have become goofier than WWE.

[sek69]

Did they ever promise that? I only recall them promising to listen to the fans and be an alternative to people not interested and/or turned off by what WWE was offering. 

 

[Loss]

In the same way Cornette is mad at Jim Ross because he feels like he should have walked out on AEW over Stadium Stampede (seriously!), I'm mad at Cornette for having become impossible to defend.

[PhilTLL]

2 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Did they ever promise that? I only recall them promising to listen to the fans and be an alternative to people not interested and/or turned off by what WWE was offering. 

 

I don't actually know if they did or not.

[Loss]

This was from one of their first press releases:

 

"Focused on producing fast-paced, high-impact competitions, AEW Offers fans less scripted, soapy drama, and more athleticism and real sports analytics, bringing [a] legitimacy to wrestling that it has not previously had. Wrestlers will also be given more freedom to explore their characters and highlight their athletic abilities. Introducing statistics to wrestling for the first time ever, AEW will raise the stakes for its matches and deepen fan engagement by tracking each competitor’s wins and losses as the wrestlers pursue championships, analyzing their moves, assessing damage to their opponents, and providing insights into their winning streaks."

[Loss]

It's just a ridiculous argument that bothers me because it's not even true about his era. Real sports wouldn't have guys with masks. They would all use their real names, managers interfering would be suspended by the company, attacks during interviews or after matches would be treated as criminal assault, and no one would get their face shoved in a birthday cake. The gaga is what makes wrestling fun and his era had plenty of it, much of it involving him! I think there are arguments that wrestling should be internally consistent and I definitely agree with those. I also think in spite of that, moments that unsuspend your disbelief are bad, just like they would be in any scripted form of entertainment. But he is nostalgic for an era that never even existed. 

[Big Pete]

8 hours ago, C.S. said:

Did Cornette say Kenny King was lazy, or is that your own commentary? If Cornette said it, referring to a black man lazy is not exactly the best look, whether he meant it in a racial way or not - and it's becoming harder and harder to give the wildly out of touch "it was a starvation joke" Cornette the benefit of the doubt on things like this.

That was my own interpretation.

I just listened to the clip again, Cornette said Rhett did all the work, while Kenny only wrestled once every three weeks and shook his dick in Las Vegas. He called him a lying sack of shit, a mud-show wrestler and he didn't apply himself full-time so he always remained fairly awkward while Rhett was always digging in.

[Robert S]

3 hours ago, Loss said:

(...) Real sports wouldn't have guys with masks. They would all use their real names, managers interfering would be suspended by the company, attacks during interviews or after matches would be treated as criminal assault, and no one would get their face shoved in a birthday cake. (...)

While you are obviously right in principle, I would contest the "real names" thing. The first counterexamples coming to mind are Sumo and Brazilian Football (Soccer).

[C.S.]

3 hours ago, Big Pete said:

That was my own interpretation.

I just listened to the clip again, Cornette said Rhett did all the work, while Kenny only wrestled once every three weeks and shook his dick in Las Vegas. He called him a lying sack of shit, a mud-show wrestler and he didn't apply himself full-time so he always remained fairly awkward while Rhett was always digging in.

What is the context of this? Was Kenny King a stripper or prostitute?

[Rah]

54 minutes ago, C.S. said:

What is the context of this? Was Kenny King a stripper or prostitute?

He is/was a Chippendale's dancer. Well, he appeared in the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills as one when they went to Vegas.

[El-P]

8 hours ago, Loss said:

In the same way Cornette is mad at Jim Ross because he feels like he should have walked out on AEW over Stadium Stampede (seriously!), I'm mad at Cornette for having become impossible to defend.

The issue with Cornette is that he's got the emotional balance of a 3 years old. 

[Laz]

12 hours ago, Loss said:

I think there are arguments that wrestling should be internally consistent and I definitely agree with those. I also think in spite of that, moments that unsuspend your disbelief are bad, just like they would be in any scripted form of entertainment. But he is nostalgic for an era that never even existed. 

Agree wholly on this part. I've no issue with talent making jokes or having goofy promos or gimmicks, but when the match itself becomes one big gag then I tune out.

That's why I can watch Hoodslam, PWG, and other "silly" companies and be fine, but then hate that the match that follows a crazed brawl where blood is shed feels like a lame mid-career Jim Carrey flick.

This, though, is also how Corny defended his own tomfoolery. He'd make jokes and show ass and be the butt of the gag, but he wouldn't do it at the expense of wrestling as a whole. I also agree with that approach in almost all art forms, as even a band like Gwar understood the music had to still be of a certain quality and filmmakers like Lloyd Kaufman take the actual artform seriously.

[Log]

12 hours ago, Loss said:

It's just a ridiculous argument that bothers me because it's not even true about his era. Real sports wouldn't have guys with masks. They would all use their real names, managers interfering would be suspended by the company, attacks during interviews or after matches would be treated as criminal assault, and no one would get their face shoved in a birthday cake. The gaga is what makes wrestling fun and his era had plenty of it, much of it involving him! I think there are arguments that wrestling should be internally consistent and I definitely agree with those. I also think in spite of that, moments that unsuspend your disbelief are bad, just like they would be in any scripted form of entertainment. But he is nostalgic for an era that never even existed. 

Yeah, there's already an actual sport of wrestling.  I don't want to watch that.  I'll take Matt Hardy in the pool any day over the real thing.

(Please understand that I think amateur wrestlers are some of the most amazing athletes on Earth.  I'm not dismissing it as a sport.  I just don't personally find it very entertaining.)

[The Thread Killer]

On 5/20/2020 at 10:45 PM, Loss said:

When I saw that Brian Last presented him with a listener question asking if Otis was the modern Dusty Rhodes, all I could think was, "Please stop trolling."

 

On 5/22/2020 at 3:13 AM, Bix said:

The original idea was Brian, being Jim's friend, having a strong knowledge of old school wrestling, and having a good memory for what Jim's discussed on past shows/shoot interviews, would be the ideal co-host to keep Jim talking about the stuff he loves and out of angry ranting mode.

Then AEW launched and Jim's rants stuck a nerve with a specific subset of fans, resulting in the show's popularity exploding. So they're never gonna go back to the old, better format because it's been the much less lucrative one.

The issue of Brian Last basically trying to provoke Cornette into having one of his AEW inspired tantrums was never more obvious than it was this past week on the Drive-Thru.  At one point during the podcast, Brian Last made the claim that the size of Jim Cornette's audience and AEW's audience are actually comparable. I assume this is based on downloads and YouTube stats. I was fairly shocked to hear that claim, but I am prepared to believe it since it is the kind of thing that could easily disproved if Brian Last gets challenged on it.  Last later said that the show is becoming so popular that it is getting hard to keep track of all the questions from fans that are coming in for the Drive-Thru. Then, Cornette reviews AEW Double or Nothing, and hated it so much that he has pretty much sworn off watching AEW from this point on.  They decide to answer a few fan questions, and the FIRST question Brian Last selects out of the countless thousands submitted is:

"What are Jim's thoughts on AEW's new line of footwear?"

Just blatant nonsense.

I have to wonder if Brian Last is a bit worried that Cornette is actually going to stay true to his word and stop watching and reviewing AEW.  If Cornette meant it, that means a large part of Cornette's newer and more vocal fanbase are going to be turned off.  All these new fans seem to want to hear is Cornette constantly cussing AEW, as @Bix mentioned.  If they don't get it, I wonder if the newer fans will go elsewhere.  I can't see those newer "fans" wanting to hear stories about Memphis Wrestling.

I for one would be thrilled if Jim Cornette actually stuck to his word and stopped watching and reviewing AEW.  Realistically speaking, I don't think the format of Cornette mostly ranting about modern wrestling every week had a lot of legs, anyhow.  It was already getting extremely tiring and repetitive. I know it was great for business to have Jim Cornette say something outrageous every week, the Pro Wrestling "news" sites pick up on it and use it as a story, social media responds, and the next week Cornette reacts to the reaction...but I don't think that was sustainable.  I don't know that it would happen, but I'd much prefer if Cornette's podcasts reverted back to their pre-AEW format.

[El-P]

From what you say, it's almost to the point of Last exploiting Corny for monetary issue. Because Brian "whoever the fuck he is" Last would not draw jack shit by himself. Life is too short to spend your time hate-watching stuff and get angry because of it. Corny could be happy talking about stuff he still loves, but nooooo.

At this point, Corny is basically like this guy stalking his ex on social media and hatin' on it, while kinda wishing she would get back with him. And his crowd of sycophants are basically incels.

[PeteF3]

I'm sure Brian would try to point to the Superpodcast as evidence that he's a draw, but I can't help but think that if that was bringing in beaucoup bucks, we'd be getting episodes more than once every 5 months.

[Laz]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

At this point, Corny is basically like this guy stalking his ex on social media and hatin' on it, while kinda wishing she would get back with him. And his crowd of sycophants are basically incels.

On point. Especially the incel dig.

[Loss]

Cornette responded to Jericho making a similar point that I did, arguing that people believed he was getting his face shoved in a cake because he was an asshole, while this was just an attempt to mock pro wrestling. Talk about moving the goalposts. Cake in the face is not part of a serious, sports-like presentation. It sounds like one of his big complaints is that there's not the same degree of love and hate coming from fans, or at least that it's not expressed in the same way. I'm nostalgic for that aspect of wrestling too, where Ricky Morton gets mobbed on his way to the ring by horny teenage girls or people throw garbage at the heels and they have to fight their way to the dressing room. He diagnoses a lot of the reasons wrestling isn't like that anymore correctly, but he also refuses to acknowledge that time doesn't stand still, and that just as many people were turned off by the deceit of wrestling -- that no one would admit it for what it was -- as watched it. Incompetence in wrestling is a big part of it, but so are changing cultural, political and economic factors. Wrestling in 2020 is far from perfect and I have lots of criticisms of it myself but I also didn't see Stadium Stampede as making fun of pro wrestling. It was a king-sized tribute.

[sek69]

8 minutes ago, Loss said:

He diagnoses a lot of the reasons wrestling isn't like that anymore correctly, but he also refuses to acknowledge that time doesn't stand still, and that just as many people were turned off by the deceit of wrestling -- that no one would admit it for what it was -- as watched it.

 

Makes me wonder how much of his dislike of current wrestling/wrestling fans come from them not worshiping at the altar of kayfabe  like his generation did.  How dare people enjoy the show in a different way than he did. 

[MoS]

As far as Stadium Stampede, it's also important imo to keep in mind that we are in a pandemic, where incredible heat is not just impossible, it might also not be what fans are looking for. The entertainment business in general often does not get severely impacted during big crises, but we do have evidence with WM 19 that when people are having real-world problems, they might not be interested in traditional pro wrestling. Cornette said the match was worse than a Russo angle. Come on. For statters, you think Russo would have booked that match without booking 15 minutes of cheerleader spots, including at least one getting put through a table? 

[Loss]

Cornette clearly never saw the actual match where Russo won the WCW title or the battle royal with the Randy Savage cameo. 

[MoS]

Also, I get disliking Stadium Stampede because it's bad comedy, but how is it making a mockery of wrestling? At least in a Russo-like way? There were no obviously choreographed spots; nothing where the participants basically stopped and acknowledged it was a work. Matt Hardy magically changing clothes was not realistic, yes, but it's not as if Memphis/90s WWF did not have supernatural characters.

[Laz]

Didn't Ortiz stop trying to drown Hardy because Matt Facts appeared on the screen's border? I know goofy stuff like that is why I've hated anything Matt Hardy's been involved in for years. 

[MoS]

I think in kayfabe they were just stunned he suddenly popped up with a completely different personality. It was definitely goofy but I don't see Cornette's argument to be on point about this. He also apparently said a lot of shit about the women's title match, but I don't know any specifics. 

[El-P]

And how would anyone dare to make fun of guys in their underwears ans shiny costumes pretending to have an actual fight in a ring doing totally illogical movements ? Like, you can make fun of everything, horror movies, folk music, contemporary art, russian litterature, pop culture as a whole really, but not pro-fucking-wrestling, this is serious business.