The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[MoS]

1 hour ago, Dav'oh said:

I'm more used to "Twinkletoes" being used on someone like John Tenta or Kamala. Or even Titus O'Neil. It's always been used sarcastically.
The irony is that Kenny really is twinkle-toed. It's a compliment. Corny is a gutless shit for hiding behind euphemisms and innuendo.

This is the first time I have seen Omega compared to Earthquake. Brother Dav'oh, as a big Tenta fan and as someone who doesn't care about Omega, I am offended

[Big Pete]

2 hours ago, joeg said:

I'm not one that judges others or gets easily offended which is why I think I defend Corny so much here.  But to me you can't rant about how your personal predilections are your business and nobody else's so don't judge and then turn around and mock somebody else for their own personal preferences. 

One could argue that those predilections were only made public during the speaking out movement when he and his wife were publically shamed. However, it's still inappropriate for Jim to jump to those conclusions with Omega. Even Brian pushed back on it during the last episode of Experience, even though he also thought Itoh came across really poorly during her segment.

Jim walks a fine line with Omega and he usually ends up crossing it. I think he has a point about Omega being too theatrical in the ring and on the microphone, it's tough to buy into him as a genuine performer. However it's usually followed by some homophobic comment which is completely unnecessary.

[Dav'oh]

5 hours ago, MoS said:

as a big Tenta fan and as someone who doesn't care about Omega, I am offended

 apologies. Probably not the time to compare doctored PWI interviews to doctored Indian cricket pitches of the 80s and 90s, then....

[El-P]

7 hours ago, Big Pete said:

I think he has a point about Omega being too theatrical in the ring and on the microphone, it's tough to buy into him as a genuine performer.

Except it's really not, as demonstrated by his actual track record. Whether one enjoy his work or not, he's been a star in Japan for years, has main-evented the biggest events and buildings for NJPW, was one-half of the most important match or the last 20 years, is currently a star in AEW and at the center of the hottest angle going on today, not to mention the fact he's considered by many as one of the greatest wrestlers ever (again, whether one enjoy him or not, the facts are there in term of delivering the kind of match that an audience, both in Japan and in the US, considers great, and that for years and years now).

Plus, in all honesty, and taking in consideration all notions of subjectivities involved, let's think back about Ricky Steamboat and his totally overexagerated body gestures and facials every time he would register a shot (not to mention his infamous "karate" offense) or Flair and Hennig pinballing around and taking goofy-ass bumps; this was all theatrical as fuck, and way more than anything Kenny does (Kenny looks and works much more "dangerous" than any of these guys, even taking account of the context and eras). Now, people are gonna talk about goofy facials but again, Randy Savage and his bulging eyes and coked out maneurisms say hello. I don't see how any of this is different (FTR, I love all of these guys who are all all-time favorites of mine)

Cornette's "valid" criticisms of Omega are baseless, both in term of aesthetics and actual working ability.

[NintendoLogic]

I've never seen "twinkletoes" used in any way but to describe someone who really likes or is really good at dancing. Cornette using it to describe Omega is in the same vein as comments like Kenny Olivier and jazz hands-he's trying to criticize Omega for treating wrestling too much like a theater performance. Trying to spin that as homophobic seems like a real reach. It reminds me of when people tried to claim that "sweaty" was a racial code word when talking about Mark Henry. Again, though, there are no good guys here. Cornette's comments about women's wrestling in general and joshi in particular are frequently infuriating, but the people wrestlers like Itoh cater to belong on a government watch list.

[MoS]

19 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

 apologies. Probably not the time to compare doctored PWI interviews to doctored Indian cricket pitches of the 80s and 90s, then....

Got some nerve talking shit to me about doctored Indian pitches a couple of days after England thrashed us and kicked our ass six ways to Sunday. I bet @ButchReedMark hasn't been sober since then

[Ricky Jackson]

When I see "twinkletoes" I only think about it being Fred Flintstone's bowling nickname

 

[sek69]

5 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

I've never seen "twinkletoes" used in any way but to describe someone who really likes or is really good at dancing. Cornette using it to describe Omega is in the same vein as comments like Kenny Olivier and jazz hands-he's trying to criticize Omega for treating wrestling too much like a theater performance. Trying to spin that as homophobic seems like a real reach. It reminds me of when people tried to claim that "sweaty" was a racial code word when talking about Mark Henry. Again, though, there are no good guys here. Cornette's comments about women's wrestling in general and joshi in particular are frequently infuriating, but the people wrestlers like Itoh cater to belong on a government watch list.

He's clearly using it as a euphemism for being effeminate in a gay stereotype way though. Like it's possible if it was just this time as a one-off I could see the argument, but he's constantly making digs at Kenny that imply that he really just wants to call Kenny the f-slur but even he knows that's a bridge too for. 

[Johnny Sorrow]

14 minutes ago, Ricky Jackson said:

When I see "twinkletoes" I only think about it being Fred Flintstone's bowling nickname

 

Ha, me too. But "twinkletoes" also feels like something Mr. Roper would call Jack on Three's Company right after saying he was " light in the loafers." And then he'd break the fourth wall.

[sek69]

It's also a kind of dated term too, which is kind of on brand for Cornette.

[Badlittlekitten]

32 minutes ago, sek69 said:

He's clearly using it as a euphemism for being effeminate in a gay stereotype way though. Like it's possible if it was just this time as a one-off I could see the argument, but he's constantly making digs at Kenny that imply that he really just wants to call Kenny the f-slur but even he knows that's a bridge too for. 

Exactly. He's the same guy that was railing on Kenny for moving around "like he's got a butt plug in him".

[funkdoc]

Maki Itoh is exactly the sort of person who *gets* modern wrestling fandom infinitely more than Cornette or even a lot of this board.  i've followed her Twitter for a while and it's a good time, as the snippets here can attest to.

Basically, to fully appreciate her, you have to understand the toxic elements of the Japanese idol industry that called her ugly and threw her away; her entire existence now is both a figurative and literal "FUCK YOU" to that whole business.  And as i've attempted to explain on here before, younger wrestling fans also tend to be anime fans who are familiar with this context.

[ButchReedMark]

6 hours ago, Ricky Jackson said:

When I see "twinkletoes" I only think about it being Fred Flintstone's bowling nickname

 

He's "light on his feet", "good with colours", "sensitive". 

 

Old man speak for using feminine stereotypes to call someone gay.  You hear it a lot in pubs my way.

[Laz]

13 hours ago, El-P said:

was one-half of the most important match or the last 20 years

He was involved in Austin/Rock?

[Big Pete]

15 hours ago, El-P said:

Except it's really not, as demonstrated by his actual track record. Whether one enjoy his work or not, he's been a star in Japan for years, has main-evented the biggest events and buildings for NJPW, was one-half of the most important match or the last 20 years, is currently a star in AEW and at the center of the hottest angle going on today, not to mention the fact he's considered by many as one of the greatest wrestlers ever (again, whether one enjoy him or not, the facts are there in term of delivering the kind of match that an audience, both in Japan and in the US, considers great, and that for years and years now).

Plus, in all honesty, and taking in consideration all notions of subjectivities involved, let's think back about Ricky Steamboat and his totally overexagerated body gestures and facials every time he would register a shot (not to mention his infamous "karate" offense) or Flair and Hennig pinballing around and taking goofy-ass bumps; this was all theatrical as fuck, and way more than anything Kenny does (Kenny looks and works much more "dangerous" than any of these guys, even taking account of the context and eras). Now, people are gonna talk about goofy facials but again, Randy Savage and his bulging eyes and coked out maneurisms say hello. I don't see how any of this is different (FTR, I love all of these guys who are all all-time favorites of mine) 

Cornette's "valid" criticisms of Omega are baseless, both in term of aesthetics and actual working ability.

I take your point, but I also take Cornette's. Yes, there is a level of showmanship in Pro Wrestling, The People's Elbow is the most ridiculous move in Pro Wrestling, but The Rock could convey passion whereas Omega has this aloofness to him that prevents him from displaying that. It's like he's worried that one of his non-Pro Wrestling friends is going to find him having a genuine moment so he does anything in his power to cut the tension with some goofy spot.

Some people can look past that and some can even appreciate it. However, it's there and if it's not your cup of tea then you're going to struggle with Omega.

13 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

I've never seen "twinkletoes" used in any way but to describe someone who really likes or is really good at dancing. Cornette using it to describe Omega is in the same vein as comments like Kenny Olivier and jazz hands-he's trying to criticize Omega for treating wrestling too much like a theater performance. Trying to spin that as homophobic seems like a real reach. It reminds me of when people tried to claim that "sweaty" was a racial code word when talking about Mark Henry. Again, though, there are no good guys here. Cornette's comments about women's wrestling in general and joshi in particular are frequently infuriating, but the people wrestlers like Itoh cater to belong on a government watch list. 

On its own it isn't bad but when Jim starts throwing in words like effeminate and sissy which he tends to do when he gets going you can see what picture he's trying to paint.

[El-P]

6 hours ago, Big Pete said:

I take your point, but I also take Cornette's. Yes, there is a level of showmanship in Pro Wrestling, The People's Elbow is the most ridiculous move in Pro Wrestling, but The Rock could convey passion whereas Omega has this aloofness to him that prevents him from displaying that. It's like he's worried that one of his non-Pro Wrestling friends is going to find him having a genuine moment so he does anything in his power to cut the tension with some goofy spot.

Sorry, but to say that Omega doesn't convey passion is so wrong. The entire storyline arc with Ibushi or within the Bullet Club with the Cody feuds conveyed more real emotion than whatever the Rock ever was involved in. He had people crying in Japan when he won the title from Okada. 

8 hours ago, Laz said:

He was involved in Austin/Rock?

Funny thing, no Austin vs Rock match was really that important anyway. And the biggest one they had actually marked the end of the WWF peak because f the worst idea ever (turning Austin heel and shaking Vince's hand)

Anyway, you know which one I'm referring to. Without Omega vs Jericho in NJ, there's probably no AEW (Tony Khan has stated many times that the fact this drew so much US viewers to subscribe to NJ World is what showed him there was an audience who wanted something else and ready to pay for it), which has totally redefined the landscape of the business.

[Big Pete]

Quote

Sorry, but to say that Omega doesn't convey passion is so wrong. The entire storyline arc with Ibushi or within the Bullet Club with the Cody feuds conveyed more real emotion than whatever the Rock ever was involved in. He had people crying in Japan when he won the title from Okada. 

Do you mean the storyline where he dressed up as a bear to surprise attack Cody? Or the ho-yay tag team with Ibushi where their finisher is the Golden Shower and their background is working together in a comedy federation?

The only time I can recall him not undermining his performance was in the build up to Okada/Omega IV and that's because he didn't have time to cut one of his promos where it sounds like he's at karaoke and he starts bizarrely singing parts of his promo out.

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Big Pete said:

Do you mean the storyline where he dressed up as a bear to surprise attack Cody? Or the ho-yay tag team with Ibushi where their finisher is the Golden Shower and their background is working together in a comedy federation?

Yes. I do. Because the fact DDT has its roots on comedic wrestling or the fact their finisher had a sexualized name doesn't mean it was not a genuine relationship/frienship story that came off very real, more real than most thing in pro-wrestling. Probably because it was.

Now, I'll say this, the very first times I saw Omega, I hated him. I'm sure I would find old posts of mine from a few years ago and I would slap myself around the face for saying those things then, because the switch had not happened in my head and I was stuck into that viewpoint of "oh, it doesn't look like the pro-wrestling I know so it's sucks". Same things for the Bucks BTW. At some point I basically gave in and realized I was wrong (basically when I began to watch more and more and understand what was going on today). 

[Big Pete]

54 minutes ago, El-P said:

Yes. I do. Because the fact DDT has its roots on comedic wrestling or the fact their finisher had a sexualized name doesn't mean it was not a genuine relationship/frienship story that came off very real, more real than most thing in pro-wrestling. Probably because it was.

Now, I'll say this, the very first times I saw Omega, I hated him. I'm sure I would find old posts of mine from a few years ago and I would slap myself around the face for saying those things then, because the switch had not happened in my head and I was stuck into that viewpoint of "oh, it doesn't look like the pro-wrestling I know so it's sucks". Same things for the Bucks BTW. At some point I basically gave in and realized I was wrong (basically when I began to watch more and more and understand what was going on today). 

Their friendship or whatever you want to call it came off real but the storyline surrounding the Bullet Club and The Elite was constantly undermined by bad acting and silly scenarios.

I'm glad you were able to come around and find a way to enjoy Omega. Kenny has plenty of positive qualities to focus on as well, but there's also a disingenuousness that shines through that creates an unnecessary barrier to his work.

[Dav'oh]

20 hours ago, El-P said:

doesn't mean it was not a genuine relationship/frienship story that came off very real, more real than most thing in pro-wrestling. Probably because it was.

Yep. And because it was Kota and Kenny telling their own story, in their own way, not them telling Gedo's or a creative team's story about the Golden Lovers.

22 hours ago, Big Pete said:

Or the ho-yay tag team with Ibushi where...their background is working together in a comedy federation?

I'm not sure what you're going for there. Would their love be more valid if it originated in the WWE locker-room?

[Big Pete]

29 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

Yep. And because it was Kota and Kenny telling their own story, in their own way, not them telling Gedo's or a creative team's story about the Golden Lovers.

I'm not sure what you're going for there. Would their love be more valid if it originated in the WWE locker-room?

I'm not saying anything about their personal relationship which is none of my business, but as a promotional tactic, they treated their tag team as a joke and were losing matches because they were too busy making out, obviously playing it as a laugh. In the context of the Bullet Club obviously there were some moments where they played it straight, but in typical fashion they had to throw some goofy details in there.

[joeg]

My opinion on Omega after watching him for the past decade is this. If he is being properly booked and is working a great worker he comes off as one of the best in the business. However if he isn't working with a top guy or there isn't somebody around like Gedo or Don Callis to paint him in the best light, it can be difficult to watch and cringe inducing. He's not like a Daniel Bryan or Mick Foley who have the wrestling mind and skills to turn even dumbest shit into gold. So I'd put him more in the same bag as like a Kevin Owens who came across like a rebel and a badass when Cornette was booking ROH and looked like a million bucks against Reigns and Cena but can be a chore to watch much of the time. 

[Mad Dog]

I think where Cornette comes across as super dishonest with Omega is he never gives him credit for anything. We all have workers that we detest that we will readily admit were in something good or were good in something. 

[Loss]

I don't think Cornette in particular has ever been good at giving people he doesn't like credit for much. He's a reactionary engaged in a constant cuss fight. You say whatever gets the person you don't like the angriest and you give them credit for nothing.

[Mad Dog]

2 minutes ago, Loss said:

I don't think Cornette in particular has ever been good at giving people he doesn't like credit for much. He's a reactionary engaged in a constant cuss fight. You say whatever gets the person you don't like the angriest and you give them credit for nothing.

Oh, I agree. It just hurts his credibility as a critic to me and makes his rant wear out really quick. You often watch something good and wonder "gee, I wonder how Cornette is going to twist himself in a way to say that sucked." and then you move on because it's just tiring.