The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[Mad Dog]

It had something to do with him jerking off with a banana or something. I know I read that story but that stupid sleaze thread has created a shit load of urban legends.

[flyonthewall2983]

Now he's suing someone over a shirt. 

I think a better title for the thread would be "The Cancellation of Jim Cornette". Unless he starts drinking Sprite by the gallon and moves into his nearest Dairy Queen I don't think this is a very apt description of what we're seeing.

[WingedEagle]

Why does anyone talk about Jim Cornette in 2019/20?

[Tenese Sarwieh]

At this point if you're still listening to Cornette and complaining about his opinions then that's on you. All you have to do is unfollow him on twitter and not watch his youtube clips. 

[SomethingSavage]

I still really enjoy some of his match reviews, to be honest. His breakdown and analysis of some of the modern stuff sounds exactly like stuff I'd say, even if I disagree on his overall evaluation of some of the talent involved.

Calling out Kenny Omega's stupid pew pew finger guns as "stagey and showy jazz hands" was just pitch perfect. It's the type of things fan boys may defend, but honestly. It looks so dumb to anyone outside the bubble, and it's part of the reason he looks like a big dork a lot of the time. Maybe he could pull it off if he conveyed any kind of danger or intimidation, but nah. He just looks like a guy pretending to be Goku at an anime convention or something.

[El-P]

10 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

Calling out Kenny Omega's stupid pew pew finger guns as "stagey and showy jazz hands" was just pitch perfect. It's the type of things fan boys may defend, but honestly. It looks so dumb to anyone outside the bubble, and it's part of the reason he looks like a big dork a lot of the time. Maybe he could pull it off if he conveyed any kind of danger or intimidation, but nah. He just looks like a guy pretending to be Goku at an anime convention or something.

And yet he sold out EDIT TO CONTENT SOME NITPICKING AS SEEN A FEW POST BELOW : packed several huge buildings in Japan and was a vital part of NJPW's growth when he was on top working against Okada (wow, that is so different to the point I'm making in the grand scheme of things), so I guess that did not keep him from getting over huge.

Plus, I don't think any pro-wrestling fan should ever make fun of the anime or manga or cosplay or video game stuff. Those cultures are much more widely accepted and socially considered than pro-wrestling ever was or will be. Pro-wrestling is the geekiest of the geekiest shit ever. In the real world, The Undertaker aka the Greatest Gimmick Ever is sub C-movie corny bullshit. Pro-wrestling acting is usually barely above classic porn flick level. 

So yeah, Omega does kinda goofy wide eyed facials, like Randy Savage and shit, and he does a pew pew with his fingers. The guy was a big star in Japan because of all of that (the video game connection, the maneurisms). And the fact he's like one of the greatest worker ever, but that's another story entirely.

Cornette in 2020 ? Yeah, no. That ship has sailed a long time ago.

[gordi]

Come on, man. No well-respected wrestling legend would ever do something as dorky as making finger guns! That is just NOT pro wrestling.

 

[The Thread Killer]

When it comes to Kenny, it's not just the bug eyed facials, and it's not just the odd hand gestures.  It's the constant pointing out to the crowd, and the excited little dances he does on the spot, before he runs the ropes.  It's when he flings his arms wide and flails them around. Kenny Omega's mannerisms in the ring are just...odd.  And a little off-putting, in my opinion.  I find his quirky affectations to be distracting during the match. @SomethingSavage pretty much hit the nail on the head...I often find myself asking why the hell he is doing that, and exactly what he's trying to convey?  Is he constipated?  Does he need to use the bathroom? I'll say this much about Kenny Omega, if his goal is to be unique and come across as different from pretty much everybody else when it comes to his style in the ring, then by all means...mission accomplished.

Cornette and Brian Last call him "Jazz Hands" because they like to joke that when he works he looks more like a modern interpretive dancer than a Professional Wrestler.  And in my opinion, they're not wrong.  The nickname is apt.  The funny thing is that (unlike Cornette) Brian Last actually likes Kenny Omega.  He's just pointing out the rather obvious quirks Omega has when it comes to his presentation.  It's not even so much the scathing insult that some people like to make it out to be, as it is pointing out the obvious.
 

[The Thread Killer]

On 12/26/2019 at 9:28 PM, WingedEagle said:

Why does anyone talk about Jim Cornette in 2019/20?

 

On 12/27/2019 at 11:22 AM, Tenese Sarwieh said:

At this point if you're still listening to Cornette and complaining about his opinions then that's on you. All you have to do is unfollow him on twitter and not watch his youtube clips. 

The whole "Jim Cornette is irrelevant in 2019" argument needs to stop, honestly.  That's like tuning into your local Classic Rock/Oldies station and then acting surprised that they're not playing Post Malone.  Cornette has made it abundantly clear (pretty much constantly) that he doesn't want to be "relevant" to "modern" Pro Wrestling, because he hates it.  He's relevant to his own fan base, and whether some people like it or not, he has a huge fan base.  Some of them are older fans like myself who like listening to his stories about Pro Wrestling history and the territories.  Some of them dislike modern Pro Wrestling as much as he does and agree with his opinions on that.  Some of them are just moronic drooling sycophants who will agree blindly with anything he says and harass and troll the people he doesn't like. It's a very large demographic, whether some fans want to admit that or not. You can disagree with him, you can even hate him but if you cannot possibly deny his popularity or the fact that his views echo those of a large number of Pro Wrestling fans. I agree with @Tenese Sarwieh, the people who are irate that he's still out there and still ranting and raving about modern Pro Wrestling should probably just ignore him...because he's not going away anytime soon.

[The Thread Killer]

On 12/26/2019 at 2:10 PM, flyonthewall2983 said:

Now he's suing someone over a shirt.

The whole lawsuit over the shirt story is kind of interesting.  One of his snitch-tagging fans sent Cornette a gif on Twitter of some Death Match guy getting badly injured, and Cornette made fun of it and made some sort of inflammatory comment about how they should have let the guy bleed to death.  The guy didn't take that well, (his name is "G-Raver" or something) and responded back by registering a domain "FuckJimCornette.com" and then he started selling a T-shirt featuring Jim Cornette's severed head with the same inscription: "Fuck Jim Cornette."  Cornette didn't care about the sentiment behind the shirt (he was actually pretty funny, acting shocked that anybody could possibly express those sentiments about him since he is cuddly as a basket of puppies) but he did care that this guy was making money from selling something that had Cornette's name and likeness on it.  Like a lot of those old school guys, Cornette has his name and likeness legally trademarked, and he has always been very militant about people using both to make money without giving him his cut.

Cornette's lawyer sent the guy behind the shirt and the companies selling the shirt a "Cease and Desist" letter.  One of the companies actually stopped selling the shirt and sent their stock to Cornette, who turned around and started selling the T-Shirt on his own Cornette's Collectibles site and giving the proceeds to charity. Problem was "G-Raver" got pissed off about that and went back to selling the shirt again, so Cornette sued him.

The whole reason this is interesting to me is because it's possible that the Death Match guy can turn around and claim that the shirt is "parody" and is therefore covered by Fair Use, much like the bWo in ECW was.  However, the guy isn't really doing a parody he is blatantly using Cornette's actual name and likeness and trying to make money from it.  Not to mention, even if "G-Raver" does manage to win this lawsuit I am assuming he'll be buried in legal fees so even if he wins, he's losing in the big picture. I assume unknown Death Match wrestlers don't have limitless funds with which to pay their legal teams during protracted legal disputes, whereas Cornette's #1 sponsor for his podcasts is an ambulance chaser named Stephen P. New, who is representing Cornette.

Some people are painting this as Jim Cornette being thin-skinned and unable to take a joke, claiming he's more than happy to insult people but when they do it back to him, he sues.  I'm not totally sure that is the case.  It's more the fact that Cornette zealously protects his trademark and if you're going to use his name and picture to make money, then you'd better be writing him a check for it.  This kind of stuff was the reason Cornette fell out with the MLW Network over his podcasts and the "Jim Cornette's Talking Sense" channel on YouTube.  These old school carny types don't fuck around when it comes to getting their money.

[El-P]

34 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

The whole "Jim Cornette is irrelevant in 2019" argument needs to stop, honestly.  That's like tuning into your local Classic Rock/Oldies station and then acting surprised that they're not playing Post Malone.  Cornette has made it abundantly clear (pretty much constantly) that he doesn't want to be "relevant" to "modern" Pro Wrestling, because he hates it.

Yet he spends most of his active time talking about it and making money off of it, simply by monetizing his Youtube channel and podcast doing reviews of something he despises and preaching to his choir of fanboys. Corny is the epitome of hate watch, but he's still an old-school con-man, so he manages to make a buck out of it. He's basically leeching off something that has long passed him by. If Corny was honest, he would only talk about old-school stuff and the territories. But of course, that would not garner nearly as much buzz and traffic and clicks. Corny's a worker. He works his own marks (and yeah, I'm using this word because that's how people like him views the audience), as showed by the Callihan debacle. He has become his own version of Vince Russo, sadly. After decades of being a fan and defending him, 2019 is the year I lost tons of respect for this guy. 2020, he's totally off my radar. No time anymore for this kind of nonsense. 

[NintendoLogic]

For most of his career, Omega's act has combined jaw-dropping athleticism with cringe-inducing comedy. The quintessential indy geek, in other words. When he first got a push as a Bullet Club member, he was The Cleaner, a hokey undercard gimmick that wouldn't have looked out of place in the New Generation-era WWF. It took the booking of Gedo, who was heavily influenced by American territory wrestling, to channel his talents and make him a credible Tokyo Dome headliner. Now that he has creative control, he's doing everything he can to turn himself back into a geek.

As for Cornette, say what you want about the guy, but when he's right, he's right.

That clip looked like a game of tag between fifth graders. And that was from GCW, supposedly one of the top indies in the country.

[Laz]

It looks like any other undercard "workrate" match between young talent to me. They need to snug it up, sure, but to act like this is an embarrassment when PRINCE KHARIS was a thing that Corny did is fucking asinine. 

[Coffey]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

That clip looked like a game of tag between fifth graders. And that was from GCW, supposedly one of the top indies in the country.

This is the first I'm seeing of Cornette seeing the clip & saying something about it, although I had heard he also shit on it. But yeah, I went off about this myself as well & drew a lot of ire from random no-nothing Twitter marks. 

For what it's worth, that dude & his stable also suck shit in MLW. One of the worst acts they have going right now.

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

As for Cornette, say what you want about the guy, but when he's right, he's right. That clip looked like a game of tag between fifth graders. And that was from GCW, supposedly one of the top indies in the country.

 

9 minutes ago, Coffey said:

This is the first I'm seeing of Cornette seeing the clip & saying something about it, although I had heard he also shit on it. But yeah, I went off about this myself as well & drew a lot of ire from random no-nothing Twitter marks.  For what it's worth, that dude & his stable also suck shit in MLW. One of the worst acts they have going right now.

I have no idea who those two are (and based on that clip, I have no wish to find out) but to me that clip basically looks like two 7th graders doing a really bad imitation of Lucha.  If that is what passes for good on the indies right now, then WWE really has drained all the usable talent into NXT and left nothing but the dregs.  Yikes.

[SomethingSavage]

5 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

When it comes to Kenny, it's not just the bug eyed facials, and it's not just the odd hand gestures.  It's the constant pointing out to the crowd, and the excited little dances he does on the spot, before he runs the ropes.  It's when he flings his arms wide and flails them around. Kenny Omega's mannerisms in the ring are just...odd.  And a little off-putting, in my opinion.  I find his quirky affectations to be distracting during the match. @SomethingSavage pretty much hit the nail on the head...I often find myself asking why the hell he is doing that, and exactly what he's trying to convey?  Is he constipated?  Does he need to use the bathroom? I'll say this much about Kenny Omega, if his goal is to be unique and come across as different from pretty much everybody else when it comes to his style in the ring, then by all means...mission accomplished.

Cornette and Brian Last call him "Jazz Hands" because they like to joke that when he works he looks more like a modern interpretive dancer than a Professional Wrestler.  And in my opinion, they're not wrong.  The nickname is apt.  The funny thing is that (unlike Cornette) Brian Last actually likes Kenny Omega.  He's just pointing out the rather obvious quirks Omega has when it comes to his presentation.  It's not even so much the scathing insult that some people like to make it out to be, as it is pointing out the obvious.
 

THIS. All of it.

Omega looks like a goof. I don't care if he can play fight for 90 minutes. Cool story. Nice cardio. Whatever. That doesn't make his shit interesting. I don't want to watch him for 9 minutes - let alone 90 - if he's going to pause and drag his foot across the floor like a preening ballerina every chance he gets.

I wasn't knocking anime or comic books. Of course they're bigger and more widely accepted than pro wrestling. I'm not too tuned into anime, but I know my fair share about comics. So don't misunderstand me there.

The bottom line is that I don't think Omega appeals to a broader audience than what they've already got. It's like Cornette says - they're singing the same songs to the people who already know all the words. And that's it. It won't grow or get any bigger or anymore support.

It's a very finite fan base, because a guy like Kenny Omega - with his interprative dance routine - does not stand a snowball's chance in Hell of resonating with Joe Blow down the block. Nobody new is going to see this guy and think they want to be like him. They're going to wonder what the fuck went wrong with wrestling since Stone Cold left, with Omega's pew pew hand motions and his quirky ticks.

A guy like Austin resonated with red-blooded males for obvious reasons, but let's not overlook the simple small things. A middle finger is a gesture HUMAN BEINGS ACTUALLY DO. Even the crotch chops of DX were things people would actually say or do in real life. That's why they resonated. That's why people dug it. It was wrestlers reacting like actual living, breathing human beings for a change.

Nobody knows what the fuck Omega's curtsies and rubbing and pew pewing is all about. It's just fucking weird, man. And when he's SUPPOSED to be in fight or flight situations? That makes it a hundred times worse. NOBODY ON EARTH behaves that way. Off-putting is, well, putting it mildly. It's not believable. It's not going to strike anyone as anything. It's just... Odd for the sake of being odd.

I've seen some people bring up things like the People's Eyebrow in comparison, but no. Just no. You need to have a certain charm and charisma to pull that off. And Rocky epitomized cool. Omega looks like the weird artsy kid who got really buff after high school because he thought it would make people stop laughing at him. He's Carrot Top.

I chuckled at the Cactus Jack comparison, for real. But it's night and day. Omega carries none of the threat or danger that a Cactus Jack could and did. Randy Savage eyes? Come on. You'll tear a rotator cuff reaching that hard. Omega conveys the Macho Man as much as any ten year old kid could by just opening his eyes real wide. There's no genuine sense of madness there. He's just a guy trying way too hard to act eccentric and flamboyant. That's all.

And, while I know people get up in arms about being all-inclusive and shit these days, I just don't believe many people are going to view that as anything special. He always looks like he's gliding and preening. He's much more a Tonya Harding and much less a Brian Pillman.

Scratch that. Tonya conveyed more of that madness I was talking about.

Regarding Cornette being a con man - come the fuck on, man. You might as well condemn anyone and everyone in the business if that's the case. The business is filled with people who will take advantage of opportunities to earn the most they can from it. And bless 'em for it. That's the point.

This whole mindset of trying to change the world through wrestling that Omega goes on about is such silly horse shit. He's in it to make money, too. I'm not sure if you're aware of that. But they're not out there play fighting for free.

Cornette isn't "making bucks" off a business that he hates. He's making bank off a fan base that enjoys listening to what he has to say. Being mad at him for that is sour grapes.

[Coffey]

23 minutes ago, SomethingSavage said:

Omega looks like the weird artsy kid who got really buff after high school because he thought it would make people stop laughing at him. He's Carrot Top.

Good God, man!

That was the line of the week! 

[sek69]

I dunno, even when Cornette makes a good point all I can think of is the "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole" scene from Big Lebowski.

[El-P]

I think some people here don't like Kenny Omega too much. 

I'm sure he's ok with it. Being a draw for NJPW, ROH (the Elite and NJPW sold that MSG show, and ROH died pretty much when they left) and now AEW (which is doing much better than they should, really, all thing considered). Being offered a ridiculous contract by WWE. If that does not constitute success in pro-wrestling, what does ? Critical appreciation ? Hum.... I'm pretty sure he's doing fine on that level too. Yeah, he'll survive a few shitty memes and hateful tweets... 

[joeg]

9 hours ago, El-P said:

And yet he sold out the Tokyo Dome, so I guess that did not keep him from getting over huge.

 

26,000, 35,000, and 38,000  are not sell outs in a 65,000 seat building. And continuing to claim otherwise discredits any point you make.  

[SomethingSavage]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

I dunno, even when Cornette makes a good point all I can think of is the "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole" scene from Big Lebowski.

I'm a pretty big fan of Cornette, but I would not even argue against that at all.

1 hour ago, El-P said:

I think some people here don't like Kenny Omega too much. 

I'm sure he's ok with it. Being a draw for NJPW, ROH (the Elite and NJPW sold that MSG show, and ROH died pretty much when they left) and now AEW (which is doing much better than they should, really, all thing considered). Being offered a ridiculous contract by WWE. If that does not constitute success in pro-wrestling, what does ? Critical appreciation ? Hum.... I'm pretty sure he's doing fine on that level too. Yeah, he'll survive a few shitty memes and hateful tweets... 

I don't even know about the memes or tweets, since I'd rather chew shards of broken glass than go near wrestling Twitter.

I don't necessarily dislike Omega. I just think he's vastly overrated. I followed much of his work in New Japan and enjoyed him quite a bit following the turn on Styles. Everything before that was bad comedy, and I feel like his lack of actual character hurts him in the US. That's just my two cents.

I mean, what is he even supposed to be? Japanese tourist guy? Even his Tron video thing is just him backpacking around like Dora the Explorer. Tf, man? Be something. Say something. It's all just nonsense. It's like he is completely uninterested in the stories or the character beats in between - he just wants to get back to the part where he can play Black Swan or whatever the fuck in the ring again.

"Best Bout Machine" is also a terrible fucking nickname. It's just the dirt worst, for a number of problematic reasons.

I don't criticize his actual wrestling too much, because I get that I'm not his target demo. I don't buy CrossFit cardio flexing as any type of admirable feat in pro wrestling though. I find it obnoxious whenever Flair touts his elliptical or StairMaster sessions as some sort of accomplishment also, so it's not like I'm biased against Omega or this current crop of wrestlers. It applies across the board.

If I want to criticize Omega's actual wrestling, I'll start with his reliance on excess. He throws V Trigger knees like they're right hands. And, while some of them look truly sick, that sort of defeats the purpose of trying to make it a kill-shot. It also gives off the impression that he's not as well-rounded as he'd like you to believe.

But hey. That cardio, am I right?

He also pauses to priss and preen and peacock way too much. It totally takes away from the urgency of a contest.

But hey. He could probably flip a monster truck tire like nobody's business. Good for him.

As far as him drawing monumental houses, ehh. I don't know. There are all these claims of how over he is and shit, but I don't buy it. Nobody knows this guy. He exists only to a very small, very specific group of people. He's not widely known. He's not all that over. And he never will be with the way he is currently presented.

Steve Austin was over. Goldberg was over. Hogan. Rock. Even Punk and Bryan for a short flash. All these guys had a buzz and excitement around them. They got people talking and stirring. But nobody anywhere wants to be Kenny Omega with his pew pew finger bangs and his Ramen noodle mop top. Truth hurts.

Being offered a fat contract from WWE is another hollow claim these days. Seth fucking Rollins is earning top pay there. He is so not over he's under. Nobody buys a Seth shirt. Nobody knows he exists outside a wrestling event. Nobody thinks about Seth Rollins or Kenny Omega. These are non-entities in the pop culture lexicon.

[The Thread Killer]

2 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

Nobody knows what the fuck Omega's curtsies and rubbing and pew pewing is all about. It's just fucking weird, man. And when he's SUPPOSED to be in fight or flight situations? That makes it a hundred times worse. NOBODY ON EARTH behaves that way. Off-putting is, well, putting it mildly. It's not believable. It's not going to strike anyone as anything. It's just... Odd for the sake of being odd.

I agree, and that's probably my biggest issue with Omega's strange affectations, right there.  We all know Pro Wrestling is fake, but we also know that as fans we're supposed to buy into the fact that the basic concept is two guys wanting to beat each other in a wrestling match, and when the emotions are high it boils down to two guys wanting to beat each other up. That requires the guy on offense to realistically pretend to be aggressive and the guy on the receiving end to realistically sell that aggression. I've seen Omega sell pain, but in general his reactions don't seem normal when considering the situation. To me it always looks like somebody is trying to kick his ass, and his response is to do a little dance, shake his head and point at something.  That's hard to buy into, from a Pro Wrestling psychology standpoint.  He usually takes me out of the match with his reactions.

And that's not even getting into his promos.  I've only ever seen Omega promos in ROH and AEW and I can't ever remember seeing him act at all realistically aggressive during a promo.  I've never seen him sell actual emotional investment in the match. He always sounds like he's in a fairly pleasant mood, or at worst he's mildly annoyed due to some minor inconvenience.  Remember his promo on Dynamite at the end of November?  He had just been through a hideous death match with Jon Moxley, and was heading into another important match with Pac so his natural response was to...cut a comedy promo.

If the biggest defense people can come up with is "look how over he is" then that doesn't say much for him.  I've said it a million times here at PWO, since when is popularity an indicator of how good something actually is?  I always use my tried and true example of Nickelback. They can sell out arenas all day long, that doesn't make them good.  Or let's use a Pro Wrestling example, WWE Raw has more viewers than AEW Dynamite, does that mean Raw is a better show?  Of course not.   Kenny Omega is very athletic and he's capable of being part of very good Pro Wrestling matches, but I have yet to see any convincing evidence that he is one of the best in the world right now, never mind of all time.  That is one hell of a stretch.  When it comes to Kenny I am more inclined to agree with Jim Cornette than I am the average AEW fan, but as I said previously...I am a 50 year old guy who has been a Pro Wrestling fan for 37 years. I am hardly AEW's target demographic.

 

[Boss Rock]

I think my biggest issue with Cornette (obviously apart from his offensive comments) is the hypocrisy when it comes to folks he doesn't like. I get not liking folks like Janela for what they bring to the table as a wrestler (I have no strong opinions on Janela either way, he's had matches I've liked and matches I don't like) but to criticize folks for not working out or looking out of shape when the guy managed Eaton, Condrey, and Del Ray is just silly. 

[goodhelmet]

All three guys you mentioned were in shape. They weren't roided out but they were in shape. They also didn't look out of place next to the other stars of the day. I think that's a more valid criticism of Joey Janela. It isn't that he doesn't deserve a spot in the wrestling ring. It is that he shouldn't be going toe to toe with guys like Moxley and Omega. He should be in the Randy Mulkey position. 

[Boss Rock]

I honestly don't think any of them looked much better than Janela when it comes to physique. And I don't really think he comes off as a jobber either. He's fine in that midcard position to lose to Mox and Omega but go over someone like Spears.