Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[Mad Dog]

51 minutes ago, Loss said:

Because he doesn't trust that they can run it?

This. If he feels they can't run it successfully then selling and stipulating jobs for them in the sale or cashing out so they are set for life are options he would consider I think.

[C.S.]

Trips is lauded by the general internet for the way he runs NXT. What would make Vince doubt him?

Hot take: NXT has been a slog for years now. 

[Mad Dog]

It hasn't been drawing and AEW has totally owned them in the ratings. I think there are a lot of reasons Vince would lose faith in him.

[Loss]

33 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Trips is lauded by the general internet for the way he runs NXT. What would make Vince doubt him?

Vince quietly demoted HHH recently.

[Alucard]

On 4/29/2020 at 3:55 PM, Mad Dog said:

Yeah, I really liked Dolph at one point but he seemed to give up after they did zero with him after that Survivor Series match. I think he realizes he was getting pushed and paid the same regardless of what he did after that.

I felt 2 years later in 2016 was his peak. Really strong work leading up to vs. Ambrose at SummerSlam followed by the excellent Miz feud over the IC title. Sadly was all downhill from there.

[SirEdger]

Been quite interesting to be honest to see the evolution of Vince's mind in the past few weeks. Now, word is that he's pissed at Roman for pulling out of Mania. Hell, Roman is not even in the Make-a-Wish ads anymore and he was front and center before that.

[C.S.]

4 hours ago, Loss said:

Vince quietly demoted HHH recently.

Thinking out loud and probably making no sense at 2 in the morning, but I wonder when it became obvious at some point that Shane wasn't going to be the heir apparent, if Vince never really came to terms with that and never truly had his heart set on Trips (or even Stephanie) being in that role.

[FMKK]

7 hours ago, C.S. said:

Trips is lauded by the general internet for the way he runs NXT. What would make Vince doubt him?

Hot take: NXT has been a slog for years now. 

I think it's been a slog for ages too. It peaked with Zayn winning the title and then Bayley vs Sasha. But HHH in a way had the easiest job in wrestling. He only had to book an hour a week, hadn't much pressure to make money and had a seemingly unlimited budget to sign talent and cycle them in as fresh acts when others got called up. Plus he got to market himself as the in-house alternative of the shows that nobody likes. When he was finally counted on to draw on Wednesday nights, he failed. The competition with AEW has exposed a lot of NXTs flaws (lack of call ups and exciting new faces, horrendous main event scene, Shawn Michaels agenting) and they've lost their 'alternative' cache because now they're an instrument of WWE attacking a new promotion. HHH worked so hard to rebuild his credibility with hardcore fans and now it kinda looks like he's back to square one again.

[sek69]

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

Thinking out loud and probably making no sense at 2 in the morning, but I wonder when it became obvious at some point that Shane wasn't going to be the heir apparent, if Vince never really came to terms with that and never truly had his heart set on Trips (or even Stephanie) being in that role.

It would make sense in Vince's super alpha male brain that since he took over from his dad, that Shane would be the one to take it over from him. In fact, I'd have to look at the timelines to make sure but it certainly seems like Vince's obsession with brass rings and those who grab them really ramped up after Shane left the company in 2009. I don't pretend to have any special access to Vince's brain (and I'd probably be scared to look inside if I did), but I wouldn't be surprised if all the last second plan changes and randomly throwing folks overboard all while claiming to enjoy being challenged by someone bold is all just overcompensation for not being manly enough in his own eyes to be able to sire a proper heir to the kingdom.  I couldn't think of anything being a bigger failure in Vinceworld than not having your son take over the company. 

[C.S.]

17 minutes ago, FMKK said:

I think it's been a slog for ages too. It peaked with Zayn winning the title and then Bayley vs Sasha. 

That would probably be my timeline too. The Joe, Balor, Nakamura, and Roode reigns were all dogshit. Drew and Andrade were slight improvements but that's not saying much. I loved the Gargano-Ciampa matches at first, but they ran that feud into the ground. Their most recent "epic" match was 45 minutes of boredom, unnaturally dark lighting, and weird camera angles. Adam Cole does nothing for me, bay bay. Dream might have been a fun champ, but I can't see that happening now - for obvious reasons. IMO, just run with Keith Lee. Even in the cheesy Netflix movie "The Main Event," he had charisma and starpower written all over him.

6 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if all the last second plan changes and randomly throwing folks overboard all while claiming to enjoy being challenged by someone bold is all just overcompensation for not being manly enough in his own eyes to be able to sire a proper heir to the kingdom.  I couldn't think of anything being a bigger failure in Vinceworld than not having your son take over the company. 

I've never thought of it from this angle. What exactly, at any point, has ever prevented Shane from still being the heir apparent? Sure, he left, but then he came back, so what's the problem? Does he still not want it? I realize he has supposedly had some goofy creative ideas, but he also had good ideas like turning ECW into a legit third brand (basically, what they ended up doing with NXT years later) and investing in MMA (certainly a better idea than the XFL). 

[sek69]

It always seemed that Shane was more like his mother and Steph is more like her dad. Shane doesn't seem to have enough "ruthless aggression" for lack of a better term, and Vince probably sees that as weakness. He ended up getting frustrated like a lot of the wrestlers do at his ideas constantly getting shot down,  plus getting politically outmaneuvered by his own sister probably stung a little too, so he saw the writing on the wall and left.  In the end I think a lot of it came down to Steph just being way more savvy and Vince-like, and Shane just not being alpha enough for daddy to care. 

[FMKK]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

It would make sense in Vince's super alpha male brain that since he took over from his dad, that Shane would be the one to take it over from him. In fact, I'd have to look at the timelines to make sure but it certainly seems like Vince's obsession with brass rings and those who grab them really ramped up after Shane left the company in 2009. I don't pretend to have any special access to Vince's brain (and I'd probably be scared to look inside if I did), but I wouldn't be surprised if all the last second plan changes and randomly throwing folks overboard all while claiming to enjoy being challenged by someone bold is all just overcompensation for not being manly enough in his own eyes to be able to sire a proper heir to the kingdom.  I couldn't think of anything being a bigger failure in Vinceworld than not having your son take over the company. 

Vince as Henry VIII is a fascinating comparison. Maybe all of his top babyfaces over the years can be the six wives.

[MoS]

This is not really related, but Shane McMahon has been a worse on-screen presence than Stephanie for decades now and I will never understand why Steph gets so much more hatred than Shane. 

Btw, isn't it funny how 5 months back, Darby Allin and Sammy Guevera were just talented newcomers while Keith Lee was red-hot and super over, with tons of momentum coming off Survivor Series. Now, Allin feels like a star and Sammy is a far bigger deal despite doing quite a few jobs, while Keith Lee is basically in the same position he was before, all his momentum completely squandered, just another guy cutting typical WWE promos and having typical WWE matches. Oh but he has a belt now. 

[El-P]

Because she seemingly jumpstarted the "writers" era when she worked in creative. Because of the 9/11 promo. Because "charity is the new PR". Because she made herself mother hen of all thing female pro-wrestling, scratch that, female pro-sports. Because she's been castrating every babyface on screen for 15 years. Yeah, she was at one time a good performer as a valet (like, in 2001 or so) and had some really fun (overrated because of the context and pendulum effect) performances at Mania alongside the King of King of Kings, but she has been mostly a detriment to the product as a whole forever now. 

Shane O gets a pass because he's seen as the "cool" McMahon despite the fact he's always had ego-driven performances (going toe-to-toe on the mat with Kurt Angle anyone ?) and that he's a terrible, TERRIBLE worker whose stuff looks like complete shit (never understood why he got a pass on that, really, even from the MOVEZ-hating crowd, I mean come on now at some point when everything you do looks godawful you gotta call a spade a spade).

[Strummer]

Yeah I think most of the hate for Stephanie was because she was attached to creative for so long when it started to fail. I see many people still think till this day she's on creative.

plus yeah taking credit for the rise on the women's division in recent years as well

and I know a lot of people liked her in the authority stuff but it lasted way too long and in reality she was just cutting the same promo each week. That stuff has not aged well imo. Even with .Bryan you could argue he was actually more over before feuding with hhh and steph.

Shane's last run was absolutely horrible as well

[MoS]

I tried to separate on-screen presence in my original comment, but her kayfabe actions and backstage role are probably too tied up for this. 

As far as castrating faces (and heels) goes, yes, true, but Shane since basically the beginning would always go toe to toe with the top stars and, depending on whether he was a face or heel, often get the better of them. I remember Rock selling for him to a ridiculous extent, in 2000, when Rock was bigger than wrestling. Sure, Rock was always really selfless for a top guy, but he was not the only one. The only one who treated him like a proper jobber was Steve Austin. 

[flyonthewall2983]

2 hours ago, sek69 said:

It would make sense in Vince's super alpha male brain that since he took over from his dad, that Shane would be the one to take it over from him. In fact, I'd have to look at the timelines to make sure but it certainly seems like Vince's obsession with brass rings and those who grab them really ramped up after Shane left the company in 2009. I don't pretend to have any special access to Vince's brain (and I'd probably be scared to look inside if I did), but I wouldn't be surprised if all the last second plan changes and randomly throwing folks overboard all while claiming to enjoy being challenged by someone bold is all just overcompensation for not being manly enough in his own eyes to be able to sire a proper heir to the kingdom.  I couldn't think of anything being a bigger failure in Vinceworld than not having your son take over the company. 

This is probably the heart of the matter when it comes to WWE and where it is right now. While he was taking over the world, and credibly destroying regional competition and making his company so huge while still being privately owned, he was teaching his son along the way. Any doubt I ever had about the potential of Shane being given the key to the kingdom one day was quelled when I watched Arnold Skaaland's Hall of Fame speech from 1994. Mere weeks before the high potential of facing federal prison time, a few points of that speech were squarely centered around Shane being the unquestioned heir to what was even then on shaky ground. His daughter learned while there was only WCW left to vanquish (which ended up being a suicide anyway). Shane saw his father deal more with the outside world, while Stephanie learned from a man increasingly living inside his own bubble. 

If the Network and PPVs are potentially going to be in other hands, that could be the first loose strand to be picked at before the possibility of being sold off is a more tangible possibility. 

[Stiva]

3 hours ago, C.S. said:

That would probably be my timeline too. The Joe, Balor, Nakamura, and Roode reigns were all dogshit. Drew and Andrade were slight improvements but that's not saying much. I loved the Gargano-Ciampa matches at first, but they ran that feud into the ground. Their most recent "epic" match was 45 minutes of boredom, unnaturally dark lighting, and weird camera angles. Adam Cole does nothing for me, bay bay. Dream might have been a fun champ, but I can't see that happening now - for obvious reasons. IMO, just run with Keith Lee. Even in the cheesy Netflix movie "The Main Event," he had charisma and starpower written all over him.

My dream future of NXT is Keith Lee as the unconquerable babyface with Stokely Hathaway bringing in guy after guy to go after him. In a world without COVID-19, Keith Lee, WALTER, Riddle, Dunne and Fantasma would be an awesome main event crop on the men's side while they can finally send The Undisputed ERA to bore me on Smackdown instead.

[Loss]

I don't know that I'd put all of NXT's problems on HHH, although he certainly has contributed. I think they messed up when they stopped thinking of NXT as "developmental". The best thing about NXT was that talent moved in and out quickly, so no one ever got stale. Now people stay there for years. That was conceived with the idea of actually supporting HHH when they decided to start making NXT competitive with ROH and on the European scene by giving him a more reliable group of talent, but it has just burned a lot of them out before they've really even done anything.

[El-P]

6 minutes ago, Loss said:

I don't know that I'd put all of NXT's problems on HHH, although he certainly has contributed. I think they messed up when they stopped thinking of NXT as "developmental". The best thing about NXT was that talent moved in and out quickly, so no one ever got stale.

And that was part of the illusion of HHH being this great booker. He never had to care about long term. And from the point they had to work long term, well, the magic trick was exposed.

[Loss]

I also think part of it is that he is skilled at putting on an aesthetically pleasing show, but we haven't seen him prove yet that he can really sell a match in a way that makes people think, "I've gotta see this!" At least on a huge level.

[El-P]

Because NXT worked in a bubble. For all the talk about AEW "not trying to expand their core audience", NXT was always the pseudo-indy WWE show, filmed at the same place with the same crowd. Full Sail is the modern version of the IMPACT zone. He never had to make people think "I've gotta see this" because he was preaching to a choir in a bubble. Going head to head with AEW they probably thought that the WWE brand was enough to kill the other guys even with their secondary brand. And it failed miserably. On paper, AEW should have been squashed like a TNA bug...

[War is Raw]

NXT has always been an illusion, with contradictions. If we zoom out, it was always a reality bender (even leaving out the original reality-show game show prototype). I will stick to the present tense, although the past tense may be appropriate. 

-Many fans hate Vince and the bad programming on RAW/Smackdown, so embrace a short weekly show with excellent Takeovers, i.e. "real wrestling". In doing so, they forget they are still supporting The Evil Empire.

-Fans think it a draw based on Takeover attendance, but NXT just piggybacks the main PPVs. It is unable to draw on its own. Indie promotions can outdraw it.

-Old school fans love the "NWA"-feel, yet gloss over the lack of realism with selling and the offensive psychology of everyone aping Shawn Michaels' "every match must steal the show" mentality. 

-NXT is a subsided brand. Having the "zeitgeist" has never translated into ratings, tickets sold, merch, or anything financial. It was never fair to give HHH credit for NXT's "success".

-For the long time loyalists, things have changed as NXT has morphed into a league full of in-prime indie workers instead of a true development "league". Because of the Wednesday Night War, critics don't have much patience to see green workers learn on the job. 

In fairness, HHH's vision has always been different than Vince's, and Vince is the boss. That said, I do not trust HHH's creatively, business-wise (why should we?), or ethically. I wish people would stop repeating the meme of "When Vince dies, HHH will make WWE good again."

It's over for WWE creative on all of its brands. Been that way for some time. It's OK. We have many more options and archives. We don't get paid to fix their mistakes.

[FMKK]

2 hours ago, MoS said:

This is not really related, but Shane McMahon has been a worse on-screen presence than Stephanie for decades now and I will never understand why Steph gets so much more hatred than Shane. 

Btw, isn't it funny how 5 months back, Darby Allin and Sammy Guevera were just talented newcomers while Keith Lee was red-hot and super over, with tons of momentum coming off Survivor Series. Now, Allin feels like a star and Sammy is a far bigger deal despite doing quite a few jobs, while Keith Lee is basically in the same position he was before, all his momentum completely squandered, just another guy cutting typical WWE promos and having typical WWE matches. Oh but he has a belt now. 

I don't think Shane ever had a run as bad as the Authority stuff from 2013-2016 where HHH and Stephanie would bury babyfaces and heels alike on the microphone every week and never get comeuppance. That was demoralising to watch as a fan, whereas Shane can at least be dumb fun if you don't think about it too deeply.

[El-P]

17 minutes ago, War is Raw said:

I wish people would stop repeating the meme of "When Vince dies, HHH will make WWE good again."

I do think that ship has sailed some time ago already.

Speaking of Roman, how much money one really need ? The guy is pretty much already set for life. If I was him, I'd say fuck this bullshit and call Harold Meij. 4 matches, big paydays. 

WK 21 : vs Suzuki. Roman wins.

Dominion 21 : vs Okada. Roman loses.

MSG 21: vs Tanahashi. Roman wins.

WK 22 : vs Mox. Whoever wins.

and then...

Double of Nothing 22 : Roman Invasion, return match against Mox.

And I am by no mean a Roman fan (but interested in what he would look like outside the machine). But there you go. Book it.