2026 Ideas

[concrete1992]

WooOooo! Let's get to it people

[NotJayTabb]

I've got my mailing list email, I've got a 5hr block to listen to the podcast when working from home on Monday, I've got a bunch of footage to dig into and a renewed urge to watch some great wrestling. Let's do this!

[Noah's_Savior]

One of my goals is to be the high vote for Mariko Akagi, unfortunately by the time AJW got the Fuji TV deal she's in the back half of her career and about to start her heel run with White Pair but she's a top 3 or 4 wrestler for 70s AJW imo. She gets referred as the "Queen of the Ring" in the Beauty Pair movie and things I've read have made it seem very clear that the company was very high on her but I don't want to walk into conversation with my only reference being a couple matches I found on youtube, magazines, fan accounts, and a kayfabe movie where she beats up a bunch of ruffians and recruits Jackie to join AJW. This is the pain of 1970s AJW.

[Kadaveri]

2 hours ago, Noah's_Savior said:

One of my goals is to be the high vote for Mariko Akagi, unfortunately by the time AJW got the Fuji TV deal she's in the back half of her career and about to start her heel run with White Pair but she's a top 3 or 4 wrestler for 70s AJW imo. She gets referred as the "Queen of the Ring" in the Beauty Pair movie and things I've read have made it seem very clear that the company was very high on her but I don't want to walk into conversation with my only reference being a couple matches I found on youtube, magazines, fan accounts, and a kayfabe movie where she beats up a bunch of ruffians and recruits Jackie to join AJW. This is the pain of 1970s AJW.

How much footage of Mariko's matches do you think even exists? These are the only matches I've ever found:

Mariko Akagi & Yumi Ikeshita vs. Nancy Kumi & Victoria Fujimi 1978
Mariko Akagi vs. Chino Sato 1979

[elliott]

We should have a thread where we can identify people who may have been helped by newly unearthed footage. Phil just mentioned Buzz Sawyer. I didn't know about that JYD match but now I'm gonna go find it. 

[Matt D]

Posting this again :

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2019/09/new-footage-friday-master-list.html?m=1

[elliott]

OOOOOH! I missed this the first time around! Thank you! 

[Grimmas]

12 minutes ago, elliott said:

We should have a thread where we can identify people who may have been helped by newly unearthed footage. Phil just mentioned Buzz Sawyer. I didn't know about that JYD match but now I'm gonna go find it. 

Make any thread you desire in this GWE section to discuss GWE!

[Matt D]

I’d love to see @El Boricua try to organize and categorize the 90s and 00s PR footage that’s out there but that’s probably a massive project. 

[El Dragon]

8 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I’d love to see @El Boricua try to organize and categorize the 90s and 00s PR footage that’s out there but that’s probably a massive project. 

If there’s a listing of this style in order for World of Sport I’d be very interested as well, though that’s probably just as big of an undertaking

[El-P]

You people are crazy. In a good way, but crazy nonetheless.

[El Boricua]

7 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I’d love to see @El Boricua try to organize and categorize the 90s and 00s PR footage that’s out there but that’s probably a massive project. 

Yeah, that's a massive undertaking, you'd have to be nuts to try to do that. So, I guess I'll be doing that.

Also, there is some 80 stuff that's turned up as well.

[alexoblivion]

I would assume the larger problem people have with JVK might be from his activity outside of PWO. 

[PeteF3]

On 4/5/2021 at 10:26 PM, Dav'oh said:

Just out of curiosity, as it won't effect my ratings: Only a small percentage of UK and European wrestlers made their way to America, did any of the French catch guys try their luck across the pond? Did many even cross the Channel? What was the average French 50s wrestler's "loop"?

 

On 4/5/2021 at 11:01 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Aside from the obvious ones like Andre and Carpentier, the big bodybuilder types had runs in the USA -- Drapp, Duranton, Mortier and Voiney. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting. From what I understand, most French workers worked in France, Spain, Germany, England and a few other countries like Belgium and Switzerland. I'm not sure how many of them made it to Japan. UK heavyweights worked countries like South Africa, Iraq, India, Pakistan, etc., but the French guys mostly struck to Europe. They regularly worked in the UK at least through the 60s to early 70s. One of the most famous UK matches we have on tape is actually Jacky Corn wrestling under his real name against Billy Howes. 

Because I happened to have it available, here's a list of all the French Catch footage guys who went to Japan...unfortunately, very little of it is on tape, just a few matches from an old Jose Arroyo in '81. Oh, and we're skipping Andre and Carpentier as "givens."

- Jose Arroyo (3/69 IWE World League, 10/72 IWE Big Winter Series, 1/81 IWE New Year Pioneer Series)

- Fred Magnier (3/71 IWE World League, wrestling as Magna Clement or Magna Clemente or Magnier Clemente)

- Rene Lasartesse (7/1970 IWE Big Summer Series)

- Conde Daidone (10/73 IWE Big Winter Series, wrestling as Daidone Mussolini)

- Horst Hoffmann--tons of appearances in IWE and AJPW. Had an AWA run teaming with Von Raschke in the early '70s.

- Spartacus (9/69 IWE Royal Series)

- Andre Bollet (1/69 IWE Big Winter Series). Also had a run in Texas in 1959.

- Gaby Calderon (5/74 NJPW Golden Fight Series)

- Mammoth Siki (5/74 NJPW Golden Fight Series)

- Robert Duranton (2/71 IWE Dynamic Big Series)

- Quasimodo (1/70 IWE New Year's Challenge Series). Had a run in Texas in 1960 as The Hunchback.

- Frank Valois (bunch of tours of IWE and New Japan. As you may know he was Andre the Giant's original handler and often wrestled the same places overseas that Andre went to.)

- Charles Verhulst, who appeared in the French footage as Allan le Foudre, toured numerous times for IWE, New Japan, and once for the first UWF, either as himself or as Johnny Londos.

- Gil Voiney (11/68 IWE World Series as himself, 1/72 IWE New Year Pioneer Series as L'Homme Masque, 5/75 NJPW Golden Fight Series as The Masked Gladiator). Wrestled in the U.S. in 1964 as Max Mortier.

And I think that does it for the Showa Era. Bernad Vignal was supposed to have an IWE tour in 1972 but cancelled shortly before.

Unfortunately most of these guys wrestled for IWE and while we have a bunch of IWE footage thanks to some box set releases, I dunno how likely it is that any more late '60s/early '70s footage is going to turn up. But if you want to watch an old Jose Arroyo mix it up with Bruiser Bob Sweetan or Isamu Teranishi, you can find it.

[Matt D]

Arroyo has been pretty good in the French footage! I want to go and see that.

1. I'm going to have to make a list of all the Catch we've watched because the blogspot design isn't the best. I'll do it in the next month. That'll be the best place to find the matches too.

2. Having been at this for a few hours, I've learned immediately that I have zero desire in 2021 to rewatch anything from 2012-2020 that I've already seen. Zero desire. The idea of watching stuff I liked at the time, like the Shield six-mans is just absolutely nil. That surprised me a bit. There's plenty of time and I just want to focus on what I've been focusing on, all of which is new to me, or at least new to me in context. It means it might be hard to get into certain discussions immediately though, but hey, we have time.

[PeteF3]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/PZPYQi8B6Bg

Roy Lucier has already taken care of Arroyo-Sweetan for us.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/AfgPw_IaEXI

Arroyo vs. Mach Hayato.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/a6EeDd_-zsY

Arroyo vs. Isamu Teranishi.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/rw7_wpXSTQc

Arroyo & "The Invader" (Roberto Soto, Invader II) vs. Mighty Inoue & Animal Hamaguchi.

[Jmare007]

@Grimmas @Loss

For the nominations threads. What will be the limit on links for matches? I guess youtube and dailymotion are fair game. But what kind of stuff is better to not post in this board and just use other outlets to get the material out there?

 

[Grimmas]

10 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

@Grimmas @Loss

For the nominations threads. What will be the limit on links for matches? I guess youtube and dailymotion are fair game. But what kind of stuff is better to not post in this board and just use other outlets to get the material out there?

 

No links on the board (just write out the three matches)... there is a fancy google doc you can throw anything in (hint: check the Links thread).

[Gregor]

13 hours ago, Matt D said:

I've said this before, but a lot of the problem is that Tenay (and WCW in general) did way more than harm than good in promoting an actual understanding of (traditional 2/3 falls) lucha. We could unpack the why of that (90s sheets writers/readers emphasizing unhelpful things, short distilled TV matches that had completely different goals, etc)., but I doubt it's really necessary.

It was just a gateway, same as seeing Liger in WCW was. Maybe it leads to people checking out what those guys did in their home promotions, and maybe it doesn't. Maybe the people who want to see what Juvi was like in Mexico stick around and try to learn everything they can about it, or maybe it's so different that it turns them off. I know that I first tried to get into lucha via Rey and Juvi, and my reaction was basically, "Never mind. I think I'll just watch them have great matches in a context that I can understand." It's hard to blame Tenay for not explaining classic trios psychology or how Mexican promotions treated championships when none of that applied to the cruisers in WCW.

Mexico really is a bit of an island in how it does pro wrestling. Even beyond the in-ring aspects, I can understand someone learning that there's no world champion who's basically the king of the mountain, and wondering what the whole point is. I guess classic British wrestling is even more different, but at least that has Walton explaining it all in English. With lucha, I remember someone here posting an old Steve Sims tidbit that tecnicos aren't allowed to use closed fists but rudos are. It's not true (it would be akin to watching U.S. tags and concluding that heels are allowed to make tags behind the ref's back, but faces aren't), but it's an example of how easily the style can seem hopelessly foreign to someone who isn't yet into it.

[Jmare007]

51 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

No links on the board (just write out the three matches)... there is a fancy google doc you can throw anything in (hint: check the Links thread).

Awesome.

[TheDuke]

In the Shimoda nomination thread, El-P mentioned how Mita invented the Death Valley Driver and that shouldn't be forgotten. I was wondering how important the invention of new moves are to the GWE discussion, especially if the new moves are adopted by a lot of later wrestlers. I dont actually know a lot about the history of moves and wonder is this is an important subject to consider .

[Grimmas]

8 minutes ago, TheDuke said:

In the Shimoda nomination thread, El-P mentioned how Mita invented the Death Valley Driver and that shouldn't be forgotten. I was wondering how important the invention of new moves are to the GWE discussion, especially if the new moves are adopted by a lot of later wrestlers. I dont actually know a lot about the history of moves and wonder is this is an important subject to consider .

If it's important, it's going to be an awesome list full of joshi workers!

[Matt D]

I'm personally much more interested in people who come up with interesting transitions or integrate narrative bits that you didn't see much before them or that use old moves in new ways than that come up with new moves. Even when it comes to new moves, it's much more about how those moves are utilized and the effect they get out of them as opposed to moves for the sake of moves. I can imagine plenty of scenarios where "innovation" is ultimately detrimental and influence can be negative. So it's going to be on a case by case basis.

 

[El-P]

27 minutes ago, TheDuke said:

I dont actually know a lot about the history of moves and wonder is this is an important subject to consider .

To me, yes, influence in how the form of pro-wrestling has evolved is definitely important. And even way more importantly than new moves (although obviously it is very important because otherwise we'd have matches with a vertical suplex as a finisher still), *the way* pro-wrestlers are moving inside the ring and how they use this space and the space outside absolutely matters to me. With that line of thought, someone like Naomichi Marufuji, who's been a great pro-wrestler for like 20 years now, is somewhat of a pro-wrestling genius in that he has changed the way pro-wrestler uses their space, with his use of ropes and turnbuckles in unusual ways (I'm not sure if he came up with the misdirection spot too, but it was all in this spirit, KENTA actually was also instrumental in this). Without the form evolving, pro-wrestling has nothing interesting to tell in and out of itself as I said before (pro-wrestling match stories.... yawn....). Fuck, I'd make an argument for Sabu, really (yes, I know table spots existed before, but there's a clear before/after Sabu in terms of how prevalent and how they were laid out and used then abused and overused, 25 years later still).

As far as new moves that are so awesome that no one even dares to do it since then, the moonsault footstomp of Hikari Fukuoka needs to come back in style at some point. Someone will see it, want to do it and someone is gonna be willing to take it...

[Matt D]

@El Dragon Send me some Lacey matches, pal.