Four (Singles) Matches In - Punk vs Danielson

[MoS]

Danielson hasn't been unleashed in terms of a wider moveset, unless by that you just mean hitting hard. Yes, there is more to wrestling than moves and action, which is precisely why Bryan looks far more comfortable and at home, while Punk feels tentative and unsure of himself. It's about how you move, your intensity, how you carry yourself, how snug and convincing your offence looks, how well you bump and sell, etc. Danielson has been better than Punk at all those things.

There seems to be a false binary between "smart work" and "performative work that plays to what the crowd wants." The idea that Danielson hasn't wrestled smart matches or that his matches are just fan service are a disservice to the stories he has been trying to tell with his matches in the ring. There's more to smart storytelling than pointing your fingers at your head. Bryan's match with Omega was nothing like his match with Suzuki, which was nothing like his match with Nick Jackson. All matches had different stories. You are pointing to good logical work in Punk's matches, but there was similar logical work in Danielson's matches too. You are making it sound as if he is out here wrestling Davey Richards-Eddie Edwards matches.

If you want to defend his WWE run and the matches these, sure, do so, (I love so many of those matches too, and a couple of them I have above Danielson-Omega) but just saying "Punk isn't being appreciated more than Danielson because these fans appreciate the wrong things in matches and don't get why Punk is being so great" can only take you so far. There have been plenty of articles written about the storytelling in Danielson's matches, how it feels different from Daniel Bryan matches, how his selling and storytelling have been top-notch. There was an excellent review of the Suzuki match by Jimmy Redman in the Rampage thread, for example. You might disagree, but you are acting as if these Danielson matches have been praised for action and workrate alone, which is just not true. 

[NintendoLogic]

Punk/Garcia vs. Danielson/Fish is the closest thing we have to an apples-to-apples comparison. They're matches of similar length centered around leg work from a lower-ranked opponent. I don't think it can be denied that Punk's performance was clearly superior in terms of selling and storytelling. Danielson literally did not sell the leg at all when he went back on offense. I suspect audience expectation was a big part of that, though. The fans by and large don't want to see Bryan project vulnerability, they want to see him kick people's heads in. Also, fans have been conditioned to view limb work as a time sink with no real significance. When it does factor into the story of the match, it seems to go over their heads. I've even seen people claim that the Garcia match had no story, which is mind-boggling to me. Recall that Bryan/AJ at the 2019 Rumble, which was built around dual limb work and featured pretty impeccable selling from both men, went over like a lead balloon. Maybe that made Bryan decide that trying to get modern fans to appreciate limb selling was a fool's errand.

[Jmare007]

Danielson's selling of the arm after the buckle bomb from Omega is tied for best selling for me with Cesaro's incredible stuff with Roman. I mean, a lot of people thought Dragon had shoot injured his wrist, it was even a talking point on WOR and Dave said he even asked and told he was fine. Shit, he was selling getting head trauma after the V-Trigger from the ramp . I can see a case for complaint about the Fish match but come on, going from that to acting like it's an overarching thing is wild.

 

[Boss Rock]

Bryan's have definitely been better and I don't think it's particularly close. But Punk has still been a lot of fun to watch. Some of that is obviously the novelty of not having seen this guy wrestle in over 7 years, but they've still been a lot of fun to watch. 

[Flyin' Brian]

For me, it’s the difference between a guy that has been wrestling regularly and at the top of his game for the past 3 years since his forced retirement, and a guy who hadn’t wrestled for 7 years since his retirement. I’ve enjoyed both guys and they have both met my expectations, but the expectations for me were different for each. A better comparison might be Danielson’s first matches back from retirement vs Punk’s first matches back from retirement. 

[Jmare007]

36 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

For me, it’s the difference between a guy that has been wrestling regularly and at the top of his game for the past 3 years since his forced retirement, and a guy who hadn’t wrestled for 7 years since his retirement. I’ve enjoyed both guys and they have both met my expectations, but the expectations for me were different for each. A better comparison might be Danielson’s first matches back from retirement vs Punk’s first matches back from retirement. 

Yup. In that sense, Punk's shown more interesting stuff than Bryan back then. He was fine having to wrestle around Big Cass and had decent matches against a really bad worker, but it wasn't until the Miz feud that we could see DB getting his groove back.

[sek69]

6 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Maybe that made Bryan decide that trying to get modern fans to appreciate limb selling was a fool's errand.

I'm not saying Bryan doesn't care about getting fans to appreciate things, but it seems like he's way more the type who just sees cool shit in other matches and is like "I gotta try that next". Dude just loves wrestling in all forms and styles and while he hopes you do too, if you don't that isn't going to stop him from doing what he wants to do. 

[rovert]

On a dork note. Danielson is working on a taping of Dark in Universal Studios this weekend. Obviously, the Suzuki match happened last week. But still, it is wild he never did an NXT (or NXT UK) cameo/one-off. 

Who he works and how he approaches the match will be so interesting. HE MAIN EVENTED WRESTLEMANIA THIS YEAR too. 

 

[Matt D]

Yuta should get the match to make up for the Mox squash.

[rovert]

5 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Yuta should get the match to make up for the Mox squash.

Yuta is actually a very good shout. I'd save the first Garcia vs Danielson match to be something meaningful.

Danielson deciding to wrestle to his fellow Pacific Northwesterner Luther for shits and giggles would be entertaining and a change of pace if we are talking about embracing the WCW Worldwide vibe. 

[sek69]

17 minutes ago, rovert said:

Danielson deciding to wrestle to his fellow Pacific Northwesterner Luther for shits and giggles would be entertaining and a change of pace if we are talking about embracing the WCW Worldwide vibe. 

I could see him doing that for that exact reason. Bryan's whole decision making process beyond the obvious money matches seems to be "fuck it, why not?"

[Matt D]

30 minutes ago, rovert said:

Yuta is actually a very good shout. I'd save the first Garcia vs Danielson match to be something meaningful.

Danielson deciding to wrestle to his fellow Pacific Northwesterner Luther for shits and giggles would be entertaining and a change of pace if we are talking about embracing the WCW Worldwide vibe. 

Danielson vs Serpentico is one of the matchups I honestly want the most. It would be the best Saturday Morning Slam Danielson match.

[Big Pete]

Punk's AEW return has been better than Bryan's WWE return by virtue of them treating it like a big deal whereas Bryan's was an after thought. Bryan spent the majority of his return bout flat on his back as he had to sell a pre-match attack and his role was reduced to a 2 minute hot tag in a segment that lasted 20 minutes. Then they had him face AJ Styles in the post-Wrestlemania edition of SmackDown which should have been a big deal but the whole purpose was for Shinsuke Nakamura to ruin the match. Instead of seeking revenge after having a big opportunity spoiled Bryan was foisted onto Big Cass who in-storyline was upset that Bryan's return had over-shadowed his return from a knee reconstruction. Bryan would anchor that Greatest Royal Rumble match which hardly anyone remembers due to the infamous Titus slipping under the ring spot. The whole purpose is that Bryan would set a record going 76 minutes only for Big Cass to eliminate him late in the match before putting Braun over.

None of his matches felt significant but outside of the Cass feud there was that sense that Bryan was a kid in a candy store working stalwarts like Jeff Hardy and Shelton Benjamin. He had worked Shelton before during his 2010 sabbatical but clearly he felt he could do something more with him while he'd never worked Jeff before and that seemed like a bucket list item. Speaking of, he also worked his first and only match against Rusev around this time and I had completely forgotten that this was the first loss Bryan had on return. It was a good television match as you'd expect but again it speaks volumes that the result wasn't that significant. In the end Rusev qualified for Money in the Bank and that was that.

I don't think it was any fault of Bryan and having to anchor the longest Royal Rumble match in history is really impressive but the WWE just didn't capitilise on him.

In fairness AEW hasn't really knocked it out of the park with Punk either. The return bout against Darby was obviously better than the authority figures vs. the whiney Canadian outlaws Wrestlemania bout but there's that same sense that Punk is just having his fill working guys he wants to work but they don't mean anything in the grand scheme. It really should be a no contest but Punk's run has been pretty underwhelming up to this point.

[Jmare007]

16 hours ago, rovert said:

On a dork note. Danielson is working on a taping of Dark in Universal Studios this weekend. Obviously, the Suzuki match happened last week. But still, it is wild he never did an NXT (or NXT UK) cameo/one-off. 

Who he works and how he approaches the match will be so interesting. HE MAIN EVENTED WRESTLEMANIA THIS YEAR too. 

 

Between this and Bryan being more active on social media promoting himself and his company more than ever before shows how happy and commited he is. I remember he actively hated doing social media stuff for WWE (and mocked them for years with the TOUT stuff ).

[NotJayTabb]

I'd possibly be more excited for Danielson working a three week gauntlet of the Gunn Club, culminating in a Billy Gunn match, than anything else

[FMKK]

I've enjoyed both guys in different ways. Danielson obviously has the higher end stuff - who wouldn't if they're working Omega and Suzuki? - but I've really enjoyed how Punk has worked. People have mentioned Bret as a comparison, which I like, but I also think there's a bit of like WWECW Christian or something in there too. Just smart, well-worked television wrestling that doesn't go out of its way to be flashy. That's something AEW lacked for the first year or so but now has a decent roster of guys who can do that style. 

I really enjoyed Punk vs Darby, Garcia and Sydal (the Hobbs match was just ok) and I think the Bobby Fish match will be of similar competence. I think he's heading for an MJF feud and maybe comes to save Darby and Sting from a beatdown this week so hopefully we get a fun trios out of that and then a proper main event programme in the coming months. 

[Matt D]

I honestly, truly believe that I'd like a potential Punk vs Dustin match more than the Danielson vs Dustin match (which, of course, I did like).

[Childs]

Well, Punk had a better match with Fish than Danielson did. 

[MoS]

They have had a lot more matches now, are firmly in the middle of deep angles, and also have had quite a few common opponents. What do we think now?

[Jmare007]

Punk continues to be highly motivated, which means he's performing at the highest of levels. Dragon continues to be the best in the world at this wrestling stuff. They've had a lot of similar opponents at this stage and I'm not sure Punk has had a better match with anyone. Kingston being a legit tossup which kinda shows how awesome Eddie is (same with Dustin). Still, Punk vs Bryan is not an argument that's fun to have right now, both are great and I feel every discussion about them ends up with taking shots at one to take him down a peg...though that might just be me reading Twitter too much.

[KawadaSmile]

I dunno. I love Blackpool Combat Club, but it does feel like Bryan is spending more time beating the shit out of people lower on the totem pole - which isn't a bad thing, of course - than having a great feud with someone who can hang.

I rank Punk's stint above Bryan's so far, but it's 100% on how they are being booked at this point in time. 

[Flyin' Brian]

It will be interesting to see if Punk beats Hangman since Danielson didn’t. 

[Gramsci]

Both are probably two of my all-time favourites, so, as Domènech used to say, take everything I say with a grain of salt.

With that being said, I think Bryan is having a better run overall, even though CM Punk is having the most interesting segments. From September to January, Dragon has had at least 3 or 4 all-time classics in my book: The Omega one, the two Page matches, and the Eddie Kingston match at Rampage. Everything he did in the ring felt really special until January and if Page hadn't been as over as he still is, he would now be the world champion. Another good thing that I've seen since he is in AEW is that he feels liberated when he is in the ring and looks more like a superstar than when he was in the WWE.

At the same time, I think Punk has had the better feuds, especially with Eddie Kingston (although it was really short) and MJF. His matches against Darby Allin, Eddie, FTR and Dustin have been really good, but asides of the Kingston match, which is epic for me, the other ones are “just great” and can be compared with the second-tier list of Danielson matches against the likes of Dustin, Garcia, Yuta, Fish, Jackson…

My problem with Danielson right now is that he doesn't feel as special as those first few months, I like some of the ideas behind the BCC thing, but I don't want to see him in trios and tag matches, maybe that’s a set up for something bigger, I don't know. The role he's playing right now is something he could be doing in his third year on his contract, whereas now he should be booked as the Top 1 or 2 wrestler in the company. It's been almost two months since his last really good match.

[Makai Club #1]

Between the two, Punk has absolutely blown Bryan out of the water since they've showed up. In terms of promos, presentation and matches, I've preferred Punk every step of the way. Bryan had a great match with Omega and a few good matches with Hangman Page, who I don't like all that much, but the rest has been underwhelming to me. I see the match against Nick Jackson and, while it's fundamentally good, I wasn't engaged in the match whatsoever. Similar to the matches against Miro, Jon Moxley, and Lee Moriarty. I actually found the Moxley match to be very boring and lacking in much quality. The whole BCC story has, honestly, been a bit of a turn off for me. It all feels a little hollow and I can't get invested in what they are doing with the stable, Bryan included. 

 

Whereas with Punk, I have nothing but praise and excitement for him. He doesn't have the most amazing matches week to week but I get a lot of value out of them, even if it's against wrestlers who I don't care for. His promos can be a little cheerleaderish but he makes them work. The feud against MJF was phenomenal and even if the dog collar match didn't deliver like I expected it to, it still progressed both wrestlers forward in an effective manner. Plus their Dynamite match is one of the best AEW matches ever. 

[DMJ]

I'm willing to admit some recency bias but I've really loved Punk over the past few months more than Danielson, but as others have said, that has plenty to do with Danielson working more tags and Punk having two absolutely awesome opponents semi-recently in Dax Hardwood and Dustin Rhodes (and its not like the Penta match was anything less than good either).

Comparatively, we've been seeing the Danielson and Moxley (and now Wheeler) squaring off against *checks notes* the Gunn Club and the Varsity Blonds. So, maybe like when Punk was wrestling QT Marshall for no apparent reason, this is just a stretch where the idea is to put them on TV, establish Yuta (which has been successful) before the team hopefully moves on to an actual feud with some credible opponents. 

I've never been much of a fan of six-man/trios championships, but with AEW so faction-based and so many of these factions actually being over, it really isn't that crazy of an idea.