WWE Survivor Series - War Games - 11/24 - What Do You See?

[El-P]

5 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

Fucking LOL

The funniest is Punk saying "I'm a different person" at the press conference. Oh yeah, now you're so different and mature, as the world got to witness the past year. 

BTW, remember Jade Cargill ?

2023 has just been a completely batshit crazy-ass year for pro-wrestling.

[Stiva]

It’ll all end in tears but his promo on Raw is going to be worth a watch. AEW need to bring back Jack Perry to give his side of it

[El-P]

"On August 21, 2021, I left sports-entertainment.... November 27, 2023. I'M BACK !!!!"

(at least that would be legit funny)

[EnviousStupid]

Not high on any of the matches but hey, Randall and Punk are back and likely to be on the upcoming Raw. First time I might watch an episode in full since pre-pandemic.

[KawadaSmile]

4 hours ago, El-P said:

Also, gotta say. Kinda sucks for Randy Orton. I mean. "OMG ! Randy Orton is b... CM PUNK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 

I take it as a big win for him tbh. He is still over as fuck and the spotlight is NOT on him despite the 18 month absence. He can keep coasting it.

[DMJ]

The Seth thing is 100% a work. As is most of the BS about this all being some big company secret. As someone else said, when you have the production team ready to go and the marketing/merchandising team ready to go, that's just not something that happens minutes before the show starts. I think the top people knew, obviously, because you have to put pen-to-paper and that means the legal department and the finance department need to know too. And I think Triple H does have an "inner circle" of trusted top wrestlers that he gave a "head's up" to and that includes Seth Rollins and probably KO and Reigns and maybe Cody now and others. It'd be a professional courtesy that I believe Triple H understands. 

What I don't think is true is that this is some super-lucrative CM Punk payday or that the WWE were begging to bring him back and going to do whatever it took. Yes, he's going to get paid big money. He didn't sign to an NXT deal. But is he the highest-paid guy in the locker room? No way. This is a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" dick-waving contest between Triple H and Tony Khan. Bringing Punk back is going to help sell tickets and merch and pop a rating for sure (his appearance on RAW is absolutely must-see), but this is a company that was already doing very well in 2023 without him. They were the only real option for Punk unless he wanted to take a massive paycut to wrestle for a 3rd-tier company like TNA or try to maneuver an international deal (which I'd never heard was even considered). If Triple H/Endeavor/Vince didn't understand their leverage, that'd be crazy to me.

So, I'm guessing they offered Punk a good amount of money and, yes, they're going to keep this toy in its packaging for awhile. I'm about 70/30 on him competing at the Rumble (leaning towards him not wrestling on the show). I think, instead, they'll do some sort of phony "contract signing" at the Rumble and it'll get interrupted by Seth. Then, its Seth/Punk at Mania in Punk's first match back.

But I don't think Triple H or Endeavor came groveling and begging for him. I don't think they see CM Punk as some long-term cornerstone of the next 5 years of the company. And rightly so. Maybe that's where AEW went wrong too. TK was counting on Punk to be healthy and professional enough to be a core cast member on his TV shows, while WWE might recognize that this is a guy who is so much more reliable as a Special Guest Star in 2024. 

[Microstatistics]

A few rough thoughts on the return:

Yeah, the Rollins reaction was definitely a work. I doubt the WWE talent care, they are PR machines and can easily separate professional from personal.

I didn't really comment during the whole AEW debacle, where I thought there was blame on both sides (Punk's nature being incompatible with AEW's "The inmates run the asylum" approach). Of course the WWE stans on r/scjerk have done a complete 180 on Punk in anticipation of this return (after trashing him for two years before the termination) and lay the blame solely on TK for the fallout. I'm guessing Punk will be on a much tighter leash in WWE and will probably fare better under a more structured and regimented administration. 

The hypocrisy of the return is hard to ignore, especially after the wellness and Saudi Arabia comments, but the temptation to spite (plus the financial incentive) was probably too great. 

I thought he looked really good in-ring wise during his AEW run so am interested in seeing how he pushes on in a more controlled environment.

Finally, I sort of admire the "no permanent exiles or enmities" sentiment of WWE. If they can bring back Bret and hire Bischoff, this one is rather tame.

[KawadaSmile]

Shit, they brought back Ultimate Warrior and televised that man's death essentially. I don't think anyone is off limits.

[Jmare007]

6 hours ago, sek69 said:

You figure Hunter was able to mend fences with Bruno after everything that went down, so there's no limit what the man can do. 

That was the thing though, Hunter mended fences with the very few people Vince still had in his no-no list. Punk and him never liked each other and had an awful falling out. To bring him back in a time the company doesn't really need him shows a side of HHH I wasn't sure he had. Good for him (and WWE) really. 

[Benbeeach]

48 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

That was the thing though, Hunter mended fences with the very few people Vince still had in his no-no list. Punk and him never liked each other and had an awful falling out. To bring him back in a time the company doesn't really need him shows a side of HHH I wasn't sure he had. Good for him (and WWE) really. 

 HHH was always willing to play ball. That best for business line has to be his real life actual catchphrase. And not to make it all morbid but after his health scare, and seeing how all of this, in its entirety could go away just like that, there are probably no such things as grudges in that guys mind. Just opportunities 

[pmo]

Yeah and for Punk this is a “new” regime with the final call going to Emmanuel.  So he can probably square working with Hunter because of that.  
 

[Embrodak]

This doesn’t speak very well for Punk’s character or Lefty bona fides, but him being spiteful enough and still wanting to do Bret Hart tribute spots enough that he buried the hatchet with a company that gave him so many oral antibiotics for a staph infection he was required to work through that he shit his trunks in the ring certainly does add to how compelling I find him!

[NintendoLogic]

Apparently, the talent in the main event was clued in beforehand. Seth's reaction was a work but Drew's was legitimate. I don't know what's gong on there, but Punk/Drew would likely bang hard. So would Punk/Seth, honestly. More than anything, though, give me Punk/Gunther and I'll be a happy man. And I know everyone is expecting a blow-up at some point, but part of me thinks he really wants to get voted into the Observer HOF and he needs a run in the big leagues where he remains on his best behavior to get him over the hump. I don't why else he would go back to WWE when he doesn't need the money or the headaches.

[KawadaSmile]

I guess the company itself is in better shape right now than in 2011-2014, specially when you look at what was pissing him off. There's no Wrestlemania Main Event Miz (although that wasn't bad), there is no The Rock coming in to take the spotlight, there is no Batista winning the Rumble, there is no Kane and Big Show eliminating all the fan favorites.

The landscape is looking way less grim, to the point where being inserted into the IC title scene would be a fucking great program.

 

Now, him being extra petty and bringing in the real AEW World Title would own, but that will never happen.

[SirEdger]

It would be easy to assume that Drew's reaction had something to do with his contract situation; here he is, waiting for renegotiating that deal and WWE backs up the Brinks truck for Punk. But it could be a combo of things. Hell, there's a video that surfaced online that clearly shows the cameraman signaling for Drew to leave before Punk entered.

[flyonthewall2983]

I heard Drew was injured

MVP of the night for me was Miz

Bayley reminds me a bit of Muraco

I really hoped Charlotte turned heel but it was a nice match

hats off to the poor souls who have to start this match especially with how much more of a soap opera Dusty was able to go toe to toe with anything Spielberg or Shakespeare had done.

I like the escape-surrender aspect. You could book this for such a huge pop at some point but I reckon not given what I’m sure will be a healthy cut of the military-industrial complex they got once going public.

[El-P]

19 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

there is no The Rock coming in to take the spotlight

Well... that has been the plan for years now. I doubt it will happen at this point, but really now, the big plan for Roman was always the Rock at Mania.

And the irony is, CM Punk coming to work I would guess a part-timer schedule and a big-ass match at Mania basically makes him everything he "rebelled" against back in the days.

27 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

I don't why else he would go back to WWE when he doesn't need the money or the headaches.

Because he's a petty douchebag prima-donna posturing as a guy with ethics ?

The Bret Hart cosplaying spots are gonna be even more hilarious in WWE, all thing considered. Although I find pretty fascinating that guys like him and Dax, who say they adore Bret's work so much, are so into giving barrage of chops, which is the one thing that Bret totally hated.

[Jmare007]

I'm all for having fun and laughing at wrestlers being carnies but for some reason Punk being one of them rubs people the wrong way and they have to make a point of telling others how much of a carny he really is. It's not 2005-2010, he's not a rebel. He's just another wrestler finding ways to get people to support him so he can make as much money as possible, lol.

 

And PS: I really hate the way Seth Rollins wrestles, but I do have to salute him for the amount of effort he's putting into this so he and Punk can have a worked shoot feud with a bunch of "pipe boms" promos that WWE fans will lose their shit to.

[Embrodak]

Punk’s whole deal is that he’s from an underprivileged background and he “keeps it real”, unafraid to make enemies and hold grudges but the height of generosity and ecumenism with his friends. I think the contradictions and cracks and inconsistencies actually make him more endearing as a performer and personality, but it’s not hard to see why him being a hypocritical carny who signs up to work for a company he’s had nearly a decade of contempt for after having a falling out with the one company where he could have made a genuine, lasting difference over stuff that seems extremely petty from the outside would rub people the wrong way.

[KawadaSmile]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

Well... that has been the plan for years now. I doubt it will happen at this point, but really now, the big plan for Roman was always the Rock at Mania.

It is not gonna happen, man. Even if they wanted that at one point, which I doubt, that ship sailed a long, long time ago. The Rock returning at all this year was essentially a coincidence IIRC. Endgame is Codester vs Roman II.

Can plans change? Yeah, but it's unlikely Rock will come back at over 50 years old after his body was torn to shreds against Cena, and he still has his eyes on regaining his place as a top movie draw.

[MoS]

10 hours ago, El-P said:

The funniest is Punk saying "I'm a different person" at the press conference. Oh yeah, now you're so different and mature, as the world got to witness the past year. 

BTW, remember Jade Cargill ?

2023 has just been a completely batshit crazy-ass year for pro-wrestling.

I think it's actually Hunter who said that at the conference, not Punk. I don't think Punk is the kind of person who would admit to changing too much. In his mind, it is probably akin to Bret returning to WWE. 

Hunter did address Jade at the conference. He said they still have big plans for her, but basically implied that she sucks in the ring and that it is AEW's fault for not developing her in-ring skills properly. 

[DMJ]

- Rock vs. Roman was definitely a longshot because of the scheduling, but it wasn't fan fic. The Head of the Table/Tribal Chief gimmick was very much designed to keep that potential match as a pay-off. I still think it can happen, just not this year. I mean, its wrestling. Never say never. Steve Austin wrestled 2 years ago. I don't see The Rock getting injured against Cena being enough to stop him from working with Roman, even if an injury could postpone filming Fast and Furious 12 or whatever. Just like Rock vs. Brock was "in the cards" for years but never happened, Rock vs. Roman is one of those matches that is so clearly on the wishlist every year. The window is closing, but its not closed yet.

- As I wrote before, this Rollins stuff is definitely a work. The Drew thing, I'm not so sure. If McIntyre really is pissed about CM Punk coming back or about the company getting behind him...I hate to say it, but someone needs to pull him aside and just tell him, "Dude, the WWE is just not that into you."

McIntyre wants to be at that top, top level, it seems, but its obvious that it will never happen. Instead of being content, like Kevin Owens is, like Finn Balor seems to be, like AJ Styles seems to be, like Lashley seems to be, like Sheamus seems to be, McIntyre seems frustrated with where he is on the pecking order. Or that's at least how it appears from the outside. I doubt the company is low-balling him money-wise. A motivated Drew McIntyre is still a valuable guy to have on your roster and the WWE has no real reason to low-ball him. I think its just the age-old story of a guy who still thinks he's got a Main Event Run in him, but a company that's saying, "We want you to be like the new Kane: a gatekeeper, putting over the next generation."

- One guy who I don't think will be putting over the next generation is CM Punk. My prediction is that Punk is going to be kept in a bubble. In AEW, the guy got into it with Jack Perry and Hangman Page and eventually the Bucks and Tony Khan and, according to rumor, also seemingly had issue with Christopher Daniels, Regal, Matt Hardy, and Ryan Nemeth. I bring this up to highlight the somewhat wide swath of folks that Punk seemingly didn't get along with (not to mention Colt Cabana). Even if you agree with every choice CM Punk made as an AEW wrestler and believe him to be in the right in every conflict, I still think we're talking about a guy who maybe shouldn't really be put in a position where he's gonna be in close quarters with a bunch of hungry new main eventers and random midcard guys and unproven rookies and carny old timers. 

I don't expect to see CM Punk getting the invite to work with the NXT talent. I don't think CM Punk is going to take some new team under his wing like he did with FTR or Ricky Starks or even MJF. 

I think he's coming in to work 4-5 big shows a year against the opponents that are willing to work with him and that Triple H trusts he can work with. Rollins? A company guy, through-and-through, who is trusted by management and (I believe) would be comfortable losing to Punk if that's what Triple H wants (just like he did with Cody). I'd add the name Finn Balor to the list. Selfless opponent who is seemingly content putting over whoever they want him to, no ego. I think Shinsuke Nakamura would put over CM Punk in a heartbeat because he also seems to be fine putting over whoever the boss asks him to. Then you've got Cody Rhodes. I think Cody would work with Punk, but I guess the question is whether Punk would put Cody over. I think Punk would. 

I don't think Reigns has any interest in working with Punk. Maybe I'm wrong.

I don't think AJ Styles has any interest in working with him.

I'd be curious to know if Kevin Owens or Sami Zayn would want to, but I'd expect they'd be more likely to team with him than feud with him. 

I don't think Triple H wants to have Punk go over the guys that are being built up for the future like Solo Sikoa or GUNTHER or Jey Uso or Jimmy Uso. I don't think they'd trust Logan Paul to work with him, just because Paul is still green and Punk is injury-prone.

And, while those might all be great matches, I think Triple H recognizes - unlike Tony Khan - that you don't bring in CM Punk for "great matches" or to get your next crop of main eventers over or to build your company around; you bring in CM Punk because of the name and the controversy and then you put him in the position to tell a story and draw. And that happens easiest, with the least amount of backstage trouble, by putting him in the ring with the guys you and he trust. And, backstage, you try to give him the same treatment as Brock Lesnar and you set it up so that he's not there to "produce" Johnny Gargano or help Ricochet get to the next level or become a mentor to Bronson Reed, but there to do his business and that's it. 
 

[El-P]

29 minutes ago, MoS said:

Hunter did address Jade at the conference. He said they still have big plans for her, but basically implied that she sucks in the ring and that it is AEW's fault for not developing her in-ring skills properly. 

Yeah, I saw that. This is hilariously petty.  "Yeah, we got Jade, she's a huge star but she also sucks because she comes from AEW, so we have to re-train her from zero now". I mean, I'm sure the long-term narrative is "WWE created Jade Cargill", whatever she'll end up being. I said the best way to debut her was at the Rumble, because it's easy for her to look like a thousand bucks throwing smaller girls around. Maybe that's what they'll do. The hype of the jump is definitely gone though, and now that CM Punk's back, he'll soon overshadow everything anyway like he did in AEW, for better or worse.

[NintendoLogic]

According to Cagematch, Jade has had 64 matches in her career. She's only had four singles matches go longer than ten minutes, and the longest went 11:41. You simply can't develop as a worker with that little ring time.

[strobogo]

I don't really even think the comment about Jade was that petty. She literally was put on TV with like 2 months of training and then did 2 years of squash matches. AEW doesn't have a training system, doesn't do a real house show schedule, so she was on the job training her entire AEW run. It is no fault of her own that she's still quite rough around the edges. She's got the look an ability to be a huge star for WWE and it only makes sense that they'd want to make sure she can actually go out and do stuff expected out of main event level women in WWE.