"He's ambitiously stupid" - Why Scott Keith's new book is scary bad

[tomk]

A couple years ago I saw a Tommy Rich v Snuka match. There is about six-seven years difference in age I think. Both guys were huge recreational drug users who I imagine could have gone line for line over the course of their careers. Both guys probably took the same amount of bumps (not many) and I'm not sure of Rich crossbody is anymore or less damaging on the body than the Superfly splash. Both of them also put more weight on their bodies than their knees can probably support (Snuka through steroids and Rich through boilermakers). Snuka is completely imobile while Rich is pretty spry for a fat man and did the bulk of the work for the match.

[BruiserBrody]

Keith went back to his Owen hart would've been world champ had he not died story again today... Can't fathom that in the least.

[sek69]

Yeah I don't get how he thinks that it was such a slam dunk certain thing. It seems like he bases it on the idea that since the titles changed so frequently in the Russo era that he would have got it eventually, but even with all the frequent switches it was only really between a handful of guys (Rock, Austin, Foley, Taker) with guys like Kane occasionally as transition champs.

 

Not to speak ill, but Owen was clearly pegged as midcard for life at the time of his accident. Even if there was a chance he would have been considered at any point, surely the influence of HBK and HHH would have made sure he would have never got above IC level at best.

[Al]

I disagree. If Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero received title runs, it's inevitable that Owen Hart does as well. Provided he had the desire to stick around in the business. 1999 it's highly unlikely yes.

[kjh]

To be fair to HBK and HHH, the influence of Steve Austin was perhaps a bigger detriment to his career post Montreal, as they were. If the biggest star in the company steadfastly refuses to work a program with you, you're pretty screwed. Scott points to the talent pool eventually thinning out, but let's face it Owen wasn't going to be given the big World title push before Kurt Angle or Chris Jericho or Brock Lesnar or even Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero were, by which point Owen would be pushing 40 and who knows whether he would even still want to wrestle at that point. I think in all likelihood Owen's career would have finished like Lance Storm's, he would've got out when he had saved up enough money, started get banged up and saw the writing on the wall as far as his future in WWE was concerned.

[kjh]

With regards to Al's point, I think it should be noted that all three of them were younger than Owen, Jericho and Eddy were much more charismatic and better on the mic than Owen ever was, Benoit (and Eddy too) was much more respected as a super worker than Owen was and perhaps most importantly Owen would have never juiced up as much as Benoit and Eddy did to get noticed by Vince McMahon. I see Owen as a respected veteran worker used to groom young stars in line for the big push and help green workers improve in the ring, rather than someone who would ever break out of the pack and get given that big push himself.

[sek69]

I'm pretty sure that Owen was winding down at the time of his accident, didn't Vince or someone in the company have to talk him into staying after the Montreal stuff? Between that and the political situation I don't see him getting a world title run.

[MikeCampbell]

I'm not saying he would never have gotten it, but I'm having a hard time to figure out where he'd have gotten the strap.

 

The night of the accident UT won it from Austin, and Austin won it back a month later.

 

HHH was being prepped as the next top guy, I guess they could have put Owen in Mick's place for the one night run, but that wouldn't make much sense, HHH/Mick already had the angle where HHH hurt his knee.

 

Vince won it from HHH strictly to set up the six pack match at Unforgiven, and it went back to HHH. No reason for Owen to get it here.

 

Maybe they could have put Owen in Big Show's spot for the Survivor Series '99 3 way match with HHH and Rock. Jarrett was already gone to WCW. It's not too "out there" to think that Owen's Blue Blazer gimmick might have turned him babyface, the same thing happened with The Hurricane a couple years later. But that was only to keep it warm until they went back to HHH and finally made him a major player

 

2000 was dominated by HHH and Rock. Again, maybe sub Owen for Big Show for the WrestleMania deal, but they only got Show in there with the goofy Rumble finish that they couldn't pull off with Owen.

 

2001 was Austin/Rock and then Austin/Angle, Austin wasn't going to work with Owen. I guess they could have given Owen the WCW Title at the time, but that leaves Jericho in the cold, and the whole point of the Jericho push was to put him in the main event.

 

2002 started with Jericho, who'd probably have a good program with Owen, certainly better than Austin/Jericho. But the point was trying to establish Jericho, no reason to put it on him then. HHH over Jericho was the climax to HHH's comeback after his quad tear. HHH lost to Hogan because of his huge popularity with his comeback. Hogan dropped it to UT when it quickly faded. I don't see Hogan putting over Owen. It went to Rock strictly so he could put over Brock before leaving again. Owen could have fit in there I guess. And then they split the titles.

 

So the only real chances to give him the title all feature him as a transitional champion while they made someone else into a star.

[Loss]

This will probably spark some debate, but really think about peak period Owen and how over he was. We'll say, 1994. Then think about Benoit, Jericho, Eddy, Rey, etc. and how over they were at their respective peaks. Fans sort of insisted on those guys being pushed in top spots and they had a pretty organic climb to the top. Owen might have fallen in that category in a different time, as the wrestling fan mindset was much different this decade than in 1994, but there was never that fan demand for Owen to get his shot on top, that was there for Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, and Misterio.

[Bob Morris]

I tend to side with Kevin on this one. I never really saw WWF intent on pushing Owen as the top guy, even for the short term. The company has a greater interest in pushing the most charismatic guys (although with HHH, his character in 1999 never caught on until the Steph heel turn) and while Owen had charisma, he didn't have the amount the likes of Austin, Jericho, Rock and Foley did.

 

Plus, there was always the talk from Bret that Owen was just planning to ride out the remainder of his contract because he wanted to spend time with his family. I doubt WWF would ever get behind somebody who was just there to finish his obligations and then move on to the next chapter in his life.

[kjh]

Loss makes an excellent point. It's pretty clear for Owen to get a World title run the fans would have to get behind him to the point that it was enough to overcome Vince McMahon's prejudices about him as a talent, like Benoit, Jericho, Eddy, Rey, RVD and Jeff Hardy did. It's hard to see how that would happen given the context of Owen's career post Montreal. He was used to put over talent they had higher hopes for (Triple H and Ken Shamrock) or worked with green guys who needed help in the ring (Edge, Dan Severn and Steve Blackman) or placed in a tag team when they had run out of things for him to do as a singles star. Maybe the Blue Blazer gimmick would have taken off big, but that's a long shot as it was being booked as a comedy character. Sure, he was going to get an IC title run, but by that point the title was a joke, bouncing around career midcarders like Val Venis, Road Dogg, Goldust and the Godfather in very short order.

[JMFabianoRPL]

Here's a question: would Owen's status have gotten better when Bret and Vince made up? And assuming fate would remain the same for the others later on, would Owen benefit in that he'd be pushed better to "promote" the Wellness Program? (This based on the talk that he wasn't WWF-type "star" material) Ironically, that was part of Bret's rise, no? To counteract the steroid scandals? (Though that seemed more consistent, the WP era now is more random)

[S.L.L.]

Owen's post-'99 career is kinda tricky to read.

 

If we work under the assumption that Owen would have stuck it out for the long haul, and that he would have maintained roughly the same level of popularity he had at the time of his death, he'd only be 42 in 2007, and he'd be 44 today. I think it's feasible that in the last two years, he could've had a run as ECW champion. Loss was right. There wasn't the demand to give Owen the belt that there was for Benoit/Eddie/Rey/RVD/Jericho. That said, probably as much or more demand to give him the belt than Chavo Guerrero or Mark Henry. I think it's feasible.

[tomk]

Then think about Benoit, Jericho, Eddy, Rey, etc. and how over they were at their respective peaks. Fans sort of insisted on those guys being pushed in top spots and they had a pretty organic climb to the top.

 

Is that really accurate?

 

I would say that it's true about Eddie. Where when you followed the Observer it was pretty clear that his rise was organic and the organic quality of it semi pissed management off. I remember lots written about the Big Show Us title feud beign an attempt to cut off and control the response he was geting. There was a sense that the fans forced their hand with Eddie.

 

But Benoit and Jericho both feel like guys who were pushed to title as sub Ronnie Garvin placeholders...if you want to be real cynical as guys to help HHH get his 16 world title run. Vince announcing that Benoit was "4 real" wasn't him responding to the crowd but him concerned that the fans needed to be told.

 

I think the WWF had enough of a seniority system that Owen would probably have had a title run, welll not a run so much as being put in the Hardcore Holly/ Kane position of guy who is meaningless veteran challenger (who like Kane not Holly) could get quicky title win and just as quickly loose it back.

[kjh]

That said, probably as much or more demand to give him the belt than Chavo Guerrero or Mark Henry. I think it's feasible.

Then again, Finlay's been in the respected veteran worker role on ECW for a year now and he's still waiting for his token run with the title.

[Ditch]

Tom, I think something in your writing short-circuits my brain. I've had to re-write this way more than it's worth. I think your point is that Eddie wasn't seriously pushed by WWE in a "giving him a chance to get main-event heat" way, but he got over anyway and Vince gave up and let him have a title. As opposed to others who were more deliberately pushed to the title on WWF/WWE's part.

 

Benoit I'd tend to agree on. He was pushed from the outset as being on HHH's level, then as a strong contender to Rock (Fully Loaded '00), Austin (after WM17), then he got hurt and before too long after his return was put in a high-profile match with Angle (RR '03) that was obviously supposed to be a four-star crowd-pleasing match, then a year later he was the planned winner months in advance for WM20's main event. By comparison Eddie got crappy gimmicks (Chyna's boyfriend, a guy stealing golf carts) and had very few world title shots before winning. So the hand wasn't really forced for Benoit. He was never a 'face of the company' kind of guy, they pushed him as much as one could reasonably expect. Miniscule chance he'd have been an IWGP champ if he stayed in Japan.

 

Rey I think was a 'hand was forced' deal. Sold merchandise, drew ratings, great crowd response in situations that weren't always designed to pop the crowd. Squashed every now and then to put over monsters in a way that expected future world champs never are. Vince clearly begrudged Rey getting the belt, I mean look at the lack of kayfabe momentum heading into his win and how he was swatted down after it.

 

Jericho as well. Pretty clear he wasn't thought of as world title material coming in. Rather than have him feud with Rock after his hot debut segment, they shuffled him into a feud with friggin' Chyna (including a very ugly loss) and then put him in essentially cruiserweight matches with Benoit for much of 2000. Oh and he suffered one of the most blatant 'face loses clean to heel in gimmick match' losses to HHH that I can remember when he first got hot as a face. Gets the push alongside Benoit after WM17, only Jericho was the lesser man and Benoit himself wasn't pushed as a superstar, just a good rassler. At Summerslam 2001, the big follow-up to the Invasion, Jericho feuded with... Rhino. Whoopee. Then they finally went back to the Jericho/Rock feud they failed to do in '99, and quickly enough Jericho was getting split crowd reactions, if not more support than Rock. He'd gotten great heat and reactions but it took two years for him to have a singles match for a world title on PPV. And then he won and they cut him off at the knees. Jericho was getting more 'superstar'-type heat than Benoit, as opposed to 'good worker respekt' heat, and after No Mercy '01 he got pushed as a guy who had no business having a world title. That squares much more with 'fan-forced push that Vince resented' than it does 'Jericho was a handy semi-over fall guy that they planned 6 months in advance to be fodder for HHH'. Benoit's reign was during the post-mania letdown, and he dropped it at the first big PPV and promptly dropped out of the title scene; Vince pushed Benoit as much as fans really cared to have Benoit pushed. Jericho was in the title scene for Survivor Series through Mania, hardly a placeholder reign, and that's because of the reactions he got. The differences in how Benoit was pushed before his big win, and how Jericho was pushed, and in the way that they were over, is somewhat subtle but I think it's clear.

 

Owen never got that level of crowd response during a much longer WWF run, even when put in some high-profile feuds. I can see him as the veteran-who-puts-over-champ-on-Raw. I can maybe see him as champ if he got over during the early '00s when they re-emphasized in-ring action. But they re-emphasized wrestling in '94 when he got his biggest push and he didn't get especially over, certainly not the way the ex-WCW Cruiserweights did.

[Dylan Waco]

It's impossible to know for sure, and I see Loss point, but I think IF he had been active he would have ended up with the belt by 03 at the latest. I don't think he ever would have gotten a major run mind you, but I just supect it would have happened eventually.

[ohtani's jacket]

The best time to push Owen would've been during the Black Hart return, but we all know what happened there. The only other time would've been during 1994, but we know all about that too. After '98 and '99, I don't see Owen sticking with the company let alone winning one of the two world titles. There was always Scoop level talk about Owen getting a run against Austin, but when you really think about it, they couldn't even book the Ministry of Darkness or Hit and Run Driver to be a compelling opponent for Austin.

 

I do wonder whether he could've stuck around in a Finlay type role or whether he'd have gone to TNA.

[ohtani's jacket]

Whoah, Owen wasn't over in '94? That's news to me.

[Ditch]

Over, yes. But that DEGREE of over?

[ohtani's jacket]

Was anyone over enough in '94 to force a change of plans? Was the WWF even booked like that?

 

I wish someone had spared us Diesel's run.

[S.L.L.]

That said, probably as much or more demand to give him the belt than Chavo Guerrero or Mark Henry. I think it's feasible.

Then again, Finlay's been in the respected veteran worker role on ECW for a year now and he's still waiting for his token run with the title.

 

Well, feasible, not guaranteed.

[tomk]

Tom, I think something in your writing short-circuits my brain. I've had to re-write this way more than it's worth. I think your point is that Eddie wasn't seriously pushed by WWE in a "giving him a chance to get main-event heat" way, but he got over anyway and Vince gave up and let him have a title. As opposed to others who were more deliberately pushed to the title on WWF/WWE's part.

 

That's not really my point. That's a side argument to my point.

 

I don't want to get into the exact history of Jericho's 2002 push either, its been along time since I read the Won/Torch type backstage gossip from that period. I think you're sense of fan reaction and timeline is accurate. Worth pointing out that most of this was during the 8 month period HHH was out with injury, Jericho won the undisputed title I want to say a week before HHH's actual return.

 

I'd agree that Rey was also a crowd forced hand situation. Although should be noted that that hand has been kept pretty tight...despite being one of the few attendance, ratings, and merch draws they have...he's still a guy who they are content to keep hovering around the undercard.

 

My Actual point was:

-HHH wants to be 17 time world champion.

-Inorder to do that he needs to loose the belt several times inorder to win it back.

-He needs credible opponents who aren't over enough to be able to anchor the promotion without him

 

That sounds like an conspiratorially HHH is evil internet screed.

It's not intended as such, as there is nothing uniquely HHH to it, that's the way the biz works.

 

Ron Garvin is willing to loose clean to Flair (which Dusty won't do). Isn't a guy who is over enough that people will want to see him v other heels. He isn't a threat to either Dusty or Flair.. He's an ideal guy to trade the title with.

 

Owen not being a guy who is super over isn't something that would keep him from getting a quickie title.

It feels like something that works in his favor.

[kjh]

Rey really wasn't a "crowd forced hand" situation, it was more a "circumstances forced hand" deal. Rey was sixth in line for the belt, but Eddie dropped dead, Batista tore his triceps, Shawn wouldn't work Tuesdays, Angle was on the verge of breaking down both physically and mentally, and Orton was a big headache at the time who had to be punished, so Rey became champion by default.

[sek69]

The Monday Night Wars shows On Demand just started into 1998 and it's so painfully obvious that A: The fans were dying for even a brief Owen run as champ to get revenge for Montreal and B: DX was going to make sure that didn't happen for the same reason. I've never been a guy to get all hot and bothered over backstage POLITIXXX, but watching these shows with the knowledge of why certain things did or didn't happen makes me kind of mad.