The greatest things ever written on wrestling message boards

[stunning_grover]

I came across an old discussion from 2003 and I liked it so much that it made me think about this thread.

 

Remember how around 2003 almost everyone seemed to think Kurt Angle was really great? Kurt Angle actually became one of my least favourite wrestlers partially because of that. And we have been speaking about trends in another thread, but I think the Kurt Angle hype was one of the worst trends ever.

 

Anyway...

 

I found the following from Wrestling Classics message board in 2003...

 

It's from a discussion about whether or not Kurt Angle should be in the WON Hall of Fame...

 

And I really like what jdw wrote in reply to Paul Miller's statement...

 

Paul Miller wrote:

These last two years by Angle have been as special as any I've ever seen and I have never seen a wrestler start out and be as strong of a wrestler as Kurt Angle.

jdw wrote:

Kurt broke into pro wrestling in late 1998. It's now early 2003, roughly four and a half years after his debut.

 

Jumbo debuted in early 1973. By 1977 he had two Tokyo Sports Match of the Years under his belt already, had at least two other matches in those two years that were even better than the winner, was the #2 star in his promotion, was the best worker in his country and one of the best in the world.

 

Kenta Kobashi debuted in early 1988. He was working MOTYC by 1990, and three years into his career he was the best worker in the work. Four and a half years into his career he was roughly two years into being the best worker in the world, something he would hold for another year and challenge for the rest of the decade.

 

Juventud Guerrera debuted in March 1992. By 1995 he was a superlative worker, so good that he performed in two matches rated by Dave at ****3/4 on one card, and was acknowledge by all four us sitting there (including Dave) as the best peformer on the card, which also included Psic and Rey at their very peaks. He's bag another pair of ****3/4 ratings from Dave the followin March, one in ECW and one in TJ... and I've never seen Angle work at the level of Juve in that TJ match. Those were four years after his debut... and that's ignoring the great matches he had going back to 1994 in AAA.

 

Shinjito Ohtani debuted on 06/25/92. Four and a half years into his career? Are you kidding me? By the end of 1994 he was in that exceptional tag with Black Tiger, Wild Pegasus and Great Sasuke that smokes all of the tags on SmackDown over the past year. In 1995 it was *he* less than three years into his career, who along with BT and Pegasus lifted Koji Kanemoto out of the sloppy choking worker he'd been for years (even against Liger) and turned him into the worker that's been praised since. In 1996 he turned out four of the greatest junior matches of all-time against four different opponents - Samurai, Benoit, Liger and Dragon. In between those he found time to work very good matches with UWF wrestlers Masahito Kakihara and Kazushi Sakuraba blending New Japan's strong-style with their UWF-style in a fine "bend-but-don't-break" fashion. Jimminy, Ohtani was so good in late 1995 and into 1996 that Dave thought he was going to be the one to finally break the stranglehold on the #1 spot that Kawada, Kobashi and Misawa held for the past five years. This wasn't Angle being considered "maybe" the best worker in the world at a time when the quality of work worldwide has sunk straight into the toilet. This was Ohtani challenging the legendary AJPW Big 3 at the very height of their working skills.

 

Really, Paul... you need to watch more wrestling.

[Childs]

I was amused by the line about Dynamite and Sayama testifying to Rocco's greatness. That's like the perfect circle jerk of overrated 1980s juniors. I wonder if, in some alternate universe, Marty Jones, Kuniaki Kobayashi and Chavo Guerrero are gushing over one another. That would be a world I'd rather live in.

[MJH]

I realise you're being... but as overlooked as Kobayashi or Marty Jones or Chavo Sr may pr may not have been, there's not a wrestler in that time frame who'd take their names as recommendations over Dynamite and Sayama. Love it or loathe it they're the legends of that generation.

 

But surely had Dave gone through with Ohtani > Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada that'd be worse hyperboly than anything he's ever written Angle-related unless I've missed him calling Kurt the best ever?

[sek69]

I understand the thrill people get over being contrarian on the interwebs, but even with that it's a stretch to say DK was overrated. Sure he was probably the biggest douchebag in the history of wrestling outside the ring (and think about the ground that covers), but it's crossing the line to willful ignorance to not acknowledge he was doing things in the early 80s very few people could do.

[Childs]

It's not a stretch at all to call him overrated. There are people who seriously call him one of the 20 greatest of all time, and yet it's a struggle to find great matches involving him (there are a few, don't get me wrong). Dynamite was a good athlete and ahead of his time with the risks he was willing to take. But I could say the same for Fujinami or Gran Hamada and their matches hold up as great total performances to this day. For the purposes of this debate, I don't care that Dynamite was a dick. But I also don't care that he was influential or regarded as "the standard" at some point. I'm not saying that he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, just that his actual matches weren't great.

[Dylan Waco]

He was doing things that others couldn't do isn't the best argument that he was a great worker unless one wants to argue Jack Evans and Jarelle Clark are two of the best in wrestling history.

[jdw]

But surely had Dave gone through with Ohtani > Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada that'd be worse hyperboly than anything he's ever written Angle-related unless I've missed him calling Kurt the best ever?

I think you're misreading what's being said above.

 

Ohtani was born in 1972, debuted in 1995, and was considered so good that it looked to some that he would be the one to eventually break through the stranglehold the Misawa-Kawada-Kobashi group had on the "best worker in the world" mantra of the era.

 

Misawa: born in 1962, debuted in 1981

Kawada: born in 1963, debuted in 1982

Kobashi: born in 1967, debuted in 1988

 

There's the expericance and age factor: look at how much better than three got as the spent more time in the business, grew, etc. Ohtani was a pup, and projecting forward the potential for growth is pretty natural.

 

It's what we did with Windham in 1986/87. Shawn Michaels in 1991... hell, both of those guys had more experiance and were older at those points than Ohtani.

 

It's what we did with young Yamada/Liger, Owen, Akiyama, Mutoh, Benoit, Eddy, Juve, Rey, a slew of Joshi wrestlers, etc.

 

It's what people did with Angle, Brock, Austin, Triple H, and on down the line.

 

I'm not say above that in 1997 there was a concensus that Ohtani was the best in the world. I don't recall there being one, and my recollection is that his J-Crown reign in 1997 into 1998 was one of the things that took the bloom off the rose.

 

I'm saying that it was pretty common in hardcore circles in late 1995 and early 1996 for the not-quite 24 year old Ohtani to be talked about as one of the very few young guys with the potential to be the heir to the AJPW guys for that worker crown.

 

=============

 

Setting aside what became of Ohtani, I tend to think the comp points are reasonable for Angle up to that point in his career, especially Kobashi and Ohtani. By "reasonable", I mean that they were better than Angle was up to that point in his career in the ring.

 

John

[MJH]

FTR, I agree entirely on that final point. And projecting where Ohtani might've rose to, realistically he should've developed more and become the best worker in Japan by 1999/2000... I find myself making a lot of digs towards the juniors recently hmm...

 

But I find myself actually becoming something of an Angle apologist/defender without being a particularly big fan. You could make the comparison to Ohtani but maybe Windham's a better play; a guy who got really good frighteningly quick but didn't live up to the early potential/hype (was it yourself or Frank who ran down maybe at tOA the advantages Jumbo had by comparison given Angle spent his entire development in WWF/E?) and together with a variety of other factors in Angle's case, had it held against him more than he's probably deserved. He's a deluded fuck who should've retired Godknowswhen ago, and it's scary to hear him talk the way his voice seems to have lost all ability for articulation at this point, but he was really good for 3/4 years there. Without the "best in the world/HOF" brigade I think people would be far more accepting and receptive of his upside (plentiful) as opposed to focusing as much as they do on his downside.

[Bix]

Cox posted this elsewhere:

Fuck you guys, Tommy Dreamer is awesome. The man quit an office job where he was probably set for life so he could wrestle on the WWE C-brand as the modern-day Brooklyn Brawler, got a sympathy title reign on a whim from Vince, and then quit that job so he could get paid less to wrestle for the #2 wrestling company in the world, where he will likely be just as low on the card as he was in WWE. The man is the living embodiment of the wrestling business.

[Bix]

By the way, does anyone have any of the old Zach Arnold stuff about how Takayama and Suzuki were like backyarders because they wouldn't take head drops? He even called them "The Backyarders" in results when they wrestled as a team.

[El-P]

Didn't remember those ones. I do remember him calling them and Sasaki "crowbars" though...

 

Did I miss something about Dreamer ? Where does he works now ?

[Cox]

He quit WWE over the weekend, and at one time it was rumored so he could go to TNA in a few months. I don't think WWE would have given him such a nice sendoff last night if it was to go to TNA, though I guess he could have taken a backstage job there.

[Bix]

From the always-enlightening Tamalie:

 

Here are some of the many things that chipped away at JCP in 1988:

 

- Ron Garvin was completely buried after losing the NWA World Title. He went from being a main eventer to off the map in about a month, making his title reign seem even worse in retrospect than at the time.

 

- Big Bubba Rogers bolted for the WWF. Even after being poorly used to a great extent during the second half of 1987, he was still fairly over and had undeniable talent. This was an asset that JCP could not afford to lose.

 

- The Bunkhouse Stampede PPV was a complete fiasco. It not only hurt JCP in the PPV market, but killed them in New York as well. Their debut at Nassau Coliseum in November of 1987 drew about 12,000 fans. After this lousy card, things went downhill until JCP was out of the market after April 1988 and WCW didn't go back until early 1991.

 

- The manner in which the UWF and Florida territories had been destroyed in 1987 left JCP largely unable to draw in the cities those promotions once ran in 1988.

 

- In the shake out of former UWF and Florida talent, Eddie Gilbert and Terry Taylor left the promotion when both men could have really freshened up JCP proper had they been pushed as a heel combo. Later in 1988, Eddie came back inexplicably as a babyface when the promotion could have better used him on the heel side of the fence.

 

- It wouldn't have drawn anyway, but the amateur manner in which JCP terminated the photos angle with Dusty vs. Zbyszko and Baby Doll was the kind of thing that drove fans mad. Why get invested in an angle, good or bad, if it might be pulled within weeks and never mentioned again? (see Midnight Rider)

 

- Nikita Koloff was not as over by early 1988 and the physique that was part of his gimmick had softened, but he was still viewed as a major star. Then he took a sabattical in February and March and returned much, much leaner and with a flat top. Getting off the gas probably helped his health, but it ruined his gimmick and Nikita was just another midcard babyface after once being an incredibly over main event to semi main event wrestler.

 

- The Midnight Rider angle was a total bomb and was abandoned in a matter of weeks despite almost unprecedented hype. They even wasted letting a heel put his hands on Magnum TA, something that could have been big under the right circumstances, on this angle. Bad or not, the way in which this angle was built up and then dropped didn't beg fans to get invested in any storylines.

 

- Barry Windham's turn was a well executed angle and BW made a great heel afterwards, but there was no prior indication that a turn was coming and it came off as desperation.

 

- They pushed the Powers of Pain out the door by forcing them into unnecessary scaffold matches that they refused to work. This was the 3rd time in about 18 months JCP used the scaffold match gimmick even though they're generally so lousy that fans have seen enough after just one.

 

- After losing Warlord and Barbarian, JCP brought Dave Sheldon in as The Russian Assassin to team with Ivan Koloff. After seeing Nikita in his 1984-86 prime, no one was going for this act. Jack Victory coming as Russian Assassin II only made things worse.

 

- The Jimmy Garvin-Precious-Kevin Sullivan angle was one of JCP's most pushed angles of mid 1988, but it didn't get over as well as had been hoped and elements of this story turned off fans who didn't go for some of Sullivan's weird booking.

 

- Ron Garvin turned heel with even less notice or reason than Barry Windham. Then Garvin quit just when the heel turn was getting going. JCP comically claimed Dusty had beaten Garvin up in a hotel parking lot and put him out of wrestling for months, only for Ron to turn up on AWA TV within a week or two.

 

- The Rock & Roll Express left in early 1988, which was fine since they were pretty played out. Then they returned for no apparent reason in mid 1988, only for Robert to quit in a hurry after getting shorted on a payoff. Ricky stayed around, floundering in the midcard, until leaving too about a month later.

 

- The Tully and Arn vs. MX feud was gaining momentum, only for Tully and Arn to quit with 24 hours notice and kill the feud dead. This also ripped the heart out of the Four Horsemen.

 

- The Road Warriors turned on Sting and then on Luger when he tried to make the save. They followed it up with an attack on Dusty. It was a big shock to see the LOD as heels again, but the fans didn't really want to boo them, especially against Dusty so it was kind of self defeating. Had they feuded with Sting and Luger, it may have had more of a chance.

 

- The Sheepherders quit to move to the WWF even though they were in the US Tag Team Tourney final against The Fantastics and had been booked in a flag match against the same team at Starrcade '88 that had already been announced. JCP had to come up with an excuse to overturn the Sheepherders' semi-final win over Eddie Gilbert and Ron Simmons to rebook the final.

 

- Steve Williams turned heel by sending in a staggeringly awful promo from Japan, despite there being no indication that a turn was imminent.

 

- Nikita Koloff quit to be with his ailing wife while teaming with Uncle Ivan against the Russian Assassins. The promotion's answer was to bring in Junkyard Dog, fresh off of being fired by the WWF for the second time in less than two years and pushing him as if it was still 1983 when JYD was one of the biggest stars in the biz.

 

- Likely as a favor to Gary Hart, Abdullah The Butcher was hired despite them not having any sort of role for him and despite the promotion starting to cut down a bit on the blood it had overused during the past few years.

 

- There were lots of other really strange booking decisions like giving Steve Williams and the Italian Stallion a LOT of time at a Clash instead of having the newly heel turned Doc just murder him, making John Ayres the special ref for some Flair-Lex rematches despite no one really knowing or caring who he was, booking money losing house shows in some markets the promotion had no hope of drawing in, messing up the Crockett Cup brackets after having some no shows and ending up with the Sheepherders wrestling twice in the second round, killing long term markets by turning off fans with one screw job finish after another, plus many other blunders.

The more I look at the WWF during its expansion year of 1984, the more I think the entire promotion was very unfocused and disorganized in its booking. Problems inevitably came up due to the WWF expanding at such a fast pace in 1984 that it seemed to be unable to keep everything in place.

 

- It went from producing Championship Wrestling and All Star Wrestling as syndicated shows to adding the original version of Superstars plus Maple Leaf Wrestling for Canada and Wrestling At The Chase for St. Louis as well. It went from airing the odd MSG card and All American Wrestling on USA to also having Prime Time Wrestling and TNT. The WWF brought aboard World Championship Wrestling and Best of World Championship Wrestling on WTBS too.

 

- The talent roster swelled. From the final couple of weeks in 1983 through the end of 1984, in came Hulk Hogan, David Schults, Roddy Piper, Greg Valentine, Bob Orton Jr., Adrian Adonis, Dick Murdoch, Nikolai Volkoff, Jesse Ventura, Ken Patera, Brutus Beefcake, Hillbilly Jim, Blackjack Mulligan, Barry Windham, Mike Rotundo, Tonga Kid, Junkyard Dog, Bobby Heenan, Gene Okerlund, Jack Brisco, Jerry Brisco, Bret Hart, Davey Boy Smith, Dynamite Kid, Mr. Wrestling II, The Spoiler, Les Thornton, Mad Dog Vachon, Buddy Rose, Bruno Sammartino, David Sammartino, Mil Mascaras, and Angelo Mosca.

 

- Guys who came in and then departed before the year ended were Michael Hayes, Terry Gordy, Buddy Roberts, Kamala, Buzz Sawyer, Billy Jack, and Brian Blair, meanwhile Tony Atlas left and came back.

 

- Sgt. Slaughter, The Wild Samoans, Bob Backlund, Masked Superstar, and Eddie Gilbert all headed to the exit.

 

- The WWF also ran its first house shows in such places as the Twin Cities, Chicago, Cincinnati, Columbus, Atlanta, Norfolk, Richmond, Memphis, Nashville, Louisville, Birmingham, Miami, Jacksonville, Oakland, Sacramento, Fresno, St. Louis, Kansas City, Toronto, Dallas, Houston, Calgary, Montreal, Winnipeg, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Ottawa, Vancouver, and Oklahoma City. It had already opened up Detroit and Cleveland very late in 1983 and had its syndicated TV in many more markets.

 

The scheduling was often insane with no consideration given to concentrating certain crews in a particular region for several days. John Studd worked consecutive dates in Providence, the Twin Cities, Los Angeles, and Kansas City in November. Tito Santana had a run that took him on consecutive days from Phoenix to Chicago to a TV taping in Poughkeepsie, NY and then Columbus.

 

To me examples of the booking lacking focus are as follows:

 

- Hulk Hogan's title reign in general. Hulk faced a lot of different opponents, but can anyone think of a single notable angle or feud he had that year? He and Schults had a bloodbath in Minneapolis, but what built it up and what came of it? What was behind his matches with the likes of Valentine, Studd, and others?

 

- Andre The Giant vs. Big John Studd was played out in the WWF in 1983, but kept rolling through 1984 and into 1985. The haircut angle at least rebuilt the heat, but it seemed like it was leading to a hair vs. hair match that never happened.

 

- The famous Piper's Pit with Snuka and the coconut was, with the exception of St. Louis TV, not aired for about two months. Why not?

 

- Big John Studd was managed by Freddie Blassie in 1983. Then was managed by Roddy Piper in early 1984 in a forgotten piece of wrestling history. Studd was seconded by Mr. Fuji at least once. Then he was with Bobby Heenan by the fall. I don't think there was a single angle to explain any of this.

 

- Other brief manager/wrestler pairings that came and went in a hurry were Albano/Spoiler, Albano/Patera, Valiant/Spoiler, Heenan/Rose, and Albano/Sawyer.

 

There was also the curious case of Piper managing Orndorff early in the year with Heenan taking over later. Then the Heenan/Orndorff pairing was forgotten in the build up to Wrestlemania in 1985 only to be suddenly remembered when they turned Paul babyface.

 

- At MSG, they had the match pitting Adonis and Murdoch against the Samoans with Albano as referee, torn between the teams. Then they had a six man tag the next month at MSG with Slaughter and the Samoans defeating Albano, Murdoch, and Adonis cleanly in what would seem to have been the blow off match. However, on the next MSG show they inexplicably brought back Afa vs. Murdoch and Sika vs. Adonis in singles bouts.

 

- Captain Lou Albano was pushed big as a heel almost to the very moment he turned babyface, including at TV tapings, as if the WWF decided very late to turn him.

 

- There was the strange deal with Samula going on Piper's Pit and speaking perfect English while standing up to Roddy. It appeared he was going to go after Hot Rod as revenge for Snuka. Then the whole episode was forgotten and Tonga Kid got the push instead.

 

- There was also the continued use of Samula as an undercard heel when Afa and Sika had turned babyface.

 

- The Spoiler was billed as National Champion and Les Thornton as Junior Heavyweight Champion for a few weeks only for the belts to be dropped without further mention.

 

- The general signing of guys they didn't have plans for. Even some guys who got pushed later were stuck on house show prelims without angles for a while.

 

Somehow the WWF prospered in spite of this messy booking and overall planning.

Good call on Championship being a mess. I think the problems began partly when they left Allentown for Poughkeepsie. This may be incorrect, but did they miss a taping somewhere along the line when the switch was made? The historyofwwe.com shows the last Allentown taping as having occurred on 6/19/84 and the final Hamburg taping was on 6/20/84. The first Canadian taping was on 7/10/84, but the first Poughkeepsie taping appears to not have happened until 7/31/84.

 

They taped at the Chase Hotel on 12/27/83, 1/16/84 and in 2/84 on an undetermined date. Then the St. Louis house shows on 2/10/84, 3/2/84, 3/23/84, 4/6/84, 5/5/84, 5/25/84, 6/15/84, 7/20/84, 8/10/84, and 9/1/84 were all used as tapings.

 

Per thehistoryofwwe.com, a Mil Mascaras vs. Bobby Colt match from the 1/16/84 Chase Hotel taping aired on All American as well, but it doesn’t look like anything else from the three hotel tapings turned up on other shows.

 

Once they started taping at the house shows, matches turned up in other places as follows per historyofwwe.com.

 

2/10/84: Wrestling at the Chase, All American, Championship

 

3/2/84: Wrestling at the Chase, Superstars

 

3/23/84: Wrestling at the Chase, All Star

 

4/16/84: Wrestling at the Chase, All American, Superstars

 

5/5/84: No show specified, but labeled a taping.

 

5/25/84: Wrestling at the Chase

 

6/15/84: Superstars, TNT

 

7/20/84: Superstars, TNT

 

8/10/84: Prime Time, TNT

 

9/1/84: TNT

 

Graham’s site is not the gospel, but his results don’t show a match from Superstars until 4/10/84 and his last Wrestling at the Chase results are dated 6/24/84.

Here are some odd results from the Canadian syndicated tapings.

 

7/10/84: A squash win for Gama Singh. Pat Patterson was jobbing towards retirement at the house shows and not getting pushed on TV anymore, but won a squash.

 

8/6/84: Ivan Putski, whom they seemed to have no real plans for, got a count out win over Paul Orndorff. Rare squash wins for The Spoiler, Mad Dog Vachon, and Gama Singh.

 

8/29/84: Dynamite Kid teamed with Bret Hart to win a squash and got another one in singles action. I'm pretty sure neither man appeared stateside for a while.

 

9/24/84: This time Bret Hart teamed with Davey Boy Smith in a squash win while Dynamite worked solo. The Moondogs and Iron Mike Sharpe got squash wins.

 

10/8/84: Big John Studd and Nikolai Volkoff teamed to beat SD Jones and Samula.

 

10/29/84: The Spoiler won a squash with both Captain Lou Albano and Greg Valentine in his corner.

 

11/19/84: The Moondogs won a squash.

 

12/16/84: The Moondogs won another squash and so did The Spoiler who was now managed by Johnny Valiant.

 

1/7/85: Two squash wins for Angelo Mosca Jr. who didn't appear anywhere else on the circuit, but Ontario cards. Andre and JYD teamed to win a squash when they rarely put Andre on TV unless it was for an angle.

 

1/20/85: Bret Hart and George Wells teaming to win a squash. Albano seconding Hillbilly Jim. The Spoiler getting yet another squash win even though he wasn't being pushed at the U.S. tapings. Jim Neidhart worked as a single with Mr. Fuji as his manager.

 

2/20/85: Luc Porier being given a squash win that apparently made TV.

 

3/85: (beginning of the month) Another squash win for Luc Porier, plus George Wells teamed with Tony Atlas to win a squash.

 

3/85: (end of the month) Yet another win for Luc Porier who never wrestled for the WWF stateside, plus a squash win for George Wells and SD Jones.

 

5/25/85: Donna Christenello wins a non title match over Wendi Richter after interference from The Fabulous Moolah. George Wells and SD Jones got another squash win.

 

6/18/85: Lanny Poffo won a squash over Mr. X.

 

7/15/85: Lanny Poffo and George Wells teamed to win two squashes.

 

7/29/85: Lanny Poffo and George Wells got another squash win.

 

10/85: This time Lanny Poffo teamed with Tony Atlas to win a squash, plus Iron Mike Sharpe got a squash win!

 

11/85: Lanny Poffo teamed with Corporal Kirschner to win a squash, plus Tony Atlas won a squash teaming with Ivan Putski who wasn't getting any TV time at the Poughkeepsie tapings.

 

12/2/85: Junkyard Dog, who was headlining B shows and working semi main event spots on the A shows was teamed in a squash win with Dan Spivey whose minor push hadn't even really begun.

 

1/13/86: Bob Orton Jr. was still Roddy Piper's bodyguard, but he was on the losing side of a match against Tito Santana and Pedro Morales with Johnny K-9 as his partner.

 

6/16/86: Cousin Luke got a squash win even though the Hillbillies push was over with Uncle Elmer having gone back to Memphis and Hillbilly Jim not wrestling at the time.

 

7/7/86: Squash wins for the Moondogs, Brickhouse Brown, and King Tonga and Siva Afi who got a minor push as a team before Afi went back to jobbing and Tonga Kid came aboard.

 

7/28/86: A squash win for Cousin Luke. Bob Orton Jr. teamed with Hoss and JJ Funk for no apparent reason. Johnny Valiant worked a six man squash with the Dream Team. Iron Mike Sharpe got nine minutes against Tito Santana. Plus Owen Hart got a non televised try out match.

[Strummer]

read the comments on Scooter's blog under the WM 1 Main Event review with a bunch of people defending Benoit.

 

I know this happens a lot over there but this is the pinnacle

[Al]

read the comments on Scooter's blog under the WM 1 Main Event review with a bunch of people defending Benoit.

 

I know this happens a lot over there but this is the pinnacle

Given what I've seen of internet comment boards you could do far, far worse.

[Bix]

Why do people still think that the Daniel crossface thing is just a random internet rumor?

[rovert]

Why do people still think that the Daniel crossface thing is just a random internet rumor?

It was never really reported outside of the Observer for whatever reason was it?

[Bix]

It was reported in the Maxim story, which was basically a mainstream retelling of the most interesting WON stuff.

 

It's also in Irv's book, IIRC.

[Loss]

Probably because it seemed too unrealistic to be true, even though it was.

 

There are still people who think we don't know for sure that Benoit killed his family.

[jdw]

I don't think the WWF was quite as messy in 1984 as he thinks it was given the massive influx of talent and expansion into new towns (and increased push into towns like Los Angeles that they had broken into earlier to mixed results).

 

It's quite hard to look at the WWF on a "day-to-day" basis because feuds in that era tended to take place over different stretches:

 

Hogan-Savage

Spectrum: 09/28/86 (early test run)

MSG: 12/30/85, 01/27/86, 02/07/86

Boston: 05/24/86, 06/27/86

 

Hogan-Savage, which went around the horn in late 1985 and early 1986, didn't really even play in Philly. They got basically the "try out match" for the feud, then nothing happened. MSG got the major feud. Boston did as well, but ran through it in two matches, ending more than 4 months after it did in MSG.

 

Tito-Savage

Boston: 01/11/86, 02/08/86 (title change), 03/08/86

Spectrum: 03/07/86, 05/10/86, 05/31/86

MSG: 03/16/86, 04/22/86, 05/19/86, 06/14/86 (tag), 07/12/86 (cage tag)

 

All of the cities got the three singles match saga, but it ean two months earlier in Boston. In New York, they stretched it out into the cool tag finale with Adonis and Bruno involved, which in a sense gave Tito closure on a "hate" level by beating up Savage in the cage.

 

This really isn't a mess, but rather a pretty complex Booking Board that they must have had back in CT.

 

With Hogan in 1984-85, he didn't always need a major angle to launch a feud. They'd promo the crap out of stuff with the local promos. It was basically *Hogan* that was the draw, rather than either an intricate or ham handed angle. Still, I think if you look close you'll see him cycle through feuds or series of matches in cities, then have the next challenger pop up the next time he blew through town.

 

John

 

John

[KrisZ]

Well if you look at it, Hogan only had two big angles the first 2 1/2 years he was champ and that was Piper in 1985 and Orndorff in 1986 and that was actually smart because he defended it against every major heel across the board hence giving them the rub as world title challengers.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Well if you look at it, Hogan only had two big angles the first 2 1/2 years he was champ and that was Piper in 1985 and Orndorff in 1986 and that was actually smart because he defended it against every major heel across the board hence giving them the rub as world title challengers.

The Hogan/Muraco fued lasted a few months and was a big deal at least in MSG... and led into Hogan/ Bundy, which was a major angle. It wasn't as great as Hogan/ Orndorff but it still headlined Mania.

[Al]

That was one of the odd quirks about WWF at that time. They had angles in specific cities. A six month feud between Sammartino and Piper in the Boston Garden, for example. MSG had some great feuds but they didn't travel.

[KrisZ]

Hogan wasn't going around the horn with Bundy or Muraco though like he was with Piper & Orndorff.

[Bix]

I think Tamalie's other points are still pretty sound, especially the manager roulette, TV quirks (like Snuka on Piper's Pit not being shown for 2 months in every market other than St. Louis), and the new wrestlers with nothing to do.