Dave Meltzer stuff

[Johnny Sorrow]

Everyone thought the Ding Dongs stunk, not just hardcores. Shit, they burried them 79 feet underground on commentary during the one Clash they were on.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Even way back when he was an NXT "rookie", they jobbed him out constantly and had the fucking Miz as his coach which was almost entirely designed to be a "we'll show these fans he's not a real star" move.

Not at all, man. The point of him having Miz as his coach was intended to be something to piss fans off about. They played up that Bryan was a 14 year vet and they had the dude who's gimmick at the time was "undeserving entitled guy" mentoring him. It was supposed to be ridiculous and they completely played into it as it was pretty much the only storyline in NXT. They even eventually had Bryan beat Miz for the US belt in a culmination of the angle, eventually.

[Jimmy Redman]

It's not so much Miz that buried him on NXT, but the losing streak and Cole and co. constantly burying him on commentary to an absurd degree.

[tigerpride]

Even way back when he was an NXT "rookie", they jobbed him out constantly and had the fucking Miz as his coach which was almost entirely designed to be a "we'll show these fans he's not a real star" move.

Not at all, man. The point of him having Miz as his coach was intended to be something to piss fans off about. They played up that Bryan was a 14 year vet and they had the dude who's gimmick at the time was "undeserving entitled guy" mentoring him. It was supposed to be ridiculous and they completely played into it as it was pretty much the only storyline in NXT. They even eventually had Bryan beat Miz for the US belt in a culmination of the angle, eventually.

 

They had him lose every single match.

[Sean Liska]

If you just listened to Alvarez and read the Torch, you would have figured that WWE booked themselves into 2000 WCW-type business around a decade ago, and languished there since then like All Japan post-split. The constant negativity towards WWE since WM17 has never really stopped, it's numbing, people complaining about this not being the Attitude Era for 13 years now. And yet RAW this week did a hell of a number against football and the Rumble is already sold out and Mania will do a $10 million gate and probably big PPV business and they just sold out MSG for a house show.

[El-P]

Odd.

 

The dirt sheets were onto Stone Cold before Vince was. They got the potential of Rock quickly, and were onto him getting over with the NOD every bit as quickly as the Two Vince's.

 

They got the concept of the Outsider's Invasion even quicker than Eric, knowing it needed to be put over strong, but also needed to deliver on #3. In turn, they grasped the excesses of the nWo era long before Eric & Co. They grasped the errors Vince & Eric were making in running WCW into the ground.

 

They got the positives and shortcomings of Bret and Shawn on top, more so than Vince. They got the doomed failures of Vince pushing Lex, Sid and Nash far quicker than Vince.

 

While they liked ECW especially in the beginning, they talked realistically about the business side when ECW fanboys wouldn't, and wrote realistically about the booking and presentation issues when ECW fanboys wouldn't... and frankly when Heyman was lost in his own Kool-Aid himself.

 

They got the short term pop of the "injection" of the nWo into the WWF, but also saw long term it wasn't going anywhere... while Vince & Co actually had some hopes beyond Mania... hell, even put the belt on Hogan.

 

They got pushing Brock like a monster even before he got pushed like a monster. They got the impact on his push it would be when Eric gave a belt to Trip.

 

They were, if I recall correctly, rather positive on Batista's push and his potential to zoom up... and tended to be right on that, even if Batista's work wasn't something that turned them on.

 

Dave has spent more than half a decade supporting the push of Cena, even if Cena isn't his favorite worker. Why? Because it's a business, and Cena does business.

 

Shoemaker wants to see wrestling in post modern, post worked shootfabe terms. You want to see the sheets in terms of acting like sophisticated snobs who turn their nose up on pro wrestling. That's not really the case. Dave and Wade have covered it as an entertainment business for years, and generally don't ignore when something is over. They might not like Hogan, and lord knows you'll find a shitload of rips on him in the 80s and 90s sheets. But they also were extreme realistic about what got over, what was done well, what drew. We all may wax poetically about Jake crashing the Wedding and Macho getting bitten by the snake as one of the great angles of the era. But it bombed at the box office. Which they reported, covered and discussed. They may well have liked it, but they didn't ignore when it wasn't working.

 

Again, if someone wanted to do a 30 year study of the WON, I suspect you'd find Dave to have been right more often over those years than the bookers / promoters of the WWF, JCP/WCW, ECW, TNA, NJPW, AJPW. On a lot of things they would have seen eye to eye, and either been right or wrong. But on the differences... bookers and promoters in the past 30 years haven't been so hot. JCP died, and only survived due to Ted's money. WCW died. ECW died. The original version of TNA died, only saved by a money mark. The second and third versions of it died, only kept alive by the money marks. The Hogan version bombed out... and who knows what the fuck it is at this point, other than perhaps the owner's masturbatory project.

 

I could run this into the ground, and probably already have. We have a perfect example on the site here:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?showtopic=19237

 

For all one ever needs to know about a group of Bookers and Promoters across a two year stretch, with tremendous resources and talent and opportunities... and being a bunch of fuck ups.

 

John

This is a fantastic post. 100% spot on with every single point.

 

The same.

[jdw]

As someone who's had this conversation with Snowden before, I *think* he's talking about now the newsletter writers/readers were a bit too in the bag for JCP/WCW back in the day, which manifested in the WWF not being covered properly in the WON and other newsletters.

I think I covered the sheet writing of the WWF in the 80s in several of the posts. Despite that, Dave correctly covered the *business* side of both, which included the booking side. When JCP/WCW went to shit, he pointed it out. When their booking was shitty, he pointed it out. Flip on when the WWF did something good: he pointed it out.

 

John

[jdw]

Pro wrestling fans (what we would traditionally call "smarts") in general have more of an inferiority complex than any other fandom I can think of. Maybe comic book fans. I think almost every one kind of secretly wants wrestling to get big again because then they could talk about it with the general public again, even if it would only get big by appealing to a widestream audience at the cost of a lot of things that we prefer and that we get when they aim more at the hardcore crowd.

I think a lot of "smarts" never really gave a crap about wrestling being "mainstream". I think a fair number of posters on this board who've been around in online hardcore wrestling fan discussions for 10-15+ years, along with a lot of our comrades who've moved on from wrestling, spent a lot of time cracking on those who obsessed about Mainstream. With Meltzer having the biggest target on his back in that respect, since he couldn't stop mentioning it. We largely didn't give a shit.

 

And while I don't watch a ton of current stuff now, back when wrestling was at it's mainstream peak and people were obsessing about it, I watch a shitload. But I, and a fair number of posters on different boards, really just didn't care. We'd been wrestling fans when it was hot, when it was cold, when it was in between.

[Bix]

As someone who's had this conversation with Snowden before, I *think* he's talking about now the newsletter writers/readers were a bit too in the bag for JCP/WCW back in the day, which manifested in the WWF not being covered properly in the WON and other newsletters.

I think I covered the sheet writing of the WWF in the 80s in several of the posts. Despite that, Dave correctly covered the *business* side of both, which included the booking side. When JCP/WCW went to shit, he pointed it out. When their booking was shitty, he pointed it out. Flip on when the WWF did something good: he pointed it out.

 

Not just opinion-wise: In terms of how much space it got.

[Matt D]

Neither here nor there but I think reading through the WONs from the start of 84 to the issue where he says that he's quitting the Wrestling Observer as it was (APRIL 15, 1985) is pretty fascinating when it comes to how he sees WWF and his general optimism level.

[jdw]

Neither here nor there but I think reading through the WONs from the start of 84 to the issue where he says that he's quitting the Wrestling Observer as it was (APRIL 15, 1985) is pretty fascinating when it comes to how he sees WWF and his general optimism level.

Read through all two decades ago. Two telling things:

 

* he came right back into writing the WON almost instantly

 

* he spent a significant amount of time covering the WWE in 1984-85, more than any single promotion

 

I think if one looks at the 1986-89 WON's where he finally settled into the weekly format and coverage pattern that he largely still follows today with minor tweaks, the coverage of the WWF was significant.

 

Did he enjoy the quality of WWF work? Not a ton of it. But then again, not a lot of hardcores did... and that wasn't really the influence of Dave. They all preferred what they grew up on, and generally saw the WWF as weaker / less entertaining / less fun. There are some WWF backers, but they were a smaller, less vocal group of writer-fans in the Letters Section.

 

John

[jdw]

As someone who's had this conversation with Snowden before, I *think* he's talking about now the newsletter writers/readers were a bit too in the bag for JCP/WCW back in the day, which manifested in the WWF not being covered properly in the WON and other newsletters.

I think I covered the sheet writing of the WWF in the 80s in several of the posts. Despite that, Dave correctly covered the *business* side of both, which included the booking side. When JCP/WCW went to shit, he pointed it out. When their booking was shitty, he pointed it out. Flip on when the WWF did something good: he pointed it out.

 

Not just opinion-wise: In terms of how much space it got.

 

WWF got a ton of space in the 1984-89 period. I'd be hard pressed to figure out what got undercovered.

 

John

[Matt D]

Neither here nor there but I think reading through the WONs from the start of 84 to the issue where he says that he's quitting the Wrestling Observer as it was (APRIL 15, 1985) is pretty fascinating when it comes to how he sees WWF and his general optimism level.

Read through all two decades ago. Two telling things:

 

* he came right back into writing the WON almost instantly

 

* he spent a significant amount of time covering the WWE in 1984-85, more than any single promotion

 

I think if one looks at the 1986-89 WON's where he finally settled into the weekly format and coverage pattern that he largely still follows today with minor tweaks, the coverage of the WWF was significant.

 

Did he enjoy the quality of WWF work? Not a ton of it. But then again, not a lot of hardcores did... and that wasn't really the influence of Dave. They all preferred what they grew up on, and generally saw the WWF as weaker / less entertaining / less fun. There are some WWF backers, but they were a smaller, less vocal group of writer-fans in the Letters Section.

 

John

 

From reading the 84-87 ones, I was always way more frustrated with the AWA coverage while watching the set.

[evilclown]

Clearly Meltzer in particular has been right many times as John points out in copious detail. If that wasn't true, we wouldn't be talking about him in his very own thread. Of course, had I the time or inclination, I could make a similar list of faults and errors in judgement. However, I accept your point. I think Meltzer does a good job of writing about the business.

 

But I think that's a different area than what I'm talking about specifically, which is about their aesthetic judgements, not how they cover the business side. Meltzer and Bryan have a certain type of wrestling they like. But that vision of wrestling didn't win in the 1980s. The stuff he likes hasn't won. So when they complain about angles being bad or the promotion pushing the wrong wrestlers, you have to take it with a grain of salt. Because what he likes isn't always what fans are going to like.

[jdw]

The AWA had way more coverage than say JCP or Florida in 1984-85 in 8.5x14 format, much more than JCP or Memphis or pretty much anyone other in the US than the WWF and (when he lived there) Texas. Try comping it with Memphis.

 

From 1986, the AWA was increasingly a shell. Not much went on around the house show circuit that needed to be covered, he covered news out of the tv tapings, and he tracked the comings and goings.

 

He didn't write up the regular TV shows for any promotion like he does for Raw and SD (and Nitro & Thunder). That's stuff that's evolved in the WON over the years. He wasn't even consistent in covering the NJPW and AJPW TV until 1990. So lots of TV matches that we now think are cool never got mentioned in the WON, across all sorts of promotions. Heck, he wasn't even doing a ton of detail on UWF when it got nationally syndicated.

 

If you look at the big picture of coverage, where wrestling in the country got to by 1986, and that it wasn't even a fulltime job yet for Dave, it's pretty amazing that we got what we got (and that people now have it to look back at).

[JMFabianoRPL]

Does anyone have his list of inaccuracies from Hogan's autobio?

[Matt D]

It was usually the other guy writing it up and making Brody pictures though. Early on at least.

[jdw]

It was usually the other guy writing it up and making Brody pictures though. Early on at least.

And he didn't have a regular guy like that covering Memphis, Mid South, Florida, etc. :/

[Matt D]

Which is a shame since then we could have gotten a poorly drawn Nord instead.

[rovert]

I know things aren't as frosty towards Dave as they might of been 20 years ago but it was still nice to hear Steve Austin and John Cena perk up when they saw Dave on the audio the F4W site put up.

 

 

Bryan Alvarez (38) continues to be Benjamin Button

[Ditch]

Bryan Alvarez (38) continues to be Benjamin Button

I'm 32. When looking for home storage supplies for a sister in July, multiple people asked if it was for my college dorm.

 

I look older than him.

 

What.

[jdw]

It's been years since the younger pictures of Bryan were around, but he has gotten older. If you're on FB and have the picks he and his wife post pop up in your feed every so often, you get the sense that he doesn't look like the younger kid you once knew. He sure as heck has aged from the time of the King of Indies where he worked a match, and that was a dozen years ago. He looked early 20s then, and looks early 30s now. He's always looked 6 or so years younger than he was.

[cm funk]

On the age topic....Dave still looks really good and in really good shape for a guy in his mid 50's. I know he's always been a gym guy and he talks on the radio shows about doing cardio, riding bikes, running etc. I also assume, well know based on how he talks, that he's extremely conscious of how he eats.

 

He keeps up an insane work pace as well....in terms of how much he writes, watches, how much audio he does.....but I'm wondering how much of Dave at this pace do we have left? Will Dave still do all this work at 65? At some point he has to get burnt out, right?

 

One other random thought I had about Dave.....will he go to WMXXXI? It's on his home turf and there's been some public thawing of the ice with him and WWE recently (a few pictures of him on the website, and invited to the Network announcement). I know the main reason he doesn't go to WWE shows is that they won't give him a press pass....while UFC does.....would they comp him for WMXXXI? Would he go without a press pass? For whatever people think about Dana White re: media....he handles the media the way other sports do. UFC is not stingy about giving out press passes to people in the so called "MMA media". Vince will give a press pass to anyone in the "mainstream media" but the wrestling media? No way.

 

On that note.....I got reminded of why I dislike Wade Keller the other day. He mentioned on one of his blogtalk shows that he'd been invited to the WWE Network launch event a week before it happened. And he didn't go. What kind of self-respecting wrestling journalist wouldn't go to cover that? And then he does a 20 minute or so "recap" of it based on watching it on youtube.....and he butchers a ton of the facts while bragging about how "I've been on top of this story the whole time....PW Elite members....this is why you subscribe". He goes so far as to compare the WWE Network to PW Elite in terms of structure and content, while bragging about how he's been around since 1987. What a complete ass. Also, the audio on his podcasts is shit. Whatever beef people have with Alvarez, he strives to excellence when it comes to audio quality....Keller might as well be some kid podcasting in his bedroom. Some of his shows are downright unlistenable

[Zoo Enthusiast]

On that note.....I got reminded of why I dislike Wade Keller the other day. He mentioned on one of his blogtalk shows that he'd been invited to the WWE Network launch event a week before it happened. And he didn't go. What kind of self-respecting wrestling journalist wouldn't go to cover that? And then he does a 20 minute or so "recap" of it based on watching it on youtube.....and he butchers a ton of the facts while bragging about how "I've been on top of this story the whole time....PW Elite members....this is why you subscribe". He goes so far as to compare the WWE Network to PW Elite in terms of structure and content, while bragging about how he's been around since 1987. What a complete ass. Also, the audio on his podcasts is shit. Whatever beef people have with Alvarez, he strives to excellence when it comes to audio quality....Keller might as well be some kid podcasting in his bedroom. Some of his shows are downright unlistenable

I thought the same thing. He and Powell were both kvetching on that show about how they were invited on such short notice... Even though everyone knew about the announcement for at least a month.

 

The fact is, no one was really all that "on top" of this deal, aside from Dave having some hints but nothing concrete. Or if you choose to believe WrestleZone actually had the facts.

 

I wonder if Wade or Dave think the fact that the Network is cheaper than their services will have an impact on them at all.

[Bix]

On that note.....I got reminded of why I dislike Wade Keller the other day. He mentioned on one of his blogtalk shows that he'd been invited to the WWE Network launch event a week before it happened. And he didn't go. What kind of self-respecting wrestling journalist wouldn't go to cover that? And then he does a 20 minute or so "recap" of it based on watching it on youtube.....and he butchers a ton of the facts while bragging about how "I've been on top of this story the whole time....PW Elite members....this is why you subscribe". He goes so far as to compare the WWE Network to PW Elite in terms of structure and content, while bragging about how he's been around since 1987. What a complete ass. Also, the audio on his podcasts is shit. Whatever beef people have with Alvarez, he strives to excellence when it comes to audio quality....Keller might as well be some kid podcasting in his bedroom. Some of his shows are downright unlistenable

I thought the same thing. He and Powell were both kvetching on that show about how they were invited on such short notice... Even though everyone knew about the announcement for at least a month.

 

The fact is, no one was really all that "on top" of this deal, aside from Dave having some hints but nothing concrete. Or if you choose to believe WrestleZone actually had the facts.

 

I wonder if Wade or Dave think the fact that the Network is cheaper than their services will have an impact on them at all.

 

Wrestlezone DID actually have all the facts. I'm not sure what you're saying, it's not like they didn't show their hand.