Dave Meltzer stuff

[jdw]

I hate to say it but I have to side with Bryan in this 30 minute debate on Danielson's push. For "not defending the company's position", Meltzer sure is passionate in his arguments behind why Bryan isn't enough of a draw to be pushed harder and until he moves #s they have no reason to treat him differently. This debate is quite the piece of audio though.

Dave discussing the numbers like they exist in a vacuum is kind of amazing. The numbers are the last chapter in a long book. The real story is found in everything that came first. Is Danielson not moving merchandise and ratings, despite being the crowd favorite? It might be worth exploring WHY that's the case. That it is the case is really just skimming the surface on the issue.

 

Triple H didn't initially move ratings and merch. He bombed. So bad that they took the belt off him and put it on Show in a panic move.

 

Pair Trip with Vince & Steph in a storyline, then Steph & Mick in a storyline, then Rock and the whole McMahon Clan in a storyline... and suddenly Trip "moves numbers" and is a main event star for a decade. Not to mention getting to Bang The Boss' Daughter.

 

Bryan is over. Reasonably strong. A smart company's job is figuring out how to get him over even stronger where he is part of the mix that does move the numbers.

 

I mean... did Cena draw big the instant he showed up? When he was first pushed? How many in the WWE actually have?

 

John

[sek69]

Did you get the feeling that if they were in the same room, Dave and Bryan totally would have come to blows last night?

 

I thought Dave was on the verge of being willfully ignorant by continuing to tow the WWE line even after the #2 show of the year just got roundly shit on by a city that can't be hand-waved away with the "it's a smark town" excuse.

[Dooley]

Triple H didn't initially move ratings and merch. He bombed. So bad that they took the belt off him and put it on Show in a panic move.

I've seen this said a couple of times now, but was it really a "panic move"? Austin was supposed to be in the Survivor Series '99 main event until the neck injury (even advertised the day of the show) and Show was a last-minute replacement. Many seemed to think Austin was walking out of the show with the belt, they may have shifted gears and decided to try Show instead but HHH seemed to be fated to lose that night.

[S.L.L.]

I can understand WWE's position (they've invested seven figures into Batista's return and on the first night he drew a big rating, so under normal circumstances you don't change course, especially when it would mess up your WrestleMania plans), but clearly they scored a major own goal last night.

It's easy for Batista to move numbers when he hasn't been around week to week (or at all, really) in many years. What will the numbers with Batista look like after he's been around 4-5 weeks? I understand that once Batista's return drew a huge number that it meant that WWE was going to lock into their Wrestlemania plans, Daniel Bryan be damned, but using that as their primary reason to continue Batista's push without a larger sample size just shows confirmation bias on their end.

 

One thing that crossed my mind - after the things crossing my mind stopped being incoherent screaming - was that with WWE being so reliant on big name stars from the past drawing their biggest shows because they go out of their way not to maximize the value of anyone on their regular roster, what happens when the "past" that they draw big name stars from catches up with the "it's the brand, not the wrestlers, so let's not make stars" era that seemed to start in...oh, shit, 2005, when Batista was first established as a main eventer. I know Cena is the guy I always point to when I talk about this, but let's not forget that Batista was right there with him, and was no less of a victim of the booking apathy that has come to characterize WWE ever since. Yeah, he's been off TV for a long time, and when he was on TV, he was a guy who moved the needle more than the vast majority of his peers on this era...but he's still of this era. He's still a contemporary of the guys the WWE didn't want to make the most out of because capitalizing on a wrestler's popularity is so 1998.

 

And now he's the big star of the good old days they want to prop up Mania.

 

I can't until Bryan wins the Rumble in 2021 so he can remind the fans of how much better wrestling was in 2013. This is sad.

[Steven]

Triple H didn't initially move ratings and merch. He bombed. So bad that they took the belt off him and put it on Show in a panic move.

I've seen this said a couple of times now, but was it really a "panic move"? Austin was supposed to be in the Survivor Series '99 main event until the neck injury (even advertised the day of the show) and Show was a last-minute replacement. Many seemed to think Austin was walking out of the show with the belt, they may have shifted gears and decided to try Show instead but HHH seemed to be fated to lose that night.

 

It's just nonsense. It's a panic move if you ignore that Triple H went into a feud with Vince right after and main evented the PPV after Survivor Series while Big Show had a three minute match with Big Bossman in the midcard. Show also dropped the title about a month later back to Triple H.

[Bix]

Did you get the feeling that if they were in the same room, Dave and Bryan totally would have come to blows last night?

 

I thought Dave was on the verge of being willfully ignorant by continuing to tow the WWE line even after the #2 show of the year just got roundly shit on by a city that can't be hand-waved away with the "it's a smark town" excuse.

 

Dave hand-waved it as the Rumble crowd being heavy on travelers.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

So how big is the thought process of "The brand being in the star and not so much the performers?" among the WWE? We often hear this talking point and myself I'm not sure on what level it's exactly at so if anyone wants to speculate on that some, go ahead.

 

It leads me to thinking again about how everything is too restricted, too planned out and too conservative. In some ways, the wrestling these days is less constrictive as there's stuff the wrestlers are doing that they wouldn't be doing years ago but even that "letting go" feels and is constrictive to me. Like a planned "letting go". Staying too close to the script when at times it hurts the wrestler in and out of the ring certainly makes everything about the brand as that's in control and not the wrestler/superstar. The wrestler is not growing on his own. I say that's part of the reason Daniel Bryan is so over is because he feels out of the box some -- making his own path/doing his own thing -- but you can look at some scenarios he's been in where everything is too restrictive and it hurts what he can do with the audience.

[sek69]

Did you get the feeling that if they were in the same room, Dave and Bryan totally would have come to blows last night?

 

I thought Dave was on the verge of being willfully ignorant by continuing to tow the WWE line even after the #2 show of the year just got roundly shit on by a city that can't be hand-waved away with the "it's a smark town" excuse.

 

Dave hand-waved it as the Rumble crowd being heavy on travelers.

 

 

The funny thing is the most traveled people there were probably from West Virginia. People were doing yes chants in line to enter the building and all the way up the escalators, and at no point did I think that there was an abundance of out of town folks (Pittsburgh folks can spot our own, it would be very noticeable if there were a lot of travelers).

[jdw]

Triple H didn't initially move ratings and merch. He bombed. So bad that they took the belt off him and put it on Show in a panic move.

I've seen this said a couple of times now, but was it really a "panic move"? Austin was supposed to be in the Survivor Series '99 main event until the neck injury (even advertised the day of the show) and Show was a last-minute replacement. Many seemed to think Austin was walking out of the show with the belt, they may have shifted gears and decided to try Show instead but HHH seemed to be fated to lose that night.

 

It's just nonsense. It's a panic move if you ignore that Triple H went into a feud with Vince right after and main evented the PPV after Survivor Series while Big Show had a three minute match with Big Bossman in the midcard. Show also dropped the title about a month later back to Triple H.

 

It was a panic move, and covered as such at a time, when folks like Dave had vastly more high placed WWF sources (such as Ross) completely dialed into why they did things.

[WrestlingPower]

I think the brand being more of the star has sort of been in the back of people's minds for years but has only really been referenced more in the past 5 or so years as no new stars are being created. I think people are using that talking point as possibly more important moving forward into the "era of the Network" where buy rate numbers & such will become less important to the bottom line. Only WWE itself will have access to metrics such as merch figures, live streaming, delayed streaming hits, etc. so if they really wanted to they could theoretically pay everyone the same if the seasonal highs & lows of the revenue streams get flattened out across the year.

[Steven]

Triple H didn't initially move ratings and merch. He bombed. So bad that they took the belt off him and put it on Show in a panic move.

I've seen this said a couple of times now, but was it really a "panic move"? Austin was supposed to be in the Survivor Series '99 main event until the neck injury (even advertised the day of the show) and Show was a last-minute replacement. Many seemed to think Austin was walking out of the show with the belt, they may have shifted gears and decided to try Show instead but HHH seemed to be fated to lose that night.

 

It's just nonsense. It's a panic move if you ignore that Triple H went into a feud with Vince right after and main evented the PPV after Survivor Series while Big Show had a three minute match with Big Bossman in the midcard. Show also dropped the title about a month later back to Triple H.

 

It was a panic move, and covered as such at a time, when folks like Dave had vastly more high placed WWF sources (such as Ross) completely dialed into why they did things.

 

I don't give two shits about what Dave says. Ratings for RAW in 1999 were stable through the year, Triple H continued to be at the top of the card while Big Show was in the mid card feuding with the Bossman, he main evented the December PPV and was embroiled in a feud with the company owner before and after SS, the marriage to Stephanie was two weeks after he dropped the title. And why would a heel be expected to move merchandise?

 

Think it through for once instead of parroting what those around you say.

[Dooley]

Triple H didn't initially move ratings and merch. He bombed. So bad that they took the belt off him and put it on Show in a panic move.

I've seen this said a couple of times now, but was it really a "panic move"? Austin was supposed to be in the Survivor Series '99 main event until the neck injury (even advertised the day of the show) and Show was a last-minute replacement. Many seemed to think Austin was walking out of the show with the belt, they may have shifted gears and decided to try Show instead but HHH seemed to be fated to lose that night.

 

It's just nonsense. It's a panic move if you ignore that Triple H went into a feud with Vince right after and main evented the PPV after Survivor Series while Big Show had a three minute match with Big Bossman in the midcard. Show also dropped the title about a month later back to Triple H.

 

It was a panic move, and covered as such at a time, when folks like Dave had vastly more high placed WWF sources (such as Ross) completely dialed into why they did things.

 

But if they had planned on going back to Austin anyway (who was still the most over guy in the company), why would that be considered a panic move? It seemed just to be seeing if they had anything with Show on top instead and finding out they didn't. Also, as has been noted, HHH's push didn't seem to subside any after the loss. You'd think if you were panicking about HHH, you'd scale him back a bit.

[jdw]

I don't give two shits about what Dave says.

Okay. We'll ignore someone who, in 1999, was dialed into the WWF's decision making process.

 

 

Ratings for RAW in 1999 were stable through the year,

They actually took a rather sharp drop for 3 of the 4 Raw's between No Mercy (where fans expected/hoped for Austin winning it back) and Survivor Series. Hard to blame MNF entirely for it, since it started back up on 9/13, which lined up with Raw coming back from the "US Open Pre-Emps"), and was doing a pretty consistent 6.0-ish rating before dropping down to 5.5 level leading into Survivors.

 

That's what caused a panic.

 

Triple H continued to be at the top of the card while Big Show was in the mid card feuding with the Bossman,

?

 

Main Events - I'm going by taping date rather than air date, along with the house shows between No Mercy and Survivors.

 

11/15 Raw: Bossman vs Rock (#1 contenders match)

11/16 SD: The Rock vs Bossman

 

11/20 Toronto: Rock vs Bossman (on last) / Big Show vs Triple H

11/21 Montreal: Rock vs Trip (on last) / Big Show vs Big Bossman

 

11/22 Raw: Triple H vs Acolyte

11/23 SD: Triple H & X-Pac vs Test & Shane McMahon

 

11/26 San Jose: The Rock vs Triple H (on last) / Big Show vs Bossman

11/27 San Francisco: Rock vs Bossman (on last) / Big Show vs Triple H

11/27 Sacramento: Show vs Bossman (on last) / Rock vs Triple H

 

11/29 Raw: X-Pac & NAO vs Rock & Kane & Mankind + of course the Wedding)

11/30 SD: Big Show & Hardyz vs X-Pac & NAO

 

12/04 MSG: Rock & Mankind vs NAO (on last) / Big Show vs Triple H

12/05 Albany: Show vs Bossman (cage) (middle of show)

12/05 Hartford: The Rock vs Triple H (middle of show)

-- note: split crews for the two shows

 

12/06 Raw: Rock & Mankind vs Al Snow & Chris Jericho

12/07 SD: Kane vs Triple H

 

Rock is the "main event", as everyone knew at the time. Whoever he faced tended to be in the main event, be it Bossman, Trip or the NAO. It's kind of funny to see Trip vs Show in the same mid-card spot as Show vs Bossman. It's basically how the WWF worked in those days: double main event, split them apart a bit on the card.

 

 

he main evented the December PPV

Do you honestly think the WWF was going to put Vince anywhere else? The other amazing thing happened: it was a "hot" program that helped get Trip over. Which was kinda sorta exactly my point:

 

Triple H didn't initially move ratings and merch. He bombed. So bad that they took the belt off him and put it on Show in a panic move.

 

Pair Trip with Vince & Steph in a storyline, then Steph & Mick in a storyline, then Rock and the whole McMahon Clan in a storyline... and suddenly Trip "moves numbers" and is a main event star for a decade. Not to mention getting to Bang The Boss' Daughter.

Pair him with Vince & Steph, and he got over. Pair him with Steph & Mick, and he got to another level. Pair him with Rock and the Entire McMahon Clan heading into and out of Mania, and he got over to another level.

 

Prior to that?

 

He was bombing.

 

 

and was embroiled in a feud with the company owner before and after SS,

The feud in its original form ran it's course, and ratings were declining after Austin failed to get the title.

 

 

the marriage to Stephanie was two weeks after he dropped the title.

The "kidnapping" happened before he dropped the title. It drew shitty ratings. But they had a plan, it involved Vince & Steph, and do you really think an egofuck of that level was going to get called off?

 

 

And why would a heel be expected to move merchandise?

That was a joke.

 

 

Think it through for once instead of parroting what those around you say.

Actually thought it through back when it happened.

 

John

[Childs]

People on both sides of the argument seem to have forgotten that most of the stars in the post-Hogan era emerged gradually. They compact history so it sounds as if Austin was Austin the minute he cut the 3:16 promo on Jake. But if you watch the Raws from '96 and '97, it was much more gradual than that. Even after the Mania match with Bret, he had to wait another year to be the undisputed man.

 

Dave talks bout Jeff Hardy popping numbers, but that was after almost a decade of being a very popular mid-carder

 

They had to push Cena hard for two years before he owned his current spot.

 

I don't say any of that to excuse the dumb shit the company has done to undercut Bryan. If I'm a WWE exec, I'm looking in the mirror now and saying, if this guy generates that kind of reaction and we can't make money off it, maybe we're the problem.

 

But I do think both those who are angry at WWE and those who pick at Bryan for not drawing need to have a little perspective. These things have rarely happened quickly.

[jdw]

Even if they can turn Bryan being over into popping 1 good PPV buyrate (or now getting 100K additional people to buy the Network), it's worth it to the WWE. He's on the roster. They're already paying him. He's "over" to a degree.

 

I'm far from the biggest Bryan mark, and tend to be amused by how much people lost their shit over him getting "screwed over" similar to people last year getting all pissed off when Punk lost at the Rumble after being given the longest WWF Title reign since Hogan 1 ended in 1988. So I've got nothing invested in enjoying his work or his character.

 

Just that... if he's over to this degree, it's the WWE's job to get him over to where he does help move the needle.

 

There's also something of a false notion that the company can only have 1 or 2 folks who do that. At the peak of the company, Austin moved things... Rock moved things... Foley moved things... Vince moved things. They eventually got to a point where Trip & Steph were strong in 2000. Given how many they cranked out in a short period of time, they've been rather poor about it since.

 

John

[kjh]

I agree with John that WWE in the summer and fall of 1999 were throwing a lot of shit at the wall to get Triple H over as a main event heel, because he just wasn't clicking at the level they wanted. That's why they reformed DX in late October before he married Steph. They didn't stick with him because he was a success, but because they had no better alternatives. Well, there was Chris Jericho, but he still had the taint of WCW on him, was several inches shorter and tens of pounds less muscle, and was being sabotaged at every step by Hunter and pals.

[Dooley]

I wholeheartedly agree and have said repeatedly that HHH wasn't clicking the way they wanted him to in '99. I just don't see how taking the belt off him at SS is a "panic move". Especially if a healthy Austin may have got the belt anyway if not for an injury.

 

To me, a panic move is more like WM13 where they decided to go with Taker-Sid in the main at (almost) the last minute after almost a months-long logical build to Bret-Shawn 2.

[jdw]

Vince made a lot of panic moves. Bret-Shawn --> Taker-Sid + Shawn's Smile Bye-Bye is certainly one of them. Giving the belt to Bret the first time was a panic move. Signing Bret to the big contract was a panic move. Fake Diesel & Fake Razor was one. We probably could come up with a dozen or two.

[Timbo Slice]

John, you're talking more about "passing the torch". Actually doing stuff to get the other guy over because you think it's good business. All those guys you talked about helped Trips get over because they thought their rub would help business and make him a top guy. Which it did to an extent.

 

The main reason people are perceiving this as different is because outside of Cena, nobody else really wants to put Bryan over on a big-time singles match to end a show. Much like Trips got his rub from Vince, Steph, Rock and Mick, they thought by giving Bryan a "rub" by pairing him with Orton, Trips and HBK was the right move. Problem was that he was never put over.

 

That's more the issue here. Bryan actually has to go over. And now that Batista is there, a 7 figure investment with incentives, there's little room for Bryan to get over, especially with someone like Batista coming back and being thrown right into the supposed show-ending match on the biggest show of the year. So this is another holding pattern that Bryan got stuck with, might like the bridge from Cena to Orton, which they wanted before Cena got hurt.

[cm funk]

I totally agreed with Alvarez on the discussion of Bryan. He's absolutely right that crowds are going to keep hijacking shows until Bryan gets the title. It's monkey see monkey do now, it's become a lot more than just wanting to see Bryan with the title. I don't even know how well Bryan with the belt would draw, but WWE audiences will not stop doing this.

 

It's a credit to Bryan, and I think it's a credit to WWE also. And I refuse to believe that they are clueless to what is happening here. They've been trolling their audience hard, and it just makes Bryan more and more over

[jdw]

John, you're talking more about "passing the torch". Actually doing stuff to get the other guy over because you think it's good business. All those guys you talked about helped Trips get over because they thought their rub would help business and make him a top guy. Which it did to an extent.

Rock worked with Trip because he was booked to. He really didn't give a shit one way or another. It's one of the reasons he kept his sanity during his original run with the company.

 

Mick worked with Trip because he was booked to. It was a big money feud that fed Mick's ego as well as wallet. He really didn't give a shit about helping Trip get over, regardless of what he might have written and said over the years. He's certainly proud of the fact that he helped get over someone who hadn't been very over to that level the year before... to the degree that he tends to forget the Vince part just prior to him, and focus on he & Rock getting him over.

 

Steph? She was fucking him. Regardless of how they spin the myth now. It was also her big chance to get over in a big storyline. Do we really think she was doing it nobly for the good of the company?

 

Vince? A total egofuck. The folks who came up with the idea knew it. Getting Vince into an angle was a great way to get the thumbs up for it. It was also the period where he loved to "wrestle" and take more of an ass kicking then most to prove he was a tough guy.

 

So... no, those four weren't doing it to put over Trip and for the good of the company. Some not giving a shit, some money in the pocket, and a whole lot of egofucking.

 

 

The main reason people are perceiving this as different is because outside of Cena, nobody else really wants to put Bryan over on a big-time singles match to end a show. Much like Trips got his rub from Vince, Steph, Rock and Mick, they thought by giving Bryan a "rub" by pairing him with Orton, Trips and HBK was the right move. Problem was that he was never put over.

People not getting put over is one of the long running stories of the Trip Era. We've all run it into the ground... to the point that it was a cliche/meme between us a decade ago. :/ That doesn't mean it's not true, but it's par for the course.

 

 

John

[thebrainfollower]

I'd like to think it's a generational issue but really I think it's more Hunter than anything else. I can't think of anyone so insecure that they need to be the smartest, strongest, toughest person in an entertainment field for 15 years.

 

Are there any stage, television or film actors it's this bad? I can't think of anyone with a run that long.

[Lee Casebolt]

I'd like to think it's a generational issue but really I think it's more Hunter than anything else. I can't think of anyone so insecure that they need to be the smartest, strongest, toughest person in an entertainment field for 15 years.

 

Are there any stage, television or film actors it's this bad? I can't think of anyone with a run that long.

Steven Seagal's goes back to 1988. He did the job in Executive Decision, but other than that...

[cm funk]

My recollection of 99 is that they were determined to get HHH over as a main eventer. It didn't click initially, but they were doing everything in their power to push him to that level. They just threw everything at the wall with him hoping it would stick. It definitely felt like they were forcing the issue and wouldn't take no for an answer, and HHH was already over via DX and his feud with Rock and everything, but there was nothing organic about his push in 99. They decided they wanted to push him to the main event and spent all year doing so, way beyond his actual overness level. Vince went out of his way to push HHH, booked HHH to drug and rape his daughter, booked his daughter to turn heel on him, wrestled a PPV main event with Hunter.....booked Hunter to beat Cactus into retirement....put HHH over in the main event of WM....the first time a heel ever closed the show with a win.....

 

It's kind of ridiculous in retrospect

[thebrainfollower]

Was there anyone prior to HHH pushed down the fan's throats as a main eventer they didn't want to see in that role to that extent? Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Bret, Shawn, Taker, Austin, Rock all seemed to have natural fan bases that supported their guy. Diesel as well.

 

I guess Luger maybe, but Vince gave up on that after eight months. It makes me wonder when Hunter really started dating Stephanie because his push just seemed all out of proportion and always has.

 

Unless Vince just legit sees Hunter as what he wanted to be. That might make sense. They both seem to have the same insecurities.