Dave Meltzer stuff

[rovert]

This goofy motherfucker thinks a bone sticking out of someone's arm might be a work? Hang it up, Dave.

It was a joke...

[Ditch]

Meanwhile, Meltzer is out of touch with current smark opinions:

 

I also like how he no sells Sakuraba getting 20% of the vote!

Yeah the 'Takada as all-time great worker' line of thought has not done very well over the last few years, and it was a very problematic case to begin with. But Saku is even more baffling unless those are shoot-only fans voting for him.

[Al]

Even if you do consider Takada a great worker (I haven't seen him enough to give a personal opinion), it's a single choice poll with Jumbo Tsuruta in it. That kind of poll would be more interesting if you could ask readers to RATE the choices 1-8.

[jdw]

The Norweigan Food rant is one of the best ever. What would be really interesting is to know who planted the McDonalds vs Some Other Food analogy in Dave's head which he in turn thought was outstanding, lifted it and made it his own. That's not exactly something Dave comes up with out of thin air, and instead has a kernal planted (and sometimes a whole plant) in his head, waiting to come to bloom in the greatness of a spot like that. Wow.

 

FWIW, I tend to think the old "The WWF would have gone out business without New Japan money because they were losing money hand over fist in 1984" is the newsletter equiv of Vince's "I took wrestling out of smoke filled arenas" meme. The further we get away from it, they less I believe things were ever that bad, not that the New Japan money was of an amount that Vince couldn't easily have raised through other means if needed.

 

John

[Ditch]

FWIW, I tend to think the old "The WWF would have gone out business without New Japan money because they were losing money hand over fist in 1984" is the newsletter equiv of Vince's "I took wrestling out of smoke filled arenas" meme. The further we get away from it, they less I believe things were ever that bad, not that the New Japan money was of an amount that Vince couldn't easily have raised through other means if needed.

NJ bailed out Vince?

[jdw]

Didn't bail him out. The WWF had a talent sharing deal with New Japan, with New Japan paying the WWF for the talent sent over. The money in 1984 and 1985 was enough to save the WWF from going under... so the old saw goes.

 

There also is the version that Vince was leveraged up to his neck for Wrestlemania I, and if it failed the company would have died.

 

John

[tomk]

Dave's Norwegian food analogy may possibly be more hilarious than the WNBA talking point:

I don't know.

The Norwegian food analogy is a horrible analogy because it takes a simple concept and instead of making it clearer makes it more complicated. I mean the point he's trying to make would make a lot more sense without the kooky analogy.

 

The WNBA comparison is bad cause it is just wrong.

 

The Norwegian food analogy disaster distracts from the last two paragraphs on fiction being traditionally more popular than reality. Those are probably the most interesting paragraphs as to where Dave's head is at. I don't know if anyone has attendance figures for Globetrotters games. But I wouldn't be surprised if the 09-10 Nets (real loosing team) did better average attendance than the fake winning team.

 

Reading those final two paragraphs I was reminded of the old thread where the argument was made that since Lance Storm had a similar look to Mirko Cro Cop, that the WWE should have been able to promote Lance as well as Pride promoted Cro Cop.

[Phil Schneider]

So I read the current issue and I am 85% sure the DGUSA PPV report was written by Alverez not Meltzer. The comments are almost word for word Alverez's audio comments on the show. Dave didn't credit Bryan, and I wonder how much of the newsletter is ghostwritten at this point.

[KrisZ]

You can tell what Dave writes himself because he has his own style and way of making comments that is his own. That DG report isn't in that style so either Chico did it or someone like Todd Martin did

[Cox]

Dave did credit Alvarez for the Dragon Gate PPV report in this week's Observer.

[Phil Schneider]

Where was the credit? I looked for one and didn't see it

[Cox]

Right before the PPV rundown:

 

"Rundown of the iPPV show from Fall River, MA, from Bryan Alvarez:"

[kjh]

Heard from Dana. He said Lesnar vs. Mir is the match that makes the most sense right now. Only problem is he doesn't know when Lesnar is willing to fight again, so until he knows, no point in worrying about an opponent.

I'm amused that Dave Meltzer actually thought Dana White was serious when he said that he was *maybe* rethinking the Lesnar vs. Mir rematch and clearly felt the need to send an emergency text to him.

[jdw]

Why would Dana be rethinking Brock-Mir. I suspect that the reason Dana thinks that Mir is the right opponent is because:

 

* Brock can beat Mir to rehab himself

 

* Mir rehabbed himself by beating the now-useless Cro Cop

 

* Brock can beat Mir to rehab himself

 

* Might as well cash in on Mir a bit before he loses to someone else

 

* Brock can beat Mir to rehab himself

 

* Mir can talk trash enough to draw marks to buy the PPV

 

* Brock can beat Mir to rehab himself

 

John

[kjh]

Dana White claimed in an interview he was reconsidering booking the match because people (i.e. MMA smarks) were complaining about it on Twitter when he first floated the idea. Of course, this comes from the promoter that told everyone for a couple of weeks that Chuck Liddell vs. Tito Ortiz was still on for Vancouver when Sherdog leaked the news early that it was off the books and that Anderson Silva was going to be a curtain jerker after the Abu Dhabi debacle.

[cm funk]

"I usually don't gauge things by the Internet; the internet is [expletive] stupid," White said. "My Twitter I do.

 

"On my Twitter, there are 1.2 million people that care about this thing and everything else, and you don't get the goofy [expletive] that you get on the Internet."

I find it highly amusing that Dana White makes a distinction between "The Internet" and "My Twitter"

[Johnny Sorrow]

OK, Meltzer and Alverez seem to think that they only brought back Ross to announce that match so Vince could feed Cole lines to try and bury Ross, but "it backfired".

 

Really? That's the last thing I thought of. They did mention that it seemed Lawler was legit telling Cole to shut the fuck up, as Lawler was obviously getting annoyed with Cole's schtick. I picked up on that, too.

 

And Dave confirms the old Tony Atlas, "Am I shiny, enough?" story! I knew I didn't imagine that.

 

Dave not seeing the forrest for the trees re; Mae Young is so odd. Alverez calling Danial's kick a "Cro Cop High Kick" is really annoying.

 

It's really something how they both didn't seem to pay much attention to this show and didn't dig it, considering it was one of the best and most fun RAW's in years.

[kjh]

The latest installment of Dave Meltzer vs. Josh Gross on the Observer boards is equal parts amusing and fascinating. Here's Dave's posts in a thread about Gross leaving Sports Illustrated for ESPN (bolded are the parts that are most amusing to me):

 

I really like Josh personally, a lot, and he's actually one of the best reporters on MMA, but articles like this tell me he doesn't understand business.

 

The idea of a network paying for a television event of fighting and putting it on Saturday afternoon live and doing an 0.4 rating makes no economic sense for anyone invovled. If people want to see the card, they'll watch it a few hours later. If they don't, they won't. But if it airs in the afternoon, the vast majority of viewers aren't watching it.

 

They already have the market research on PPV. Almost all of their buys on the U.K. PPVs come for the tape delay Saturday night shows. Very few watch the live afternoon shows, and if anything, the PPV fans willing to pay $44.95 for the product are the ones most likely to want to watch live. The whole deal about popularizing the sport is the communal aspect, getting together with friends.

 

And the idea that the Internet is what grew the UFC is ridiculous. They lost $44 million waiting for the Internet to grow the UFC and exploded with all those fans from that industry they hold their nose at that watched another hour on Spike in 2005.

Every UFC PPV airs live in the U.S. I've never watched a UFC on tape delay except for the overseas Spike shows. They stopped advertising the afternoon shows because nobody bought them. They still do them because it's a courtesy to their hardcore fans who will watch at Noon but knowing the people they advertise to are going to watch at 10/7.

 

I'm going to get so much shit for this, but at Strikeforce, my favorite people to hang out with are the banned from UFC reporters, including Josh Gross.

 

And he is really smart and generally a good reporter. If it was anyone else writing silly things about business I really wouldn't care. But I just don't sense from that column, after all those years, he understands business.

 

There is a very obvious reason why last Saturday's show was on tape delay. More people will watch in prime time than live. It's good for UFC. Good for Spike. And good for the vast majority of the audience that finds the time more convenient. One of the biggest non-Super Bowl sporting events of the last 20 years, which was the 1994 women's figure skating finals, aired on tape delay and did some ridiculous rating. Does that mean it was a secondary sport? No, it's because they believed that rather than air it live and get a so-so rating, they could put it in prime time and draw a record rating. And the results were all over the TV news and radio all day before it aired. And I don't think the network cried about spoilers ruining the show.

 

That's the game. TV wants to draw the most viewers. Real news is reported when it happens. These people in MMA that cry about it don't even get the real world.

 

This is the truth. A very significant part of the MMA media and people who post on the web sites are the equivalent of people who think Bryan Danielson vs. William Regal should main event next week's PPV. As a fan, me, I'd rather buy a show where they get 25 minutes than watching Wade Barrett go 25 minutes. But I know that as a business, Hulk Hogan and Brock Lesnar are the people you build around, not Bryan Danielson and Frankie Edgar. I get it's a business, everything is because it's pro sports, and don't cry about that fact or say it's wrong. Honest to God, I could care less about seeing Lesnar vs. Mir again past the promos, but I hate when people who don't get business try and screw up the best thing for growth of the business by not getting the big picture. It doesn't make it pro wrestling or bad or fake, and it's wonderful than boxing right now has a guy who is small and super awesome who actually draws better on top than the heavyweights. But for most of boxing's history, they've built themselves around contrived personalities and protected their money people from those who will ruin the illusion. That's just how it is. And UFC in that realm is far more honest than the boxing I grew up with which was a mainstream sport and covered by everyone as real.

Re bolded parts: what Dave isn't allowed to fraternize with the enemy? And does anyone really think that Lesnar vs. Mir III will grow the business long term? Sure, it's the right money match to make at this point in time to keep business ticking over, but outside of drawing the biggest buyrate for a non title fight in UFC history and rehabbing Lesnar for another title shot it will mean little long term for the sport's popularity, unless Mir and Lesnar built the rubber match up for three months by being the trainers for the next season of The Ultimate Fighter reality show, which isn't going to happen unless Lesnar has a change of heart.

 

When he complains about UFC airing in prime time, he doesn't know business. Either that or he's pandering to people who don't to get on their good side, which to me would be worse.

 

And if he doesn't know business, he shouldn't be writing at that level or be taken as an authority. And believe me, I really like the guy and hang out with him and think he is one of the few MMA reporters who should be on Jim Rome and the like. But if he's at that level, he should get it, particularly in a business where one company after another has gone down, not because of promoting bad fights, but because they didn't have a business that could make a profit.

 

On the Hogan thing, I was talking about 80s Hogan, who I never really was into seeing wrestle, but he was clearly the right guy to be in the main events and carry the title at the time.

I agree that Gross is a very good reporter overall. But there is a difference between accurately covering an established sport and a fledgling sport, where business is far more important, particularly one where companies drop every year and if you're covering the sport, you have to learn from that. And the fact is, I constantly heard reporters talking this year when it came to the World Series about the ratings and how it wasn't good for baseball to have the Giants and Rangers in as compared to the Yankees or Red Sox and I don't even follow baseball.

 

And for a baseball writers analogy. Tell me when one of the top baseball writers complained about the World Series not being a legitimate championship because the Japanese Central League powerhouse team was not invited to play, they won't let them play, and they don't allow the best international teams to play ever against the major league teams. And when ranking who the best baseball team is in 2010, you rank teams in the Japanese league, sometimes No. 1, or teams in the CFL where they play under different rules against NFL teams. Was it better for the sport of football for the NFL to open up its playoffs to XFL teams?

 

Nobody does that. I don't know of one of those top baseball writers you talk about who say things like that on national shows. Maybe some do, since I don't follow baseball anymore, but I sure don't see it. They accept that teams in the major leagues play in the World Series and the NFL teams play in the Super Bowl even though the sport is played elsewhere, don't complain about the big bad commissioner that doesn't let it happen and is ruining the credibility of the sport by doing so.

 

I really want out of this argument right now, but Gross, being one of the best people covering this industry, shouldn't get a pass by saying it's how other sportswriters cover their sports. It's not and they don't. Granted, I don't cover it like sportswriters would either, but I at least accept it for what it is and try to figure what is best for the health of the companies, the sport's future and the marketplace.

 

And if the public itself badly wanted interpromotional matches based on people getting equal TV exposure to UFC, and it's right for business, I'm not going to be opposed to them. But it's sure not the case now, and White sure shouldn't have made bad business deals with M-1 to get Fedor for the credibility of the sport. And he did blame White on Inside MMA for that very thing.

 

Aside from that, I'd defend Gross as a reporter and respect him. But I can't argue with what Coughlin wrote, even though it's against someone I consider a friend. And that's why I get disappointed when I read stuff like that from someone at his level, who should understand that aspect of the business better.

I was just reading today a lengthy article about the fact that game three of the World Series started at 6:57 instead of 7:57 and how they figured it cost the game 0.4 ratings points and what a huge mistake it was.

 

It noted how both the league and FOX were mad.

But what if that writer constantly talks about business?

 

Putting fights on live in the afternoon is not an analytical breakdown of matches.

 

Saying that Dana White needed for the good of the sport to sign Fedor is not an analytic breakdown of matches either.

I must admit I also got a kick out of the UFC employee who masquerades as a common fan questioning Gross' legitimacy and saying that he has an agenda that he is trying to push onto people.

[Bix]

Having not seen the article, did Gross say that the European shows on Spike should only air live or that they should air live and on tape delay like they do on PPV? I don't see a problem with the latter option.

[kjh]

Five observations from UFC 122

 

5. Enough with the tape-delay. With Zuffa pushing UFC to become the first global pay-per-view brand, you better get used to the idea of tape-delayed fights. At least that's how it feels after the second recorded UFC broadcast to the U.S. in less than a month.

 

While Canadian and British audiences enjoyed access to UFC 122 live on television, American fight fans were stuck watching choppy online streams or maniacally avoiding results in hopes that when they viewed it later on Spike TV the allusion of Live From Oberhausen, Germany, still existed. Spike TV says its audience doesn't mind the delay since Saturday nights are preferred amongst the UFC fans that tune in. I guess that fine for a network interested in selling advertising in prime time and casual viewers who may not care. Yet for an organization as nimble and global as the UFC, it's slightly embarrassing. And for diehard fans, it simply stinks.

 

My hope is this is a speed bump and not a trend, and I think in the end that's what it will turn out to be. UFC president Dana White talks about the Web as if it's the eventual home of UFC pay-per-views, so much so that if he's wrong he says he and his company are "screwed." Sounds like a gamble for a guy who fancies wagering tens of thousands of dollars on blackjack. What's Zuffa betting on? That web-based content is the future. That the promotion can survive and thrive without a broadcast or cable television partner. That it can find a way around sharing money with the nutty pay-per-view industry.

 

Why work in conjunction with a network or carrier when your brand is pervasive enough, your technology is capable enough, your intent is strong enough to strike out on your own? That question has to have been bandied about at Zuffa's Las Vegas offices, if for no other reason than the quality of people working there would think of this stuff. Plus it makes sense.

 

When White talks about a UFC-dedicated channel, as he did in interviews last month, he very well could be referring to Web-housed content. Mixed martial arts, after all, survived online at a time when people like me would have given anything to watch free tape-delayed MMA on TV. Now it's something to bitch about. In part, the sport reached this point because of its close link to the Internet and the explosion of social media like Facebook and Twitter, where White has 1.2 million followers. Unlike boxing, which is woven into the fabric of traditional sports media, MMA was and is empowered by a strong, activated online community. Traditional media is attempting to play catchup.

 

Zuffa has regarded the Web as necessary to its success since it's earliest days. Five years ago, for instance, they offered to put me in charge of content for UFC.com. I was thankful for the offer -- it would have delivered a $28,000 a year raise from what I was making at the time with Sherdog.com -- but it just wasn't for me, particularly since three weeks earlier the UFC decided to deny access to most of the sport's dedicated press, the vast majority of which operated online. In the end it was the correct call for everyone, especially White who lucked out with my former colleague Tom Gerbasi.

 

But back to the point on tape delay: You know what would really drive people to the UFC site? Free, live fights on a Saturday afternoon. If Spike TV is unwilling to carry these foreign cards as they happen -- there's no reason they couldn't when Canada's Rogers Sportsnet can -- UFC should adapt and find a willing live content partner. Or better yet, make it happen on their own.

Yeah, as you rightly point out Bix, Gross didn't say they shouldn't air repeats in the normal time slot.

[sek69]

OK, Meltzer and Alverez seem to think that they only brought back Ross to announce that match so Vince could feed Cole lines to try and bury Ross, but "it backfired".

 

Really? That's the last thing I thought of. They did mention that it seemed Lawler was legit telling Cole to shut the fuck up, as Lawler was obviously getting annoyed with Cole's schtick. I picked up on that, too.

 

And Dave confirms the old Tony Atlas, "Am I shiny, enough?" story! I knew I didn't imagine that.

 

Dave not seeing the forrest for the trees re; Mae Young is so odd. Alverez calling Danial's kick a "Cro Cop High Kick" is really annoying.

 

It's really something how they both didn't seem to pay much attention to this show and didn't dig it, considering it was one of the best and most fun RAW's in years.

 

Lawler telling Cole to have a glass of shut the hell up on what was supposed to be a PG show sure seemed like an unscripted moment. He's wanted JR back pretty much since he was taken off TV and didn't want any part of Cole's schtick messing up their reunion. Actually I thought JR's no-selling of Cole's attempts to derail him made the whole thing way better.

[MikeCampbell]

I started loling when Lawler told Cole that he could write his life story on a piece of confetti.

[Guest Slickster]

Perhaps I'm missing something here.

 

Wasn't the point of the Cole/JR segment to further Michael Cole's heel turn?

I enjoyed it because it came off to me like a totally scripted segment designed to "justify" Cole's heel turn.

(Cole can claim he got upset that the WWE Universe has never supported him even when he was made to be 'the voice of WWE.' Then, Jerry Lawler goes behind his back to get Jim Ross back - effectively a vote of no-confidence.)

[jdw]

Dave can be highly critical of Josh Gross, but people who are critical of Dave are [fill in the blank].

 

FWIW, when people wonder if some of us value Dave's work, it's useful to remember that we still pay for it. We don't pay for the work of the guys infront of the curtain at ESPN or Yahoo or our local papers that we read online. How many here have ever bothered to pay money to Scherer? It's not like Dave has been discounting the WON over the years. But we still do value it enough to drop a dime on it.

 

One can like and value something even while they are critical of certain items within it. I always thought Bill James had his head halfway up his ass on Pete Rose & Betting. But the shelves at home are full of his books, and I sub to his site.

 

John

[Bix]

Since he didn't address the idea of a repeat at all, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and guess that he meant that a live airing should be added to the tape delay, as opposed to replacing it. It's not like Spike has any major programming on Saturday afternoons. Same idea that people had with the Olympics in January: Air live events online and/or on the NBC cable channels with the Dick Ebersol Dramatic Reality TV version staying in prime time since that's when most people want to/will be able to see the coverage.

 

If he means that it should be the only broadcast, then Dave is right, albeit still ridiculously misguided about Gross for covering MMA from a regular sportswriter's point of view.