Dave Meltzer stuff

[Matt D]

Michaels never had a year as good as Casas' 2014, let alone the 90s.

[Sean Liska]

To be fair Dave was more arguing for Kobashi and Flair over Michaels. But Negro phoning it in during the entire 90s? This would be a bigger scandal than the "Jumbo was lazy" allegations if there were more lucha fans around.

[Jetlag]

Jesus christ it's just one man and his opinions. By "phoning in it" he probably meant not doing enough apron moves or some shit.

[Sean Liska]

Jesus christ it's just one man and his opinions. By "phoning in it" he probably meant not doing enough apron moves or some shit.

I'm just joking around about him hurting my feelings and the scandal and stuff. But when the most respected voice in the wrestling media says Negro Casas phoned it in during the entire 90s, to big lucha fans, I mean, it's crazy. Again it's like saying Flair phoned in the 80s or something, it's so out there, certainly worth mentioning in a Dave Meltzer thread.

[NintendoLogic]

According to Dave, "everyone said" Casas was phoning it in in the 90s. Dave has a history of placing a great deal of weight on contemporaneous consensus opinion and relatively little on how well someone's work holds up decades after the fact. And for all we know, Casas was in fact phoning it in on all the shows Dave attended.

[Matt D]

In truth, I'm not actually sure Casas had a better 2014 than anything in Michaels' career but you could at least have that argument I think.

[Loss]

Dave didn't criticize his 2014. He criticized his 90s.

[Hawkeye12]

The Mummy wasn't Corny's doing. The financial backer of SMW wanted a mummy because he fan a fan of the old wrestling mummy when he was a kid. It turned into a vehicule for James Mitchell to say the most obscene stuff on a southern TV, so it was fine with me. The whole dust flying off was great too. A wrestling mummy is always great. Even when it's called a Yetay.

 

The Yeti was a mummy because rumors/legends/myths circulate of several mummified Yeti remains being kept. Had El Gigante actually gotten the role as planned, he would eventually have removed the bandages to reveal a white version of his Giant Gonzalez outfit.

[SPS]

 

The Mummy wasn't Corny's doing. The financial backer of SMW wanted a mummy because he fan a fan of the old wrestling mummy when he was a kid. It turned into a vehicule for James Mitchell to say the most obscene stuff on a southern TV, so it was fine with me. The whole dust flying off was great too. A wrestling mummy is always great. Even when it's called a Yetay.

 

The Yeti was a mummy because rumors/legends/myths circulate of several mummified Yeti remains being kept. Had El Gigante actually gotten the role as planned, he would eventually have removed the bandages to reveal a white version of his Giant Gonzalez outfit.

 

Never heard of this(although it sounds cool). Where did you hear this information?

[Hawkeye12]

 

 

The Mummy wasn't Corny's doing. The financial backer of SMW wanted a mummy because he fan a fan of the old wrestling mummy when he was a kid. It turned into a vehicule for James Mitchell to say the most obscene stuff on a southern TV, so it was fine with me. The whole dust flying off was great too. A wrestling mummy is always great. Even when it's called a Yetay.

 

The Yeti was a mummy because rumors/legends/myths circulate of several mummified Yeti remains being kept. Had El Gigante actually gotten the role as planned, he would eventually have removed the bandages to reveal a white version of his Giant Gonzalez outfit.

 

Never heard of this(although it sounds cool). Where did you hear this information?

 

 

I heard the mummified Yeti stuff on some wrestling board so read up on some of it, and suddenly the Yeti as a mummy made much more sense. I'm guessing with Sullivan being such a history buff probably did it intentionally, but never heard him actually say it or be asked. They even did DNA test a couple years ago on one in Bhutan to determine if it was related to the polar bear. So it's kind of fascinating stuff. The El Gigante part came from Ron Reis IIRC, who was supposed to be a Giant Ninja (which he was in the WW3 battle royal and a couple TV matches, although was still called the Yeti despite the ninja moves). El Gigante was in poor health and unable to get to the US. He actually only had one match left a month later in a giants tag team tournament in WAR, where he was basically helped to the ring, held on to the top rope, and was clipped on the apron so he never had to stand on his own or tag in. So it was easy to see why he would never have been able to perform in WCW.

[El-P]

According to Dave, "everyone said" Casas was phoning it in in the 90s. Dave has a history of placing a great deal of weight on contemporaneous consensus opinion and relatively little on how well someone's work holds up decades after the fact. And for all we know, Casas was in fact phoning it in on all the shows Dave attended.

 

Well, Casas certainly was phoning it in hard when he worked Japan in the 90's. His stuff against Liger is the most dull Liger stuff of the decade and Motegi had better J-Cup/J Crown matches than Casas. (not saying it's relevant to his Mexico stuff, but there's some phoning it in performances from Casas on super famous shows)

[cad]

Well, that could just mean he sucked in Japan. With how much he idolized Choshu, I doubt he went over there and halfassed it.

 

I remember that in his actual Observers from the nineties Meltzer would frequently write things like "Negro Casas, who is already said to be the best worker in the history of Mexico..." from when Casas was as young as his early thirties. I seem to remember him being particularly impressed with Casas' performance at this show (and if the attendance details are correct then the entire crowd went home happy that night). It's been a while, though, so I might not be remembering right. From most 1980s footage of Casas that's made its way online, he looks like he did start emphasizing his character much more in the nineties, and maybe the sheet community interpreted that as Casas putting in less work.

 

Besides Kdawg (who never worked in the same major promotion as Casas) who are Meltzer's Mexican sources? I think Steve Sims still liked his nineties work.

[Matt D]

From most 1980s footage of Casas that's made its way online, he looks like he did start emphasizing his character much more in the nineties, and maybe the sheet community interpreted that as Casas putting in less work.

 

Opinions are opinions, but 1.) That's probably true. It syncs up with pretty much all of the 90s WON comments on lucha and a whole bunch of other things and 2.).. what a shitshow that this guy was and is the driving force on pro wrestling commentary forever and always. What a terrible, empty, way to gauge good pro wrestling.

[Sean Liska]

Wasn't Dave at that show in San Jose that had Onita and Santo against Casas and some FMW guys in a match that was strangely awesome with Casas bumping his ass off while the FMW guys brawled around the building?

[alexoblivion]

Besides Kdawg (who never worked in the same major promotion as Casas) who are Meltzer's Mexican sources? I think Steve Sims still liked his nineties work.

I wonder if Bob Barnett was ever a source for Dave. One name I've been curious about is Jesse Elliot Money. I know he was sending in results, but was he also someone whose opinion Dave would have trusted? Digging through old RSPW posts, his name is pretty synonymous with lucha.

[Hawkeye12]

Wasn't Dave at that show in San Jose that had Onita and Santo against Casas and some FMW guys in a match that was strangely awesome with Casas bumping his ass off while the FMW guys brawled around the building?

 

It was probably the Los Angeles show, they worked in the next night in Mexico. Onita, Santo and Tarzan Goto vs. Casas, Horace Boulder, and Tim Patterson.

[sek69]

 

 

 

The Mummy wasn't Corny's doing. The financial backer of SMW wanted a mummy because he fan a fan of the old wrestling mummy when he was a kid. It turned into a vehicule for James Mitchell to say the most obscene stuff on a southern TV, so it was fine with me. The whole dust flying off was great too. A wrestling mummy is always great. Even when it's called a Yetay.

 

The Yeti was a mummy because rumors/legends/myths circulate of several mummified Yeti remains being kept. Had El Gigante actually gotten the role as planned, he would eventually have removed the bandages to reveal a white version of his Giant Gonzalez outfit.

 

Never heard of this(although it sounds cool). Where did you hear this information?

 

 

I heard the mummified Yeti stuff on some wrestling board so read up on some of it, and suddenly the Yeti as a mummy made much more sense. I'm guessing with Sullivan being such a history buff probably did it intentionally, but never heard him actually say it or be asked. They even did DNA test a couple years ago on one in Bhutan to determine if it was related to the polar bear. So it's kind of fascinating stuff. The El Gigante part came from Ron Reis IIRC, who was supposed to be a Giant Ninja (which he was in the WW3 battle royal and a couple TV matches, although was still called the Yeti despite the ninja moves). El Gigante was in poor health and unable to get to the US. He actually only had one match left a month later in a giants tag team tournament in WAR, where he was basically helped to the ring, held on to the top rope, and was clipped on the apron so he never had to stand on his own or tag in. So it was easy to see why he would never have been able to perform in WCW.

 

 

 

Makes you wonder why they just didn't do the angle anyway with Reis, it's not like having a legit 7'2 guy doing it would have killed the gimmick,

[Microstatistics]

Well, that could just mean he sucked in Japan. With how much he idolized Choshu, I doubt he went over there and halfassed it.

 

I remember that in his actual Observers from the nineties Meltzer would frequently write things like "Negro Casas, who is already said to be the best worker in the history of Mexico..." from when Casas was as young as his early thirties. I seem to remember him being particularly impressed with Casas' performance at this show (and if the attendance details are correct then the entire crowd went home happy that night). It's been a while, though, so I might not be remembering right. From most 1980s footage of Casas that's made its way online, he looks like he did start emphasizing his character much more in the nineties, and maybe the sheet community interpreted that as Casas putting in less work.

 

Besides Kdawg (who never worked in the same major promotion as Casas) who are Meltzer's Mexican sources? I think Steve Sims still liked his nineties work.

 

This might be true but I have a feeling the simpler explanation is that Meltzer (and his contemporaries) have just not seen much of 90s CMLL Negro Casas and might be basing the assessment on a few Japanese matches.

[Strummer]

Dave seems to have made a complete transformation back to his mid/late 80s snarky persona on twitter. Yes he's played that up for quite awhile but now he's in complete "1985 make fun of Junkfood Dog" territory. And him discussing NJPW the other day on WOR and saying how terrible WWE wrestling was when compared to it was something right out of the 80s as well. Even Bryan seemed a little thrown by it there

[Sean Liska]

I mean he probably thinks something like Strong-Roode couldn't touch Okada-Cody. I'm glad it's 2017 and there are other people to point me towards good wrestling.

[cad]

 

Well, that could just mean he sucked in Japan. With how much he idolized Choshu, I doubt he went over there and halfassed it.

 

I remember that in his actual Observers from the nineties Meltzer would frequently write things like "Negro Casas, who is already said to be the best worker in the history of Mexico..." from when Casas was as young as his early thirties. I seem to remember him being particularly impressed with Casas' performance at this show (and if the attendance details are correct then the entire crowd went home happy that night). It's been a while, though, so I might not be remembering right. From most 1980s footage of Casas that's made its way online, he looks like he did start emphasizing his character much more in the nineties, and maybe the sheet community interpreted that as Casas putting in less work.

 

Besides Kdawg (who never worked in the same major promotion as Casas) who are Meltzer's Mexican sources? I think Steve Sims still liked his nineties work.

 

This might be true but I have a feeling the simpler explanation is that Meltzer (and his contemporaries) have just not seen much of 90s CMLL Negro Casas and might be basing the assessment on a few Japanese matches.

 

Yeah, I was just spitballing there. Casas still had a high workrate in the nineties, so it's not like he turned into Sangre Chicana or anything. He probably wasn't the physical phenom he was in the decade prior, just because now the measuring stick was guys like Misterio and Psicosis.

 

If I had to guess the most likely explanation would be Meltzer remembering how dull the CMLL was for a large part of the decade and lumping Casas in with all that, plus I imagine at the time Konnan was always explaining to him that the promotion and its wrestlers were stuck in the past. It's just weird because I don't ever remember him being negative about Casas in his newsletters from the time he's now talking about.

[Loss]

I think Dave tried to make an All Japan-New Japan narrative with AAA and CMLL in the 90s, meaning that in the same way he thought the All Japan crew rested on their laurels and failed to adapt or modernize while New Japan trailblazed in the early 80s, I think he sees CMLL workers from 1992-1995 the same way. So they are all going to take a hit. And remember that generally speaking, this is a guy who thinks any change in wrestling style that gets a pop is good change. Wrestling that gets over in the building is good, period, end of story. He's said that before.

[El-P]

And him discussing NJPW the other day on WOR and saying how terrible WWE wrestling was when compared to it was something right out of the 80s as well.

 

He didn't say WWE wrestling was terrible. I know people around here love that narrative of Evil Meltz Hates WWE, but he very regularly pimps WWE matches as great.

 

As much as I don't care at all about Meltz's tastes for finisher kick out spamming orgies (which also happens in WWE, mind you, as it's the staple for the company's big match self-conscious epics), people being all boo-boo because he loves NJ never ceases to be funny to me. Or, actually, pretty sad actually. Get over it already. Who the fuck care ? People and their need to be validated has gotten even worse it seems these days. Maybe because of the social network shit and the culture of "likes"...

[goc]

Wrestling that gets over in the building is good, period, end of story. He's said that before.

Why did he hate Junkyard Dog so much then?

[Loss]

This seems to be a new line of thinking in the last decade or so. I think current Dave would give credit to JYD and Hogan.