Dave Meltzer stuff

[Johnny Sorrow]

I love Dave's defense for being a twat on Twitter. It's basically " I'm just acting like everyone else here and responding to the assholes like an asshole." How about just not responding to assholes? 

[rovert]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Sorrow said:

I love Dave's defense for being a twat on Twitter. It's basically " I'm just acting like everyone else here and responding to the assholes like an asshole." How about just not responding to assholes? 

He mutes those give him a hard time and legit questions but rushes to answer and quote tweet Bischoff/Russo truthers with 5 followers.

Several attempts have been made on his own forum to have a Q&A thread with more knowledgeable fans - his subscribers and he rapidly loses interest each and every time.

[Strummer]

I think Dave was trying to say that in many ways WWE hasn't changed in regards to female talent.  Things have improved tremendously the past three years but there are still signs of WWE being stuck in a certain mold.  The two champions right now that are getting rocket pushes in part because they are conventionally attractive.  Yes they have the mic skills but also have the look Vince is fond of.  And other than Charlotte/Ronda all the other women seemingly have to fight and claw for consistent air time.  Is it a coincidence that the IIconics got called up only after they got implants?  Two years ago at the start of the split Lana was set for a big push.  She had just happened to get bigger implants at the time.  And as many here have pointed out what is the point of the female talent being pancaked with makeup despite if it fits their character or not?  Why do they keep mentioning Nia's beauty when it has nothing to do with her character?

 

so yes WWE should be applauded for the improvement but the work is far from done

 

[Herodes]

Some of my best friends are women’s wrestlers

[Loss]

It's not just women that get pushes based on looks. They have their ideal woman just as much as they have their ideal man. The real difference is that there are more roles for men to fill, so the men who don't fit that ideal can still have successful runs even if they aren't particularly favored. But the obsession with physical appearance is not limited to women, nor, honestly, is it limited to wrestling promoters. Fans care about it more than they should too, at least if the idea is that opportunities in pro wrestling should be solely based on merit and talent.

The same mixed messages are there for men -- drug testing them and banning substances with one hand while not pushing certain guys, regardless of their crowd connection, because they're too short or whatever with the other hand.

[Mad Dog]

2 hours ago, Charles (Loss) said:

It's not just women that get pushes based on looks. They have their ideal woman just as much as they have their ideal man. The real difference is that there are more roles for men to fill, so the men who don't fit that ideal can still have successful runs even if they aren't particularly favored. But the obsession with physical appearance is not limited to women, nor, honestly, is it limited to wrestling promoters. Fans care about it more than they should too, at least if the idea is that opportunities in pro wrestling should be solely based on merit and talent.

The same mixed messages are there for men -- drug testing them and banning substances with one hand while not pushing certain guys, regardless of their crowd connection, because they're too short or whatever with the other hand.

I think with the men, there also isn't as big a gulf in talent levels. So yeah, you might hit the ceiling because you have the wrong look but the guy picked over you is probably still of a similar talent level. That wasn't always true but there seems to be a minimum ability level now. But with the women, there is a world of difference between Asuka and Carmella. Asuka is an elite level talent and Carmella you can argue shouldn't even be wrestling. So it's much more visible.

It's also getting called out more because of all the back patting that has been going on the last couple of years.

[Grimmas]

On 8/9/2018 at 9:56 PM, sek69 said:

I mean,  you might not like how he words it but Dave isn't wrong. Just because we've come a long way from pudding fights and bra & panty matches doesn't mean the current main roster women's matches are great. Some of if for sure is booking, but there's no doubt if any of the men had a match like 75% of what the women do it would get buried 100 feet below the ground. 

They do give pushes to Alexa and Carmella for obvious Vince related reasons, Nia gets a push part because of her family and part as a token PR move so they can say "see, we push big girls too!" Women who can actually wrestle are an afterthought far behind who the company feels is attractive, and there's a pretty narrow focus on how they define that. As was mentioned in another thread, Charlotte might as well be renamed Ramona Reigns at this point for how hard she's pushed as the star of the women on Smackdown despite others arguably more deserving of the spot at this point. 

Women's matches absolutely get graded on a curve, and to an extent that's fair seeing as how embarrassingly bad  women's wrestling was in WWE for so long it wouldn't be right to expect it to turn on a dime. There comes a time, and again it can be argued we're at that time, where if you really want equality you have to be honest about what you're seeing.

Again, a lot of this falls on the company too.  Clearly no one on the main roster spends the time with the women that they do in NXT. Other than the completely green newbies, you seldom see a terrible women's match there. On the main roster, there's often clunkiness apparent in every match. Even more so if it's opponents that never had matches together in NXT. One of the reasons the Women's Rumble stood out is they pulled everyone off the road practiced, so that everyone had a chance to get familiar. Obviously they can't do that for every show, but there must be a midpoint between nonstop practice and just throwing them out on Raw to flail. 

Other companies don't seem to have an issue with this. I don't watch joshi, but the Impact women have consistently better matches and it's not like you can say their roster is better than WWE's. Even the ROH women seem to have more effort put into their matches than most in WWE. Everyone went over the moon praising Fit Finlay when he helped the women improve back in the day, there's no reason they can't have someone in a similar role now. 

Ridiculous. The women in the WWE is the only reason I keep watching. They have been the best part of almost every show this year. To say people grade it on the curve is to say they aren't actually really good, when Sasha and company are better than the men or atleast most of them.

[Sean Liska]

I would argue Roman's push is more undeservedly based on looks than Alexa's. Alexa can deliver a line and emote.

[Sean Liska]

I'll add on because I feel there's some dangerous criticism being leveled against WWE and Alexa/Carmella. We have a 35-year history of being able to see what Vince McMahon likes in people he pushes. Yes, looks are a part of it, whether it's tall jacked up guys or conventionally attractive women.

*But* lets be fair here. It has almost never been about in-ring with Vince. It's about your ability to project your character and your ability to cut a promo, or in modern times, deliver scripted lines in a convincing fashion. Kevin Owens has had a main roster run that has wildly surpassed what anyone would have predicted 5 years ago and it's not because of his look. And I don't think it's because of his in-ring either! It's because he can deliver those lines and carry long TV segments.  That's a huge asset. That's why CM Punk was the #2 guy in the company for a few years, not because of his look or beautiful top rope elbow. It's why Jericho has been successful for almost 20 years there. It's why they chose Cena over Batista in 05. There are just countless examples of this.

Point being - Alexa Bliss in a lot of ways is the female Kevin Owens! Not in looks or work, although I think her work is underrated, but she commands the screen and delivers their lines well. Of course Vince loves Alexa more than a Bayley who just can't deliver lines in the same way. Charlotte got a big run because she could do promo segments and she'll continue to be a featured star for them. They're trying to make progress on handling non-English speakers like Asuka and Nakamura and Almas, but its still difficult for the way they write TV and feuds. It's easier when the champ is someone who can go out in front of 8,000 people and cut a promo for five minutes and keep everyone engaged. Now, if Mandy Rose turns out to be a terrible promo and they still give her a big push, then its a looks thing. But again that's not necessarily a sexist thing when you look at them trying to have Reigns deliver Cena lines and failing miserably.

[NintendoLogic]

2 hours ago, Grimmas said:

Ridiculous. The women in the WWE is the only reason I keep watching. They have been the best part of almost every show this year. To say people grade it on the curve is to say they aren't actually really good, when Sasha and company are better than the men or atleast most of them.

I'd say this is at least as much a reflection of how terrible the men have been this year.

[Fando]

2 hours ago, Grimmas said:

Ridiculous. The women in the WWE is the only reason I keep watching. They have been the best part of almost every show this year. To say people grade it on the curve is to say they aren't actually really good, when Sasha and company are better than the men or atleast most of them.

I'm old enough to remember the ridiculous praise the Sasha-Charlotte HIAC botchfest with no heat got on this forum.

[sek69]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

I'd say this is at least as much a reflection of how terrible the men have been this year.

 

For as much shit as I give Roman, I've never watched one of his matches afraid that he was going to kill himself every time. Can't say that for Sasha.

[Ricky Jackson]

1 hour ago, Fando said:

I'm old enough to remember the ridiculous praise the Sasha-Charlotte HIAC botchfest with no heat got on this forum.

Most overrated match of the 21st century 

[Kadaveri]

30 minutes ago, sek69 said:

 

For as much shit as I give Roman, I've never watched one of his matches afraid that he was going to kill himself every time. Can't say that for Sasha.

which really is a form of grading on a curve as Sasha is one of the most injury-free members of the roster, hasn't missed a month since June 2013. The abuse Roman took in his matches with Brock or that Sheamus TLC match are way worse than anything any woman in WWE has done.

[Loss]

I think the best women are on the same level as the best men, but the best women aren't the ones that are placed in top spots. Becky Lynch gets over everything she touches and is used as enhancement talent. Sasha Banks gets consistent reactions despite how she's used and it's clear they have no plans of ever building around her.  Naomi is consistently good and is really marketable. I think there's a good place for Carmella as a heat magnet, for Alexa as a gossipy heel, and for Nia Jax as someone who defies labels, even if they aren't the best all-around performers there. But I also think it's important to getting over the women as equals -- something still in progress -- that in title matches, they deliver at the same level as the men more than they don't. The talent is there to pull that off, but they are positioned in a counterproductive way.

[Grimmas]

5 hours ago, Fando said:

I'm old enough to remember the ridiculous praise the Sasha-Charlotte HIAC botchfest with no heat got on this forum.

Since that match is a amazing, I disagree.

 

 

[Robert S]

On 8/10/2018 at 3:56 AM, sek69 said:

Again, a lot of this falls on the company too.  Clearly no one on the main roster spends the time with the women that they do in NXT. Other than the completely green newbies, you seldom see a terrible women's match there. On the main roster, there's often clunkiness apparent in every match. Even more so if it's opponents that never had matches together in NXT. One of the reasons the Women's Rumble stood out is they pulled everyone off the road practiced, so that everyone had a chance to get familiar. Obviously they can't do that for every show, but there must be a midpoint between nonstop practice and just throwing them out on Raw to flail.

It's a big difference if you have to produce 1 h or (taped!) TV per week and do little touring or if you are producing 8 (or how many) h of TV per week, 3/4 of that live, and be on tour 4 days a week or so. They will never get the same time to produce a match on the main roster as they do in NXT. The only thing they can do against that is being more careful in who to call-up. If they don't do that they will have to live with stuff like Bailey stumbling around blowing stuff left and right or Ember Moon reacting with the deer-in-the-headlight look once things don't go as planned.

[sek69]

Then you would think that means NXT isn't doing a very good job at development if the people they train aren't prepared for what being on the main roster entails.

[Robert S]

To some degree yes, you could also phrase it differently that their format and booking is great in hiding weaknesses of wrestlers even from people responsible for the call-ups. But yes, the way NXT (and to a lesser degree previous development programs) is working, wrestlers with not so much pre-WWE experience will have certain holes in their game when being called up.

[GSR]

I've muted Big Dave on Twitter for the time being.  The constant replying and quoting of the Russo trolls has become insufferable these past couple of days.  God knows why he continues to repeat himself and reply to these people I'll never know.

[Coffey]

On 8/11/2018 at 9:02 AM, Charles (Loss) said:

It's not just women that get pushes based on looks. They have their ideal woman just as much as they have their ideal man. The real difference is that there are more roles for men to fill, so the men who don't fit that ideal can still have successful runs even if they aren't particularly favored. But the obsession with physical appearance is not limited to women, nor, honestly, is it limited to wrestling promoters. Fans care about it more than they should too, at least if the idea is that opportunities in pro wrestling should be solely based on merit and talent.

The same mixed messages are there for men -- drug testing them and banning substances with one hand while not pushing certain guys, regardless of their crowd connection, because they're too short or whatever with the other hand.

Some of my favorite wrestlers from yesteryear are guys that I question if they would even be given a shot in today's WWE. Earthquake, One Man Gang, King Kong Bundy - guys like that.

They might have some wrestlers like Kevin Owens or Bray Wyatt on the roster but they're pretty far away from a One Man Gang. And Kevin Owens has taken A LOT of flak for how he looks.

Wrestling is admittedly a very visually physical medium. And I think it's more fun when there's a large diversity in the roster. Height, weight, sex, ethnicity, etc.

[Coffey]

On 8/11/2018 at 11:56 AM, Grimmas said:

To say people grade it on the curve is to say they aren't actually really good

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly where I'm at.

[Fando]

From today's WOR, on the G1:

"My favorite match, my personal favorite match, which is not even close to the highest rated match that I have, but my favorite match was the Okada and Tanahashi match on Friday. I just thought that that was wonderful...perfect pacing, great story, I never worried about anyone for one second, all I kept thinking is these guys are so freakin great, they're at a different level of...anyone...you can count on one hand the number of people that are on the level of these guys."

[Loss]

2 hours ago, Coffey said:

Some of my favorite wrestlers from yesteryear are guys that I question if they would even be given a shot in today's WWE. Earthquake, One Man Gang, King Kong Bundy - guys like that.

They might have some wrestlers like Kevin Owens or Bray Wyatt on the roster but they're pretty far away from a One Man Gang. And Kevin Owens has taken A LOT of flak for how he looks.

Wrestling is admittedly a very visually physical medium. And I think it's more fun when there's a large diversity in the roster. Height, weight, sex, ethnicity, etc.

I agree that variety is the key. Look matters in the sense that looking different or distinct matters, but the focus on being conventionally attractive is misplaced. Of course you want and need some people who are, but not everyone has to be or needs to be. That works in reverse too. Daniel Bryan can get over, but five other undersized great workers who come along probably won't because Bryan had an intangible first of all, but also, he got over as something different in what was at the time a pretty sterile environment. I think Strowman benefitted from being pushed as a monster at a time when there really aren't monsters as well.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Did Dave actually write/ say that the ROH show sold out MSG faster than WrestleMania 1 did? Cause that's fucking hilarious. It's like a tag line from a critic on a movie poster that once examined, makes no sense. Yes, I'm sure it did sell out faster. Those internet speeds in 1984 were slow as fuck.