Dave Meltzer stuff

[kjh]

Why can't TNA institute rigorous drug testing with similar punishments to WWE? Why can't TNA hold their performers accountable for their actions? Why isn't Dave banging that drum harder? I know drug testing would cost the company a significant amount of money to implement, but think of all the worthless things they've pissed money away on over the years. Just because there's "no solution" to Kurt's out of control runaway train, doesn't mean you shouldn't try and do everything in your power to put the brakes on. Wringing your hands and saying "well, it's TNA, what do you expect?" doesn't cut the mustard.

[Tim Evans]

Has anyone died under TNA's watch yet? I guess you could count the stage hand but that was a freak accident. I guess they'll wait till then.

[Victator]

TNA does not pay enough for guys to tolerate drug testing.

[Cox]

Has anyone died under TNA's watch yet? I guess you could count the stage hand but that was a freak accident. I guess they'll wait till then.

I think Crash Holly was under their watch, no?

[shoe]

Has anyone died under TNA's watch yet? I guess you could count the stage hand but that was a freak accident. I guess they'll wait till then.

 

Candido, but that was just a freak accident.

[shoe]

Though with Candido it could be linked to some extent to past drug issues. As in he was clean compared to wrestling standards, but the wrestling mentality was a cause in his death.

[FLIK]

Though with Candido it could be linked to some extent to past drug issues. As in he was clean compared to wrestling standards, but the wrestling mentality was a cause in his death.

???? Not sure what you mean.

He got injured, had surgery on his leg and died because the idiot Dr didn't tell him he wasn't supposed to fly afterwards so he got a blood clot as a result which led to his death, nothing to do with wrestling or drugs.

[Sean Liska]

Why can't TNA institute rigorous drug testing with similar punishments to WWE? Why can't TNA hold their performers accountable for their actions? Why isn't Dave banging that drum harder? I know drug testing would cost the company a significant amount of money to implement, but think of all the worthless things they've pissed money away on over the years. Just because there's "no solution" to Kurt's out of control runaway train, doesn't mean you shouldn't try and do everything in your power to put the brakes on. Wringing your hands and saying "well, it's TNA, what do you expect?" doesn't cut the mustard.

He can complain, but it's not going to happen, so he'll be wasting his breath. Seriously, it really is just TNA, they are what they are - the worst wrestling company ever in every way. Dave has probably written hundreds of pages about this stuff over the years, no one has put more time into advocating for drug testing than him.

[shoe]

Though with Candido it could be linked to some extent to past drug issues. As in he was clean compared to wrestling standards, but the wrestling mentality was a cause in his death.

???? Not sure what you mean.

He got injured, had surgery on his leg and died because the idiot Dr didn't tell him he wasn't supposed to fly afterwards so he got a blood clot as a result which led to his death, nothing to do with wrestling or drugs.

 

 

Because it happened a while ago I might have had my facts wrong. I thought with the clot he didn't do a follow up with a Dr. and tried to get by on his own. As in fighting through the injuries like a lot of wrestlers do.

[smkelly]

I would assume that the transition of heehawing, sweeping stuff under the rug, and generally being biased towards not throwing someone under the bus to doing what is needed to be done, said, and made public record would be a difficult one to make.

 

Personally, I'd throw Kurt under the bus. The man continues to make mind numbing mistakes on a yearly basis and without regard to his safety, and, that of others around him. I just want to make sure that it is known that Kurt isn't the victim here. I condemn drunk driving. Maybe Dave doesn't or maybe he doesn't want to make a complete 360 change and piss off Angle for going from an objective 5 to a subjective 11.

 

I think what Dave said was telling enough without using profanity or playing the fatherly role in a wrestling newsletter. It pretty much called Angle a lost cause; unless, "no solution" has positive connotations I am unaware of. And I have strong personal doubts that Kurt would heed Dave's heavy approach in the manner it should dawn on him anyway if Dave had used the smite stick on him. Me thinks that Angle would look at it as words kicking his reputation and livelihood around and not see the deeper message of, "Kurt, you're messin' up, man. Bad. You've gone from being self-destructive to that of a public nuisance that dangers everyone around you. I don't need to remind you of drunk driving statistics, they're on the Internet. Google them. But becoming a statistic for booze - let alone - the possible deaths of innocent bystanders, it is a sad and miserable way to exist. You need to seek help before something truly regretful happens to either yourself, or, your actions hurt or kill someone else whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time, while around the wrong man."

 

Kurt wouldn't see it that way, but even if he did, he'd still play the injured calf and attempt to gain pity for his unfortunate "mistakes," while completely missing how badly he has fucked up - yet once again.

 

Also. And if anything. Dave should address the wrestling "universe" as a whole when incidents like this occur. Wrestlers are continuously being busted for drunk driving. People are always quick to jump on the backs of companies once a wrestler has died. But in my opinion, the solution and remedy exists already, there just isn't a wrestling company on the globe that truly gives a damn about their performers on a personal level, but only what they can make in merchandising sales, asses in seats, and confusing numbers that relate to good PPV buys. The WWE is hammered by decades of deep dark secrets that are hidden in a variety of offices' closets. It is about time that TNA takes a few PR bitch slaps on the chin as well. They're not immune to showcasing talent that is drugged up beyond comprehension. Hell, they've had 'em main event PPVs fucked up. In any other professional career, run-ins with badges and judges usually leads to pink slips, unemployment, and public ridicule.

 

Notwithstanding, Matt Hardy was just recently fired, which is a good thing for TNA to do, but they did it after the fact - long after they should have had him committed, which really isn't all that hard nowadays. And its not like he won't be back in six-months/one-year. They've strung Scott Hall around since 2002. Honestly, I think Kurt should be canned for this. Besides it's not his first drunk driving charge either, so I'm not being overzealous here. Any other man, well, any other non-rich person that is, they'd be incarcerated for the offense. A third offense equals big yard time. But they're rich American wrestlers. A book could be written on the amount of times that wrestlers have broken laws, whether incidental or purposely, misdemeanor or felony, and show the amount of times that wrestlers (rich American wrestlers, mind you) have served any type of justifiable sentence behind bars, without getting their drugs, their booze, their women, or their paychecks. I'm guessing the turnover ratio is probably small. Point being, there needs to be dire circumstances imposed on these guys - professionally and criminally - if there is to be any type of rehabilitation from the plague of problems the wrestling lifestyle creates in men and women. Other than steep fines, jail time, and loss of work, it's just business as usual in professional wrestling.

[FLIK]

Re TNA drug testing - I remember a story from a while back about how they did 1 or 2 rounds of it but didn't actually bother to punish any of the people who tested positive and then never did it again.

 

Though with Candido it could be linked to some extent to past drug issues. As in he was clean compared to wrestling standards, but the wrestling mentality was a cause in his death.

???? Not sure what you mean.

He got injured, had surgery on his leg and died because the idiot Dr didn't tell him he wasn't supposed to fly afterwards so he got a blood clot as a result which led to his death, nothing to do with wrestling or drugs.

 

 

Because it happened a while ago I might have had my facts wrong. I thought with the clot he didn't do a follow up with a Dr. and tried to get by on his own. As in fighting through the injuries like a lot of wrestlers do.

 

Well, the timeline went something like

Sunday - Got injured

Monday - had the surgery

Tuesday - Worked TNA tv taping in a wheel chair, could be wrong but don't recall him doing anything physical that would have made his injury worse.

Late Tues or Wed - Flew home which caused the blood clot

Thursday - died

 

Sunny went into a lot of detail about what happened in one of her shoots, i've forgotten a lot of it but the basic gist was that he def wouldn't have flown home had they known what could happen and that he'd have been totally fine had he just stayed around Florida so it basicaly boils down to bad medical advice as the reason he passed away.

[Coffey]

Ya know, it's not just Angle either. A lot of wrestlers on the road do stupid shit like this. If you watch any shoot interviews, you know what I'm talking about. Listen to Kevin Nash tell stories about riding with Rick Rude. Or the Outsiders shoot when they were trying to get into Canada. Kurt gets caught, but he is not at any more fault than the rest of them. It needs to be wiped out period, not just in the case of Angle. That's why the "oh, it's just this business!" is such bullshit. It's like an excuse to condone rampant drug and alcohol abuse.

 

The easiest solution I can think of? A lot less travel...but obviously that wouldn't stop things, just make them less frequent.

[Sean Liska]

I have to soften what I wrote after re-reading the paragraph in the Observer about Kurt. It does come across as being almost defensive of him. I don't think he meant it that way, and he's probably just being realistic, but it didn't read well.

[sek69]

The F4W board may have peaked. That loser 'DC Sniper' started a thread complaining about the lack of pro wrestling coverage in the Observer and Dave responded with:

 

SEPTEMBER 5 ISSUE

 

14 PAGES PRO WRESTLING 78%

4 PAGES MMA 22%

 

 

YOU GET A CHANCE TO READ IT EVERY WEEK AND YOU CAN'T EVEN COMPREHEND SOMETHING AS BASIC AS THIS.

 

AS LONG AS YOU DON'T BREED WE'RE COOL, THO.

(It's in all caps because he is making fun of Sniper, who's "gimmick" is that he is a rude unfunny asshole who always posts in all caps)

 

Greatest Dave'ing of all time.

 

Anyways, Dave seems like a really nice guy but the trolls on the board are really getting to him (personally I think the board is sometimes funny, and the MMA section is alright, but I can definitely see how some people can hate it). It's too bad because it would be awesome to have Dave posting even occasionally on a good board.

 

 

I don't know which one started it, Dave or Bryan (they both do it now), but it's really fucking annoying when they cherry pick the one douchebag who makes a point that a lot of their fanbase agrees with and paints everyone who might feel that way like said douchebag. It's not like this DC Sniper guy was breaking any new ground in pointing out that Dave seems more interested in MMA these days by a wide margin and a lot of times the wrestling coverage feels like a vestigial organ from a bygone era. It's not like the wrestling news in most issues isn't mostly overviews of CMLL/AAA (provided by Steve Sims/KrisZ/Konnan's secretary) and the Smackdown reviews usually written by Bryan. The WWE blurb at the end is usually most of the wrestling news penned by Dave, and a lot of that is just results from that week's house shows which are mostly the same matches repeated. So in weeks where no BIG NEWZ~! or PPVs take place, you're basically getting 2 or 3 paragraphs of Dave insight in terms of wrestling content and he's got the nerve to act like anyone who points this out is some kind of ingrate.

 

I'm sure years of dealing with assholes on the board has probably caused his opinion of his readership to dive off a cliff, but once again he's showing the same attitude toward his audience he chastises WWE for all the fucking time.

[Mad Dog]

Has anyone died under TNA's watch yet? I guess you could count the stage hand but that was a freak accident. I guess they'll wait till then.

I think Crash Holly was under their watch, no?

 

No, he had been gone several months by that point. Plus, that was 2003 TNA and it was more like working an indy promotion then.

[TravJ1979]

Has anyone died under TNA's watch yet? I guess you could count the stage hand but that was a freak accident. I guess they'll wait till then.

I think Crash Holly was under their watch, no?

 

No, he had been gone several months by that point. Plus, that was 2003 TNA and it was more like working an indy promotion then.

 

 

Crash (as Mad Mikey) had his last TNA PPV match on 10/1/03 and died 11/6/03. He was still on the roster teaming with Shark Boy.

 

Also, Curt Hennig wrestled David Flair (possibly the worst match of his career) on 1/8/03 and died 2/10/03

 

He had been gone for a bit, but Malice/Wall (Jerry Tuite) died after last being seen in TNA by the US audience even though he was working Puerto Rico as well.

[smkelly]

The Wall was awesome in WCW.

[Loss]

The Wall was awesome in WCW.

Not really at all.

[El-P]

Man, The Wall was awful...

[Guest Slickster]

As crazy as it may sound, I almost see Dave being more torn between his fandom over Kurt and his connection to his family than he should be. Should be interesting to see.

That's horrific.

 

I think the truth is just that he's seen so many tragedies and is numb. We've seen this same deal play out time after time. It's not like Dave is defending Kurt. He's being realistic about how this is going to end. By saying there's "no solution", I'm guessing he meant in terms of other people trying to help him out. It's obvious that Kurt needs to take responsibility for his actions and get sober, no one would deny that. Dave has no great affection for Scott Hall, but he hasn't called him out personally either.

 

There's nothing Dave could do or say to change Angle's mind or to change his enablers' minds - and he knows this.

If any of Angle's friends saw a 'cry for help' article in the Observer they'd reject it with the stock anti-Dave ad hominem arguments, just as the Hardys and their enablers have done for years.

The only people who would need to read that 'cry for help' are the only people who would ignore it.

To everybody else, the story would be 'Dave's editorial' rather than 'Angle's downward spiral' and I'm pretty sure Dave doesn't want to become the story.

[Mad Dog]

Man, The Wall was awful...

He was awful. Decent as Malice in TNA though.

[jdw]

Depite the end section of my post, it was less about Dave getting up on the soap box about Kurt than him dropping the "no solution" nonsense. This isn't the first time he's said that, especially if we consider all the around about times he's gone down that path.

 

Dave has written more about the problems of drugs and destructive behavior in wrestling than anyone in the history of pro wrestling. He's been on the leading edge of it since Gino dropped dead: that's 25 years. He's done a ton of tremendous writting about it over the years, and no doubt a lot of it has been painful for him to write. We've seen what the alternative to Dave on this topic would be: jerkoffs like Ryder and Scherer defending pro wrestling and doing the "boys will be boys" crap.

 

My problem is with the "no solution" theme he's hit on: pro wrestling is pro wrestling, it's a tough business, workers get banged up, they need to medicate the hell out of themselves just to survive in the business... so by extension were going to have some of them dropping dead, some of them driving impared, quite a few of them becoming addicts.

 

I don't think any of us are naive that is a certain reality.

 

But imagine Tom Brady getting busted repeatedly for drunk driving, which are part of a long track record of drug and booze related issues that have been public.

 

Then imagine Peter King or Mort saying on SportsCenter or Sunday Night Football (i.e. the biggest profile football shows they can be on):

 

This sounds like a broken record, but if this was an isolated incident it would be one thing, but you are talking about someone who claimed to have a pain killer addiction while with the Patriots, was fired by Pats even though he was one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL at the time when they wanted him to go to rehab, and now we’ve had two arrests like this in recent months. It’s a tough deal because the guy is no doubt living in major pain and alcohol takes the edge off the pain, and he’s got the mentality where he has to prove he’s the best QB in the game where being the best requires beating your body up, plus he’s past 35 trying to hold onto an athletic peak and he’s ridiculously driven. It’s a time bomb of problems and there’s no solution. You can say get out of football, and he does want to transition out of wrestling to broadcasting, but that’s a lot easier said than done. Guys don’t leave the NFL for the most part unless they are no longer in demand, and even then, most take back up jobs because it’s quicker money than working a regular job since after 20 years of high school and college and pro football, most don’t have a lot of real world job skills unless it’s broadcasting or something to do with football and the number of big jobs available for ex-players is very few and they don’t make close to what Brady earns.

You don't think large chunks of the media would point out that King and Mort are out of line with "no solution" for Brady being fucked up and drinking & driving?

 

I'd also grant that major NFL media like Mort and King tend to ignore the obvious pill problems in the NFL far more than Dave has over the years. Like said above, all the credit in the world to Dave for massively covering this issue in wrestling for a quarter century. [i suspect if someone passes these two posts along to Dave, the putting over the great work Dave has done on the subject is going to get lost in the specific criticism... so I'm saying it again]

 

But you just can't go down the "no solution" route, no matter how broken record your coverage is. If that's how one feels, use it for things when guys drop dead or overdose like Gordy. Don't be so dumb as to use it when someone is out drinking and driving. There are obvious solutions there, and obvious risks that are to high, going beyond simply the risk of Kurt dropping dead.

 

John

[El-P]

Man, The Wall was awful...

He was awful. Decent as Malice in TNA though.

 

Yeah, I watched the first few PPV, and he seemed to have improved quite a bit since the Wall days. Well, he could only improve.

[Loss]

From the F4W board, Dave talking about Starrcade '88, Jim Herd and Dusty Rhodes. Some is old, some is new:

 

Ric never refused to put Rick Steiner over. It never got close to that far.

 

It's possible he may have and may have quit over it.

 

This is exactly what happened and I was practically there first hand because Jim Herd called Larry Matysik (who Herd at first was going to bring in as his first lieutenant but Herd got cold feet--Jim Barnett, not aware Matysik was a friend of mine, told me later he buried Matysik to Herd, never really got why other than perhaps he thought Matysik learned from Sam and maybe would see through Barnett and Barnett didn't want people like that around--hard to say, Barnett never gave me a reason and he's dead now) saying Dusty has booked Steiner to beat Flair in 6;00 in a cage match at Starrcade, and he feared when Flair finds out he'll quit. I think Ric did know, in fact, I'm sure Ric knew and Ric wasn't happy, but it never got to the point Ric refused.

 

What nobody knew was that if Flair quit, Ted didn't want the company so Herd had to overrule that finish for fear Flair would quit. That was when we realized how important Flair was to Turner because everyone had figured Turner just wanted wrestling to fill TV time and get ratings and didn't know one wrestler from another. Matysik told Herd that Starrcade is Flair beating Luger (since they never blew off the feud). Herd told Dusty it's Flair beating Luger. Dusty went and defied management to get fired because Herd overruled him. Eventually Dusty got his revenge because Jack Petrik went over Herd's head to bring in Dusty as booker several years later. Herd went to Petrik, either he goes or I go, and Petrik fired Herd.

 

Funny deal because I knew Dusty was coming in as booker and Herd, who was running the company, didn't, called me up, told me my info was wrong he was running the company and he'd never bring Dusty back. Dusty was telling everyone it wasn't true as well but I got it from someone who I knew was 100%. About ten days later Herd, who for all his faults, called me up, apologized and was pissed that the Observer had Dusty as the new booker a month before the guy running WCW knew about it and Herd was gone shortly thereafter.

 

Flair did on some occasions refuse to do things, but that was a Jim Herd call not a Ric Flair power play. Matysik was coming to me that day after every call with Herd, not that he needed to run anything past me but in case I came up with something better or whatever.

[Victator]

Man, The Wall was awful...

He was awful. Decent as Malice in TNA though.

 

Yeah, I watched the first few PPV, and he seemed to have improved quite a bit since the Wall days. Well, he could only improve.

 

Love the Sabu/Malice ladder match from the 3rd week.