dawho5

The International Wrestling Association is proud to announce that Andre the Giant will be appearing on July 30th, October 1st and December 31st in the Montreal Forum. In return the IWA is sending Steve Regal to the WWF for three months from July through the end of September. Frank Valois would like it to be known that Mr. Regal is available from October through December as well.

I left my next two picks with goc as I don't think I'll be around when the next comes up.

I imagine you've got free reign to run whatever shows you like within the touring dates established. I can't see why we would get that luxury and you wouldn't.

Yeah. Thankfully there are only a few more MVC matches in 1993 even worth watching for historical reasons. I don't hate 1993 MVC as much as 1991 MVC though. They did learn to give their opponents enough offense to make a match watchable by then. Like you said, it ends up softening your stance on workers you originally had a much worse take on. I could say the same about Sheamus in the WWE. Watching his early work when he was breaking in and being pushed was painful. Watching him in 2013 and 2014 was a highlight.

Rick Valentine was on my list as well. I just didn't have a ton of use for him so he slipped quite a ways down.

I thought that Gordy in particular looked really lost at points. And Doc cutting off Taue's first hot tag after two very big pops from the crowd was just stupid. I did think that overall Kawada was presented as the dominant member of his team though. Taue took the heat early, Kawada had to be dropped across the guard rail (after powerbombing Gordy no less) to put any kind of heat on him. I also thought the end was a complete departure from the body of the match. Equality opening, Taue heat, Williams heat, equality, dropping Kawada across the rail to start his heat, then we go to a finish where the MVCs take the majority and give Kawada jack shit for nearfalls. I get the idea of the faces working for their victory, but it doesn't fit with the earlier work..

I just left to watch a wrestling match. I hope you guys didn't miss that 3 minutes or anything. Yeah he was a need. I think having him manage the Midnights is a nice sort of parallel to Heyman managing the Original midnights.

Eddie Creatchman

I'll be waking up at 5 am for work, so I should be covered.

I actually liked Charles' idea that we are doing what we can to be objective despite knowing that it will ultimately fail and our subjective opinions of the match will color any objective thoughts we may have about it. That seems very close to how I watch wrestling. There's a reason I am stalled going forward on All Japan right before a MVC match, even against the newly formed Holy Demon Army. Williams and Gordy have proven time and again that no matter how much I know that on a certain level they have some things right, I very much do not like watching them wrestle as a team and have not since re-watching their 1991 and 1992 footage. They certainly improve in 1992, but that doesn't mean they are better than watching a different pairing of opponents. And another part of the objectivity I look for is how much that match is going to show me where Taue and Kawada are a team at that time. It is a huge measuring stick for them and I want to look at the match as something important and consequential. But then once it gets going if certain things that turn me off to watching the MVCs wrestle I may very easily lose interest. So it's a constant battle to retain the objectivity enough and not just say "fuck this" on a match as it starts making me not want to watch it.

A person could also argue that there is a certain amount of both objectivity and subjectivity in the way most of us look at wrestling. What the standards for the objectivity or the bias behind the subjectivity are is what sets every person apart as a fan. Acting as if it has to be all one way or all the other seems a bit off.

I think it'd be a lot easier to like what they are doing with their lower card guys like B & M, Enzo/Cass if they weren't feuding with each other. Neither is ready to carry a feud at the moment in-ring. Enzo/Cass can get by on the mic. If you're not using Solomon Crowe for anything at all why not give him a tag partner and have him take a run at B & M? Couldn't hurt to have a more experienced guy in the ring with all the youngsters. And the Vaudevillains can at least keep things interesting enough as heels on their own that they would make a good foil for Enzo/Cass. I think the current feud and the fact that neither team or their lady friend is ready for it as far as the in-ring side of things and one side isn't ready on promos makes it a really bad idea. I understand that they have to learn, but this early in the learning process it's nice to have somebody to guide them through it.

And an indirect influence on my internet handle. Now tell me, who are you?

I am in agreement with you Steven, but there is a point to be made here. Let's take two matches and compare them. Something deemed as a high end garbage match from the ECW heyday or Japan or wherever (I'm not into this style of wrestling) up against Giant Baba vs. the Destroyer 2/3 falls. I'd say we're in one of the few places where the Baba match is "better" on the internet according to more people than the other way around. Are we right? Are the majority of the rest of the internet who would pick the high end garbage match because it isn't "boring" right? I agree that the El Gigante example is far easier to decide for most. But there are a lot of areas where those value judgments we apply to things are very easily questioned outside of this immediate bubble. So I have a hard time with being totally dismissive of anything, despite some of my earlier remarks concerning Kobashi and some of the 2000s Japan matches I watched.

I would say that a Ric Flair match is closer to most people's ideals than an El Gigante match. But to those who prefer El Gigante I would not feel the need to tell them they are wrong. I also think that there is a reason there are garbage wrestling promotions, shootstyle promotions, lucharesu promotions, Japan-influenced indy promotions, lucha libre promotions, womens promotions, you name it. Because everyone likes different aspects of wrestling and there is at the very least a small amount of interest in seeing these varied types of wrestling matches. Just because Parv, Grimmas Poneglyph,Will, Loss or whomever might be watching wrestling does not think that a style or worker is worth their time that the style or worker should be dismissed as a "good wrestler". All of it exists because there is at least a small niche of fans who love it. To put forth the idea that it cannot possibly have value seems very shortsighted.

I'm debating what any of the last 3 pages had to do with wrestling at all. I'm of the opinion that wrestling is one of my favorite things. Whether it is defined as an art or a craft or whatever, I fucking love it. There is bad wrestling to be sure but that comes with every form of entertainment. There is definitely an art to pro wrestling when done at it's highest levels, but I don't know that qualifies wrestling to be defined as an art if I come right down to it. Either way, it seems like a debate to be had when there is nothing else demanding my attention.

This argument that Heyman creating this idea of a "golden era" for both the wrestlers and the fans at the time seems like an odd thing to use against him as a promoter. It seems like that would have been his main goal at the time and his success in achieving it seems like something in his favor. I would imagine that any promoter would want to create the illusion that right here, right now is where you want to be as a wrestling fan. That Heyman did this is an achievement that should be lauded for.

To further illustrate Poneglyph's point I will go this route. There are All Japan tag matches and six mans that are 3.5 stars in a lot of people's eyes. There are more select tags and six mans that are 4.5 and 5 from the same promotion. Are those 3.5 star matches now "bad" because you look at them in relation to those other tag matches? Does that affect how they are looked at in relation to an American match from the same time? So yes, there is the chance that an El Gigante match can be "good" in comparison to a worse El Gigante match. And from a certain standpoint it could be said that a particularly "good" El Gigante match may be comparatively better than his average and therefore preferable in a sense to a "bad" Flair match that is just as "bad" in relation to an average Flair match. Having said that I think it's a wrong way of looking at anything. However, that is my opinion and I'm sure there are those who may take that tack and I will not say they are not allowed to do so. I would also agree with OJ as well. Like what you want to like.

From my reading online it seems that Lyons was wrestling until 1984. Don't know how this should be handled.

I like the idea of having a Japan booker as well. This is a nice twist.

Steve Regal

I left instructions with goc in the event CFCW makes his pick right after I leave. If not, I will be making my pick first thing in the morning.

I thought that as faces they at least had interesting spots to insert into a match. Now all they have is a valet/part time wrestler who comes out with them that makes them interesting at all. There is some truth to the idea that they shouldn't be doing a bunch of cool shit because they are heels. It may hurt them a little bit that any cool shit they do at all will overshadow Enzo/Cass so they have to be extra bland to make them look good.

I'll be around all day tomorrow. I can let goc know what's up when I go get all my hairs cut in the afternoon.

That Gran Apollo match reminds me of a tag match between Choshu/Yatsu and Jumbo/Tenryu. Yatsu gets out of control after Jumbo refuses to brawl with him. Higuchi and Choshu try to calm him down for a bit and then the bell rings. I love that match.