Comments that don't warrant a thread 2010-2011

[Loss]

I like Miz just fine, but I've read a little about this in different places and was curious the opinions here. Is Miz not really being seen as a tough guy a problem? I think it's possible to be a vulnerable champion and still be seen as someone who can mix it up. I also think the illusion of someone being tough can be created with good booking. But I haven't really seen them push that with Miz at all.

 

It's 2010. Angles and stars don't drive business anymore, so I don't think it's an issue like it would have been even 10 years ago. But just in general, shouldn't it be somewhat important that the world champion is seen as a tough guy, not just an entertaining one?

 

The whole element of wrestlers actually being tougher than the guy watching from home seems to be dead in many ways. Miz's anti-Daniel Bryan promos about how he wasn't charismatic enough to be a WWE superstar are the perfect example of that, when maybe in a wrestling context his promos should have been that he wasn't tough enough to defend himself in WWE.

[MikeCampbell]

Loss, assuming they did try going in that direction, what would Bryan's counterpoint be to Miz? Because while Miz was saying that Bryan didn't have the personality, Bryan was pointing out that he was a better wrestler than the Miz.

[Loss]

Loss, assuming they did try going in that direction, what would Bryan's counterpoint be to Miz? Because while Miz was saying that Bryan didn't have the personality, Bryan was pointing out that he was a better wrestler than the Miz.

Yes I am and I'll prove it by beating you?

[Strummer]

I like Miz just fine, but I've read a little about this in different places and was curious the opinions here. Is Miz not really being seen as a tough guy a problem? I think it's possible to be a vulnerable champion and still be seen as someone who can mix it up. I also think the illusion of someone being tough can be created with good booking. But I haven't really seen them push that with Miz at all.

 

It's 2010. Angles and stars don't drive business anymore, so I don't think it's an issue like it would have been even 10 years ago. But just in general, shouldn't it be somewhat important that the world champion is seen as a tough guy, not just an entertaining one?

 

The whole element of wrestlers actually being tougher than the guy watching from home seems to be dead in many ways. Miz's anti-Daniel Bryan promos about how he wasn't charismatic enough to be a WWE superstar are the perfect example of that, when maybe in a wrestling context his promos should have been that he wasn't tough enough to defend himself in WWE.

 

I *think* this is the exact point Kevin Nash was trying to make online a few weeks ago and in his shoot with Waltman. He just couldn't make it without sounding like a jealous douche

[Loss]

Nash's points about how Sheamus is portrayed as a coward on TV and about Miz were spot on. It probably came from a douchey place in a way, but both of his points were correct.

[flyonthewall2983]

Right or wrong, Nash can't say anything without sounding like a douche. My theory; Kevin Nash is a douche.

[Guest kowking]

I like Miz just fine, but I've read a little about this in different places and was curious the opinions here. Is Miz not really being seen as a tough guy a problem? I think it's possible to be a vulnerable champion and still be seen as someone who can mix it up. I also think the illusion of someone being tough can be created with good booking. But I haven't really seen them push that with Miz at all.

 

It's 2010. Angles and stars don't drive business anymore, so I don't think it's an issue like it would have been even 10 years ago. But just in general, shouldn't it be somewhat important that the world champion is seen as a tough guy, not just an entertaining one?

 

The whole element of wrestlers actually being tougher than the guy watching from home seems to be dead in many ways. Miz's anti-Daniel Bryan promos about how he wasn't charismatic enough to be a WWE superstar are the perfect example of that, when maybe in a wrestling context his promos should have been that he wasn't tough enough to defend himself in WWE.

Er, what?

 

I understand that WWE, as a whole, is its own draw, though it's unclear just how permanent that is.

 

But angles don't drive business? Maybe not, again, so much in WWE, though certainly elsewhere.

[Dooley]

I like Miz just fine, but I've read a little about this in different places and was curious the opinions here. Is Miz not really being seen as a tough guy a problem? I think it's possible to be a vulnerable champion and still be seen as someone who can mix it up. I also think the illusion of someone being tough can be created with good booking. But I haven't really seen them push that with Miz at all.

 

It's 2010. Angles and stars don't drive business anymore, so I don't think it's an issue like it would have been even 10 years ago. But just in general, shouldn't it be somewhat important that the world champion is seen as a tough guy, not just an entertaining one?

 

The whole element of wrestlers actually being tougher than the guy watching from home seems to be dead in many ways. Miz's anti-Daniel Bryan promos about how he wasn't charismatic enough to be a WWE superstar are the perfect example of that, when maybe in a wrestling context his promos should have been that he wasn't tough enough to defend himself in WWE.

 

I *think* this is the exact point Kevin Nash was trying to make online a few weeks ago and in his shoot with Waltman. He just couldn't make it without sounding like a jealous douche

 

I don't think it's too much to ask that the heavyweight champion of the world at least look like a passable tough guy. I'm a lapsed fan, but when I heard that Miz was champ I couldn't get over that some fratboy douche from the "Real World" was now the figurative standard-bearer for the promotion. I said so much on DVDVR, but was promptly shouted down about how Miz is AWESOME. But especially in a world where more and more people would rather watch UFC, think about the guy at home looking at Cain Velasquez and then looking at Miz. Which one does he really believe is a heavyweight champ? I know kayfabe is all but dead, I just don't know why we constantly have to be beaten over the head with it.

[Coffey]

Quite a bit of news lately that no one has said anything about. Cena is hurt, although day-to-day so I doubt he'll miss any shows, WWE apparently signed Awesome Kong, which I never thought would happen, and Spike TV cancelled TNA ReAction.

 

Thoughts on any of that?

 

Is Miz not really being seen as a tough guy a problem?

Well, Mysterio is a 2x former champion, although I didn't buy him as credible. I think Miz is fine, myself. He's got himself into really good shape, he's getting better in the ring, he's good on the mic and he cheats anyway, so he doesn't need to be booked as a tough guy. If anything, WWE needs a Honky Tonk type heel on top for a change.

 

BTW, Loss, if you ever wrote a blog or anything about wrestling, I would read it. I love reading your opinions on shit.

[Loss]

The difference is that Misterio is a resourceful athlete. Misterio has been wrestling around the world for nearly two decades. Misterio has beaten guys much bigger than him cleanly, and has been competitive with pretty much everyone. That's his gimmick. That's how he's been pushed. I wouldn't want to face Rey in a fight, and I'm nearly a foot taller than him. He is credible. He's pushed as a talented athlete, and he has the skill to get heat against much bigger opponents, and fans buy his nearfalls. So credibility is not an issue for Rey at all. He's one of the most credible guys on the roster.

 

Miz is a reality TV guy. It's not a size thing, it's a skill thing. It's that his athletic credentials aren't hyped at all as part of his whole presentation. I don't even think he needs real credentials, they can just make them up. That's not at all to say Miz is bad, but just that he hasn't really been pushed in a way to get over the idea that he's any good as a wrestler. I don't think Miz's TV background is a detriment if he's pushed as someone to be feared or respected. WWE has had enough time to reinvent him however they wanted to do so. They've played on his charisma more than they have tried to give him cred, which is fine for an upper midcard act. I just wish they'd given him some serious wins when they decided they wanted to go all the way. The easiest way to do this in the past would have been to have him juice in some big matches and somehow come out on top. He's definitely a guy who would benefit from the image of having his hand raised while bloody, because it would show that he can take a beating and still win in the end.

 

My issue is not with Miz himself, it's with how he's being pushed as the top wrestler who isn't much of a wrestler.

 

EDIT: And thanks.

[Strummer]

To show how much times have changed and how kayfabe is dead when Miz won the title it never occured to me to ponder whether he was "tough enough" or had credibilty. Didn't really enter my mind till this thread

[Loss]

Do you think kid fans still ask each other who would win if Wrestler X and Wrestler Y ever faced each other?

[Strummer]

Do you think kid fans still ask each other who would win if Wrestler X and Wrestler Y ever faced each other?

I hope so. That's one of the things that made wrestling fun as a kid.

 

My previous statement wasn't an attempt to say credibilty no longer matters. It just never occurs to me to think about that stuff now. I haven't considered that aspect of wrestling in years. But I can definitely see kids being confused now

[Blehschmidt]

Do you think kid fans still ask each other who would win if Wrestler X and Wrestler Y ever faced each other?

 

I think that's the whole problem right there, they don't have too. With absolutely zero build to pay per views, and name matches being given away every week on Raw and Smackdown, there is no mystery, there is no what if. They've seen it all.

 

Furthermore, when we were kids we got to fantasize about if Hogan met Flair, or if the Road Warriors met Demolition. Now all of the "name" wrestlers are in the WWE, or have been in the WWE recently, and there are no dream matches left.

 

I know some people may point to homegrown TNA talents like AJ Styles or the Machine Guns, or even a guy who came out of ROH like Samoa Joe as someone who hasn't worked with most of the WWE roster, but I think only a small percentage of the non-IWC fan base even knows what TNA is.

 

I work at a high school and when I hear wrestling being spoken of, 99% of the time it is WWE. So when WWE doesn't consider them competition, and when the average fan doesn't know they exist, how can they fantasize about Wrestler X fighting Wrestler Y in a cross promotional battle.

 

Unfortunately, I think it all leads back to lack of competition creatively killing the business.

[Victator]

Credibility still matters in wrestling even in a fictional context. You still need to buy what is happening. You could not just have David Spade be this badass beating up Sylvester Stallone. You would not be able to buy it. I don't have a problem with Miz he has been pushed for years now and I think they took a lot of the reality tv stink off him. The problems with WWE go a lot deeper than Miz being champion.

[Victator]

While I'm here. What exactly did people hate about the NWA TBS show in 87? Watching it on 24/7 and the last month of shows have been great.

[Dylan Waco]

My daughter asks me all the time what would happen if Rey Misterio "fought" John Cena

[Strummer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSEUN0vZAaM

 

Meltzer talks about this angle all the time as the all time worst. It was voted 1981's Most Disgusting Promotional tactic. Don't know if this is the same promotion that Dave said Vince got ideas for 80s WWF wackiness

 

and of course the monster was built as real and Andre killed the gimmick by ripping off the mask. Ha!

[rovert]

My old pal Gary Cubeta made a return yesterday posting a tonne of new audio, he is closing the site down New Years apparently.

 

Listen to this short update:

 

http://57gold.com/playerMP3.asp?v=740

 

This is Glen Beck territory.

[Bix]

Did you mean this? http://57gold.com/57cp/media/finalupdate.mp3

[rovert]

Whoops looks like he changed stuff around, yeah thats it. He deleted some shows there such as his show with JR Jackson.

[Guest kowking]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSEUN0vZAaM

 

Meltzer talks about this angle all the time as the all time worst. It was voted 1981's Most Disgusting Promotional tactic. Don't know if this is the same promotion that Dave said Vince got ideas for 80s WWF wackiness

 

and of course the monster was built as real and Andre killed the gimmick by ripping off the mask. Ha!

I don't know anything about this. anyone care to tell me more?

[MikeCampbell]

To show how much times have changed and how kayfabe is dead when Miz won the title it never occured to me to ponder whether he was "tough enough" or had credibilty. Didn't really enter my mind till this thread

Well, look at the circumstances of Miz winning the title, it wasn't exactly designed to show people that he was a tough guy or a credible champion (although I thought his counter of the RKO to the Skull Crushing Finale was rather nice).

[tomk]

Some of this discussion may be going over my head as outside of Miz matches I haven’t watched a ton of WWE in last couple months ( so have really nothing to say about Seamus) and well I don’t watch shoots so haven’t seen Nash/Waltman thing.

 

Still:

 

-Yes I've seen kids still do the who would beat who discussion.

 

-I’ve been really digging the Miz that I’ve seen lately. For a guy who started out doing Rock impressions, his mic work and in ring work now a days feels super Brian Christophery. He’s a guy who is easy to dislike , who you want to see beaten who has a bunch of signature spots which also work really well as signature missed spots. I think Morrison is really bad in the Taz chasing Corino role. But Miz is really good as guy you want chased.

 

-In 1985, Randy Savage matches pretty much consisted of nothing but him beggin off, running and bumping until he was able to bonk opponent with scroll (bonking opponent with scroll wasn’t transition to heel offense it was finish where either he’d win or loose by DQ). A year or more of this made him appear tough. This is the old WWF has no strong heels crit. The counter argument to that criticism, is that while I may find that booking strategy to be dull, they’re very successful with it. At no point does Miz come across less tough than 80s WWF weak heels. He comes accross as tougher than "Ultimate Opportunist" Edge.

 

-Real World/Road Rules challenge has very slowly transformed itself into a ridiculous Marine triathalon. It was always an event where you saw guys pushing themselves beyond their normal limits…but it has slowly transformed itself from a show where junkies and drunks push past their limits to a 14 mile race where the contestants cover themselves in tar at three mile point to make the heat worse for last 10 miles (where somewhere around 6 mile point they have to wade through a swamp while trying to remember the difference between Russian and Polish verb conjugation). If it was a choice between getting into a fight with 5’4 Derrick (not even CT) or Nash, I think most Tv fans would be far less intimidated by Nash. After last challenge flamboyant 6’ 200 lb Tyler is probably more intimidating an athletic challenge. Miz is from an earlier cycle when the competition was less athletic….but the transformation of the Challenge into a more and more strenuous athletic competition has been so smooth that I think people forget how unathletic it once was. And Miz isn’t hurt.

 

-One of the points I made again and again when I was reviewing TNA, was that booking Nash (wether someone else booked him, or he booked himself) as tough and intimidating was always a mistake. When Nash is booked as tough and intimidating he comes off as clumsy and fragile. There are lots of ways to book Nash strong and to play to his strengths. But if you’ve seen him live, Nash may be the least tough or intimidating guys of his height. Shawn Kemp is more menacing. If he thinks that the period when he drew was a period where he had an aura of toughness around him, he has no self awareness.

[Dooley]

-In 1985, Randy Savage matches pretty much consisted of nothing but him beggin off, running and bumping until he was able to bonk opponent with scroll (bonking opponent with scroll wasn’t transition to heel offense it was finish where either he’d win or loose by DQ). A year or more of this made him appear tough. This is the old WWF has no strong heels crit. The counter argument to that criticism, is that while I may find that booking strategy to be dull, they’re very successful with it. At no point does Miz come across less tough than 80s WWF weak heels.

While I see what you're getting at, the 80's weak WWF heels weren't World Heavyweight Champion and expected to be taken seriously. Honky had that run with the IC belt but that was about it. I guess we're venturing into the Russo vs. Hart debate of the world title is a prop vs. the world title should be taken seriously. I'll go back to an earlier point I made. Kids today are frequently choosing between UFC and pro wres. One of those two heavyweight champions looks like a total badass that will destroy you. The other was on the Real World.

 

-One of the points I made again and again when I was reviewing TNA, was that booking Nash (wether someone else booked him, or he booked himself) as tough and intimidating was always a mistake. When Nash is booked as tough and intimidating he comes off as clumsy and fragile. There are lots of ways to book Nash strong and to play to his strengths. But if you’ve seen him live, Nash may be the least tough or intimidating guys of his height. Shawn Kemp is more menacing. If he thinks that the period when he drew was a period where he had an aura of toughness around him, he has no self awareness.

I think the key point is "of his height". But how many others are even in the equation? Onscreen, looking at a legit 7' 300 lb dude (wearing those pants that cover his chicken legs) he's easier to be bought as a badass than a guy whose half his size. In the initial Diesel years and then after the disastrous babyface run, they were able to make him look like a killer. Nash then brought some of that with him to WCW, added the comedy schtick and drew ridiculous money. He wasn't playing chickenshit heel during the NWO years. Sure he's completely broken down now but to say Nash never drew money as a guy that was a "threat" is incorrect.