What are you watching?

[goodhelmet]

5559922[/url]']

This afternoon I watched the LA Park vs. Dr. Wagner Jr brawl from the May TXT. Initially it feels like a top 5 MOTYC but I'll know that for sure once I look back on some of NJ's best with a fresh perspective. I'm not comfortable putting it above either main event from Summerslam, but I'll be damned if this wasn't a sick, violent spectacular brawl.

 

I'd encourage anyone who hasn't checked it out to do so. I don't keep up with lucha regularly, basically catching some of the more highly touted matches as they pop up, and can confidently say that you can go into this one cold and it shouldn't impact your ability to enjoy it at all.

 

Beyond that, I need a little help from folks on the finish -- Black Terry clearly awared the third fall and match to Park, even after counting him down. What's the story here? Is it building to something with Terry/Wagner? A tag with Terry/Park vs. Wagner/Santo or something similar? I recall talk about a mask vs. mask match at one of the big bullring stadiums, but haven't checked back in the WON yet to see where that stands.

 

Either way, KrisZ or somebody, hook me up -- I need to get involved in anything else going on with this!

 

It is my current MOTY even after watching Summerslam and the Lucero title matches. I tend to prefer lucha brawls over title matches so it got the nod for me.

[WingedEagle]

5559922[/url]']

This afternoon I watched the LA Park vs. Dr. Wagner Jr brawl from the May TXT. Initially it feels like a top 5 MOTYC but I'll know that for sure once I look back on some of NJ's best with a fresh perspective. I'm not comfortable putting it above either main event from Summerslam, but I'll be damned if this wasn't a sick, violent spectacular brawl.

 

I'd encourage anyone who hasn't checked it out to do so. I don't keep up with lucha regularly, basically catching some of the more highly touted matches as they pop up, and can confidently say that you can go into this one cold and it shouldn't impact your ability to enjoy it at all.

 

Beyond that, I need a little help from folks on the finish -- Black Terry clearly awared the third fall and match to Park, even after counting him down. What's the story here? Is it building to something with Terry/Wagner? A tag with Terry/Park vs. Wagner/Santo or something similar? I recall talk about a mask vs. mask match at one of the big bullring stadiums, but haven't checked back in the WON yet to see where that stands.

 

Either way, KrisZ or somebody, hook me up -- I need to get involved in anything else going on with this!

 

It is my current MOTY even after watching Summerslam and the Lucero title matches. I tend to prefer lucha brawls over title matches so it got the nod for me.

 

I can definitely see it, it really was that out of this world. The Summerslam matches win out for me because I watch the TV so I came into & out of them with more of an interest in the stakes, but this was on the same level as far as not giving you a second to turn your eyes away. What was the deal with the finish and what it was building?

[ohtani's jacket]

Beyond that, I need a little help from folks on the finish -- Black Terry clearly awared the third fall and match to Park, even after counting him down. What's the story here? Is it building to something with Terry/Wagner? A tag with Terry/Park vs. Wagner/Santo or something similar? I recall talk about a mask vs. mask match at one of the big bullring stadiums, but haven't checked back in the WON yet to see where that stands.

 

Either way, KrisZ or somebody, hook me up -- I need to get involved in anything else going on with this!

The finish was a DQ. I don't think it's going anywhere since Wagner has left TXT and no-one wants to put the money up for the Wagner/Park mask match after that TXT show drew poorly.

[WingedEagle]

That's a shame. Seemed to set up Wagner/Terry and then a rematch of this classic.

[Sidebottom]

USWA had some pretty mental stuff going on at times. Check out Lawler vs Leatherface. They actually run clips from the film to get the message across that this guy actually wants to kill Jerry. Proper mental stuff. Not sure what year is from though.

[Matt D]

Watching the L.A. Park vs Wagner Jr. match now. I like that the first fall wasn't necessarily overkill. Yes it was a lot, but once they got back to the ring, they went right to driving the point home. I think a lot of wrestlers from around the world would have drawn that out more after the power bomb and it was absolutely not necessary. The blood stuff was all twisted, both Wagner wiping it on his own chest and then Park wiping it on his hands and licking it EXACTLY while the ring girl walks out with the segunda caida sign. That was all fairly grindhouse. I think Park had some very varied and interesting ways of just brutally dismantling the hell out of Wagner. I'm not sure I've ever seen the basic idea of "just slam the guy's head into something repeatedly" done so well. The transition was awesome because you're kind of thinking at that point: "what can Wagner do to get back into the match quickly and believably?" And just spearing Park into the chairs was so simple and effective. It was also one of the more believable "Bursts of adrenaline" I've seen when Wagner takes over. Some of that is how he moves around the ring, but I think some of it is just the natural thrill of the possibilities of revenge, if that makes any sense. It's visceral here. It's also a matter of pacing. He's not doing a ton of stuff. He's slamming a chair into his enemy with well-paced shots, the best being the momentum gathering running one. I love the fans with the masks trying to rouse their hero but then it's followed by one of them stooging while Park is about to get nailed with a chair. Weirdly surreal image. All this crowd stuff is a hell of a spectacle and I really like the symmetry with the beating around the arena and the ramp and the mask tearing. Someone like the Mando > Eddie guy could write up some crap about how surreal it is to see Park's mask ripped since it's representative of what's inside of him, so to see it opened up ... something, something. For someone who hasn't seen it before, it just came off as an offputting image. There's this hugely triumphant feel when Wagner's back in the ring and doing the clotheslines. It's like a celebration.

 

Yeah, I really liked those first two falls and especially how they played off each other.And I am perfectly cool with the reset to start the last fall. It fit into the symmetry well and both guys are just reeling from the get go. When Wagner holds up his hands for Park to stop, it's one of those moments where I don't know if I'm seeing something that usually happens in lucha or not. Independently, it's cool, since both wrestlers are channeling the crowd and even after all the hatred, it's believable that there'd be that moment of pause. Granted Wagner uses it to start fighting back from the slaps but I don't think it was just misdirection. It's almost like these two wrestlers have transcended the hatred and reached a higher plateau of existence through trying to kill each other. What makes all of this work is the space between moves. Every little thing is so damn weighty.

 

And then it kind of goes on and loses me a little. I think this is a personal problem I've been having with lucha though. I don't really see the shape of the third fall after the dive. it becomes very much "I hit a big move. You hit a big move." and on paper it's not too different from WWE Main Event ending run style, and in a lot of ways is superior since the pacing is slower and the kickouts aren't so ridiculous but I think because I'm used to something so different, it throws me off a little. It's almost like, because they're moving so slowly, I can see the strings holding the trick up?

 

MAYBE it's not just me though since, from what I can tell, the crowd loses a lot of energy mid way through the third fall. It's still hot, but it was explosive before and instead of escalating, it deflates a little. I do think it really does come back after the leg whip though, mainly because of the "What else can we do?" mannerisms both guys are showing, and it's only increased from there with the ref bump/low blow and the near falls as they head towards the finish.

 

The finish has the real feel of one of those 70s/early 80s interpromotional US Champion vs Champion matches. There's the visual fall but the ultimate win and no one leaves satisfied. Anyway, I thought it lost its way a little in the third fall, but almost because it had raised the emotional stakes SO high at the start of the fall. It's sort of a shitty thing to hold against a match and sort of hard to explain. In total I thought it was great and I'm pretty sure I like brawls way more than title matches, but for my own weird reasons. I didn't meant to write so much about this at all. I'm glad I watched it.

[Lust Hogan]

I just watched the CM Punk Best in the World documentary (I know....late to the game). Great documentary and the IWA and ROH footage really added to it along with Lars. Question for you guys: Does Punk hate Miz or was it just that Miz was in the main event slot? I know he thought he was better than John Morrison but at least he gave him a compliment while saying so. Punk TOTALLY buries Miz in the Wrestlemania segment. Was there more to that story?

[ohtani's jacket]

That's a shame. Seemed to set up Wagner/Terry and then a rematch of this classic.

Don't worry, they wrestle each other all the time and have been teasing a mask match for the past decade. Another of their matches will pop up eventually.

[WingedEagle]

That's a shame. Seemed to set up Wagner/Terry and then a rematch of this classic.

Don't worry, they wrestle each other all the time and have been teasing a mask match for the past decade. Another of their matches will pop up eventually.

 

Any in particular you'd recommend? Definitely want to check them out if they're even close to this one.

[Phil Schneider]

Did you see the PARK v. Mesias series from a couple years ago? Similar matches which may have even better

[ohtani's jacket]

That's a shame. Seemed to set up Wagner/Terry and then a rematch of this classic.

Don't worry, they wrestle each other all the time and have been teasing a mask match for the past decade. Another of their matches will pop up eventually.

 

Any in particular you'd recommend? Definitely want to check them out if they're even close to this one.

 

It's not really the kind of wrestling I like, but their 11/15/12 match from Naucalpan is online as is their 12/16/11 title match from Puebla. You can also find their Arena Mexico match from 2006 online. And as Phil said, the Mesias matches were highly regarded.

[Jimmy Redman]

I just watched the CM Punk Best in the World documentary (I know....late to the game). Great documentary and the IWA and ROH footage really added to it along with Lars. Question for you guys: Does Punk hate Miz or was it just that Miz was in the main event slot? I know he thought he was better than John Morrison but at least he gave him a compliment while saying so. Punk TOTALLY buries Miz in the Wrestlemania segment. Was there more to that story?

I think it was both. It's pretty well known that a lot of dudes backstage hate Miz, or hated him at least, and for someone who hated him (and thought that he sucked) the fact that he got the WM main event spot "over me" would have made it worse.

 

Miz was pretty hated in that period. I remember Alberto doing an out of character interview and saying he wanted to punch Miz in the face repeatedly. Even Cena threw some 'shoot' lines into his promo once about trying to carry Miz through their feud, which is pretty mind blowing from a guy as professional as Cena.

[WingedEagle]

Did you see the PARK v. Mesias series from a couple years ago? Similar matches which may have even better

May have been better? Will absolutely be checking that out tomorrow afternoon. I assume I'll track them down on youtube and go chronologically unless there's something else you think I should mix in there.

 

OJ, thanks for the heads up about the prior matches. Will def look into those as well.

[Mad Dog]

I watched the free IVP download which was a Dusty Rhodes in New Japan comp.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, good brawl with Abdullah the Butcher in there. Another oddball match up as Antonio Inoki and Dusty team up to take on Hulk Hogan and Stan Hansen. On a more humorous note, Bobby Duncam and Sgt. Slaughter came down to the ring to an instrumental version of "Under the Rainbow".

 

Also been slowly making my way through the 2010 G-1 Glimax. Been digging that. This was my first exposure to Mr. Strong and he's really fun for a roid freak. I'm really digging the IVP download service. I love that I don't have to dump $30-50 on an order. I can just get shows when I want to watch them. It's really changed my viewing habits.

[DR Ackermann]

It's really weird to see all this praise for the Wagner/Park match. I don't mean that to be condescending. I just feel like I'm missing something. This topic got me hyped up to see it and then I was bored to death by everything that happened outside the ring and after the first fall. I know next to nothing about lucha libre so maybe it would mean more if I was watching it in the right context? I did like the very beginning and there were some cool visuals but I didn't get why Wagner got Park to stop just by holding his hands up.

[Johnny Sorrow]

It's Punk being a dick. This idea that Miz was a reality show guy who got hired right out of bring on MTV is so not true. The guy was just as much of a life long fan as Punk. Miz learned and trained in the indies, just not in ROH. The guy is a total good dude. He's just a shitty babyface. Punk being whiny cause a guy was being pushed that he didn't like is sour grapes. Boo boo.

[Smack2k]

I just watched the CM Punk Best in the World documentary (I know....late to the game). Great documentary and the IWA and ROH footage really added to it along with Lars. Question for you guys: Does Punk hate Miz or was it just that Miz was in the main event slot? I know he thought he was better than John Morrison but at least he gave him a compliment while saying so. Punk TOTALLY buries Miz in the Wrestlemania segment. Was there more to that story?

I think it was both. It's pretty well known that a lot of dudes backstage hate Miz, or hated him at least, and for someone who hated him (and thought that he sucked) the fact that he got the WM main event spot "over me" would have made it worse.

 

Miz was pretty hated in that period. I remember Alberto doing an out of character interview and saying he wanted to punch Miz in the face repeatedly. Even Cena threw some 'shoot' lines into his promo once about trying to carry Miz through their feud, which is pretty mind blowing from a guy as professional as Cena.

 

Anothet thing I love its that although he got "the spot over me" as some have said....if most of them were told they werent really going to be the main focus of that Main Event, they (Punk) would be bitching about Rock taking the spotlight from them....

 

That is the first time I have read something about PUnk and thought "Shut the fuck up Punk...you are one of the best, still have a HUGE future of main events.....let it go.."

[goodhelmet]

I just watched the CM Punk Best in the World documentary (I know....late to the game). Great documentary and the IWA and ROH footage really added to it along with Lars. Question for you guys: Does Punk hate Miz or was it just that Miz was in the main event slot? I know he thought he was better than John Morrison but at least he gave him a compliment while saying so. Punk TOTALLY buries Miz in the Wrestlemania segment. Was there more to that story?

Johnny's wrong. He buried him because he thinks he is a shitty wrestler who didn't merit the push he was getting for his talent level. He was right.

[MikeCampbell]

I finally got around to the Cesaro vs Zayn 2/3 falls NXT match that people have been raving about. It's a good match, but the hype is overblown. The finish is sick with Cesaro muscling him up and fucking launching him into the air for the uppercut.

[Log]

I liked that match quite a bit. I think like 80% of my liking it was that final spot, though. Cesaro power spots may be my favorite thing to watch right now.

[Matt D]

I finally got around to the Cesaro vs Zayn 2/3 falls NXT match that people have been raving about. It's a good match, but the hype is overblown. The finish is sick with Cesaro muscling him up and fucking launching him into the air for the uppercut.

It means a lot more if you watch the two matches previously. They pull spots and counters and even themes from the earlier matches.

[MikeCampbell]

I liked that match quite a bit. I think like 80% of my liking it was that final spot, though. Cesaro power spots may be my favorite thing to watch right now.

Yeah, the final spot was awesome, but Cesaro's deadlift superplex was pretty sweet too.

[ButchReedMark]

S4C re-ran a lot of them fairly recently (as in the shows would've been recorded on DVD not VHS), or have those generally been searched and uploaded already?

Not a clue. I remember when you're on about though. Early 2000s on S4C Digidol bookmarked by C'Mon Midffild repeats.

 

Unfortunately most of the tapes I got out of the loft were damaged by damp, but there's some cracking episodes of Pobol Y Cwm on the ones that survived.

[Matt D]

I realized I had never seen Royal Rumble 1988 so I'm watching that. I actually quite liked the Rude vs Steamboat match though i don't think Rude was 100% there yet. I was disappointed by Glamour Girls vs Jumping Bomb Angels but thought that the best performance in the match was EASILY Judy Martin.

[Mini Bennett]

I just watched the CM Punk Best in the World documentary (I know....late to the game). Great documentary and the IWA and ROH footage really added to it along with Lars. Question for you guys: Does Punk hate Miz or was it just that Miz was in the main event slot? I know he thought he was better than John Morrison but at least he gave him a compliment while saying so. Punk TOTALLY buries Miz in the Wrestlemania segment. Was there more to that story?

Johnny's wrong.

 

Why?