Loss Posted August 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Also, there are plenty of people who were considered great then, and are still considered great now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 How does Bruce justify the infamous Luger match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 With Brody, assuming he's talking about here, DVDVR, or another "related" board, when do we ever talk about Brody NOT in the context of his time? The biggest Brody thread we had was about how much better other '80s brawlers were. The vast majority of Brody discussion at DVDVR is '80s set forum threads discussing his best matches in the context of the best matches the promotions they were in. As for Angle: Wrestling is guys entertaining a bunch of spectators by having a fake fight. That match was full of action and drama that entertained all the fans in the building and the vast, vast majority of them watching on at home. If you rounded up any 100 wrestling fans you found on the street who saw that match and asked them if it was great, they would say yes. You can bitch about Michaels kicking out of finishers and Jesus'ing up and whatever, but you miss the point that the fans who watch WWE enjoy that stuff. They WANT to see Shawn kick out of Angle's big moves. They WANT to see the kip up, they WANT to see the elbow, and all the rest of it. Both Shawn and Angle understand what the fans want, and how to tease certain things and then deliver them at the perfect time. It results in the vast, vast majority of fans jumping up and down and screaming and clapping and having a great time. If you want to argue that the finish was bad for business, be my guest. But to say that these two WWE wrestlers did not have a great WWE wrestling match is ridiculous. This point of view wouldn't bother me if it didn't come from a newsletter writer. Fans would enjoy a Hulk Hogan match more than anything these two could pull off, so suddenly all of his matches are better than this one because of it? John Cena was getting a louder, more passionate reaction than either guy and you and Dave constantly shit on him for how bad he is. But if you go up to the average fan on the street, again, that's not going to be the typical response you get. So what's the difference? Why, when it's brought up how someone like Cena is good is it brought up how horrible he is in the ring? Why are Angle and Michaels somehow above that criticism? If you're going to make the argument just about being over, then you're opening quite the can of worms. And that's fine. But it's also inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 With Brody, assuming he's talking about here, DVDVR, or another "related" board, when do we ever talk about Brody NOT in the context of his time? When do we talk about ANYONE out of context. I think maybe once in a blue moon there's a "How would Wrestler X do today?" And there's the occasional GOAT or WON HOF stuff, but in general, even then, it's all pretty grounded in context. 70% of those notes end up being about drawing or headlining anyway, about numbers in context. EDIT: Except that's not what he's really saying. What I think he's saying is that you can only evaluate a wrestler from 1986 if you put yourself in the mindset of a fan/observer/evaluator from 1986. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 There's also that anyone that admits to the deadly sin of enjoying a Brody match has been ridiculed repeatedly by the beehive to the point they are probably smart enough not to bother participating in threads on him at this point. Exciting the crowd makes a good worker. What are his thoughts on Hulk Hogan? Is there anyone that still argues Hogan was universally terrible (before he was a million years old) that is taken seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 That's not quite 100% true, a match between Abdullah and Brody on the DVDVR Texas set did well in the voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Is it just me or does this topic come up in some form every few months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 I seem to remember Dory Funk Jr vs. Brody being better than one might expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Is it just me or does this topic come up in some form every few months? I don't think it's quite that often, but yeah, it seems to come up semi frequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Has Pedro Morales ever been in a good match? Yes!!!! He had really good matches with Patera and Buddy Rose in 1980 and was fucking OVER!!! If you want a guy like Harley Race who was breaking out 30 moves a match, not going to like him. If you enjoyed Jim Duggan in Mid South because of how chrismatic he was, I could see you digging Pedro. Watched a really good match - Pedro vs Adonis from MSG. Very good match. Mission accomplished seeing a good Morales match. Pedro seemed to be in better shape here than a lot of the duds I've seen him in. I can see what you mean with the charisma. There's something there and for the first time understand why he was over. Watching Adonis bump in this match brought up a series of questions. Flair, Adonis, Heenan, Sarge (to an extent), Harley (to an extent), and maybe some others share a similar bumping style. The headfirst flip-and-over in the corner as an example, but an overall bumping style that is very similar and was carried on with Hennig and Michaels. Who was the "godfather" of this style? Was there one? Ray Stevens? Did someone before Ray Stevens bump like that? Did it originate in one of Verne's camps? Seems like it's a shared style with a lot of guys that were cutting their teeth in the early to mid 70's, just wondering where it came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Bruce Mitchell had a bit of a moan about the "alternative reality" that exists online on the second of his weekend audios. The "alternative reality" being the opinions associated with the unnamed board DVDR board and here I guess about Kurt Angle not being a good worker and likewise Bruiser Brody. On the former he thinks people neglect the concept that exciting the crowd make a good worker and with Brody people neglect the context of the time, his character and promotion(s) he was operating in. Along with the suggestion that they were poor historians as they are watching in a distorted fashion by not talking to people were around at the time and getting a feel for the context that way. He cited the reaction to an AJPW match where Brody & Windham were in the ring and Brody just steamrollers Barry in a match which lead to comments about how terrible and selfish Brody was. Bruce felt that those responding where the ignoring the context - Brody being the mega star and it being Barry's first tour. He did admit he was generalising but there was validity to what he was saying.... Considering the word "historian" was used, this is aimed at folks like Yohe and me. I'm not sure how much he even pays attention to DVDVR or here. It's an old argument Bruce made that's stuck in his head, bubbling up again. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Exciting the crowd makes a good worker. What are his thoughts on Hulk Hogan? There's your problem right there. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Considering the word "historian" was used, this is aimed at folks like Yohe and me. I'm not sure how much he even pays attention to DVDVR or here. It's an old argument Bruce made that's stuck in his head, bubbling up again. John You would know better than me on that front in terms of past history. The "poor historian" thing was said in the context of people evaluating Bruiser Brody on a poor contextual foundation so to speak at least in Bruce's eyes. So you are likely right about it being a Wrestling Classics knock. He referred to the Kurt Angle is bad worker talking point as a trendy contrarian thing from 5 years ago which has reappeared to him again just recently. That opinion of Angle really took root on DVDR but I've seen people discuss it pretty much everywhere consistently over the years. Additionally DVDR, trendiness or contrarism doesnt enter the discussion anymore. Likely due to the fact Kurt has played into the criticisms of his own accord as he has gotten more and more implusive in the ring. It is kinda odd that he thinks that it has only been apart of two waves rather than an ongoing criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 The problems with Angle's work are the easiest things in the world to explain and understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I seem to remember Dory Funk Jr vs. Brody being better than one might expect. Even then that match only came 76th out of 150 matches in the DVDVR All Japan balloting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I think it's funny that Brody always seems to result in the crankiest responses. More so than TM, DK, Flair or others who have been criticized more in recent years than previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Great deal if you like Art of Wrestling and want to show some appreciation for the podcast: http://digitalcolt.com/product/colt-cabana...g-premium-vol-1 Regal mentioned that he recorded an episode of it with Colt a few days ago. Something to look forward to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 I seem to remember Dory Funk Jr vs. Brody being better than one might expect. Even then that match only came 76th out of 150 matches in the DVDVR All Japan balloting. A few days late, but...almost in the top half is pretty damned impressive. That's a match that I'm guessing most people initially had pegged for the Bottom 5. "Better than one might expect" is a perfectly apt description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricR Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 The first Brody/Dory match on the set was awesome. The 2nd one was exactly like the match-up sounds on paper and was horrendous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I really dislike Kurt Angle. His match with Jeff Hardy on iMPACT! last night pretty much summed up every reason why too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKMgfUAFZQ Starts 1:04:00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 What was the last Angle match where he didn't kick out of his opponent's finisher and his opponent didn't kick out of the Angle Slam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonsault Marvin Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 I really dislike Kurt Angle. His match with Jeff Hardy on iMPACT! last night pretty much summed up every reason why too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKMgfUAFZQ Starts 1:04:00 That match seems rather restrained compared to the kinds of matches Angle was doing a couple of years ago with A.J. Styles where they no sold everything. I was more surprised that Hardy actually got through a match without any major botches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 What was the last Angle match where he didn't kick out of his opponent's finisher and his opponent didn't kick out of the Angle Slam? I think Jeff Jarrett wasn't letting him do that nonsense last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I tried watching Smackdown episode on Hulu yesterday. The opening segment was Sheamus/Orton/Booker/Del Rio talking for almost 20 minutes. Orton sucks, I mean he really sucks. There's nothing even remotely natural about the guy. Everything seems 100% forced and fake coming out of his mouth. I also used to find Del Rio to be interesting but he seems really stale to me now. I hate the opening yap fests. It just sucks the momentum out of the show. After that it was a Ryback vs. Mahal and then a divas match. I think I tapped out right about there. I couldn't take it and I fucking hate Michael Cole, he really ruins everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Thought this was worth bringing to people's attention to here. The first shoot interview worth an actual buy in a long while: This 4 disc releases features both interviews SMV conducted with Chris Hero the first in 2003 and the latest in 2011. There is a combined 7.5 hours of in-depth discussion with Chris talking about all aspects of his career. The second interview was conducted by one of Chris' best friends, Rob Naylor. http://smartmarkvideo.com/chris-hero-dvd-i...hero-story.html There's also a deluxe edition that includes matches: http://smartmarkvideo.com/chris-hero-dvd-i...xe-edition.html Part way into this & it's been awesome so far. Amused that early on in the shoot Hero admits himself that he'd basicly drag matches out longer then need be just for his own amusement which had been a big criticism of mine about his work for a while. Also got a kick out of him name droping Jeff Lynch. 4 hours just covering IWA MS, Chikara & CZW with another 3 & 1/2 hours to go. Makes Bull Pain sound like the scariest man alive, Quackenbush sound like the biggest douche bag alive and Justice Pain sound like the worst wrestler to have ever lived Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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