A thread in which Dylan compares various wrestlers to HHH

[Al]

I think mentioning the soap opera actor turned challenge eater brings this thread full circle. (And I love Richman's show.)

[Marty]

I wouldn't touch HHH's overcooked shit for anything.

I don't think anything was more overcooked than Hell In A Cell 2004. Makes me think that even if all Kevin Nash could do is put bread in a toaster, he wouldn't leave it in for 20 minutes.

 

Back on topic, my second request (Loss made a good analogy earlier, so I'll try to stick with guys who've had some main event time):

- Otto Wanz

- One Man Gang

- Bruiser Brody

[jdw]

Yeah... Brody is the perfect one to get the thread back on track.

 

John

[El-P]

Well, since I'm at it :

 

_Carl Oulette

[Dylan Waco]

Ron Killings

 

I almost feel morally obligated to take R-Truth since I think his current gimmick is a Vince/Trip vision of how all black males act brought to life. I actually think Truth's minstrel show gimmick is sort of perversely entertaining and embarrassing in the same way early DX skits were, but that's besides the point. His TNA character/mic work smokes anything HHH has ever done. In the ring? Well I struggle to think of things Truth was involved in that I really liked. I think he's a pretty mediocre wrestler, nor more or less talented than HHH perhaps, but even on the off chances when he got paired with a guy who could theoretically guide him to something really good I don't remember getting anything really good. Over all I might take Truth if for no other reason than because him trying to pass the mic to Vince for a "What's Up?" is one of the five funniest things I've ever seen in wrestling. But in the ring I have to go Trip.

 

Terry Taylor

 

Taylor was a blind, lifeless vacuum, who has been overrated by peers and a certain section of the smark community so he is a good comparison to Trip. I also don't think it's a favorable one. Taylor has had some lengthy matches that will put you to sleep, but none that make you want to die inside the way a bad lengthy Trip match does. More to the point, Taylor could have a lengthy match with someone like Flair that didn't feel like an ego exercise. I honestly can't imagine HHH going twenty minutes with the Blue Blazer in MSG and having an interesting compelling match. He'd be too pissed he was on first for starters, but secondly I don't think he had the tools. Which is really the point - Taylor had more tools. He didn't always apply them but unlike HHH he wasn't a one trick pony that had to rely purely on bumps to overcome the fact that he was a boring fuck. I also think the Taylor Mad Man was a much more interesting version of Jean Paul Lesveque character than was Jean Paul Lesveque. Plus Taylor had the greatest WCW match of all time according to one of the great internet wrestling fans in history.

 

Plowboy Frazier

 

No clue when the last time I saw a Plowboy Frazier match was. No way I could dream of being fair here.

 

Greg Gagne

 

This isn't close, it's Greg in an epic ass beating. This is basically a contest between guy most wrongly accused of benefiting from nepotism and guy most rightly accused of benefiting from nepotism. The better head to head comparison would be Zbyszko but I assume every one knows that Larry Z is several thousand times better than HHH so that isn't on the table. You can make criticisms of Greg. He moved around the ring strangely at times. His punches could look really bad at times. His fired up posturing looks really dated with 2012 eyes. But the guy could work. He was actually a pretty excellent tag worker to be frank and the High Flyers were bigger stars on their own that meant more to business in the AWA than HHH ever was in the WWE and no I'm not kidding. Was very effective as both a FIP and a hot tag. Had a badass fucking leg lock that he would do with a bridge which is one of my favorite random moves any 80's dude does. Was not as good a singles worker, but was still better than HHH. I honestly don't think HHH would have had matches nearly as good with Hennig, Slaughter or even Pat Tanaka as what Greg had in the AWA, because HHH needed tricks and "big time feel!" to get him through virtually every really goo match he was ever in. Honestly I can't think of HHH ever doing anything as boss as Greg diving onto Adnan's arm in the Cage.

 

John Nord

 

Hmm. Nord was a better working Brody, but with about one tenth the charisma and presence of the original. HHH was a worse working Jimmy Garvin, but with about one tenth the charisma and presence of the original. I will say that HHH's strengths are bumping and bleeding and while he might bleed better than Nord no way in hell he bumps better. Nord was kind of a bump freak for a guy that big. On the other hand I can't think of any really good Nord match and the motherfucker could botch some simple ass spots if he really got moving. If someone could point me to a good string of Nord matches I could be convinced to go with him since he made a more convincing Viking Royal.

 

Ted Dibiase Jr.

 

Tough because Dibiase feels like a guy who may eventually put the pieces together. I have seen performances from him in the last couple of years where he seemed to be on the right track, but he is young and not really being put in a position to learn much, so who knows. I can't really advocate for him over HHH at this point, but it's more of an "incomplete" than a "failure."

 

Cody Rhodes

 

This is another tough one. I actually think Cody has a lot of the pitfalls of HHH. They both can be boring as piss in a match and struggle to fill times. Cody has better "neat spots" and I think in a tv setting at least is FAR more likely to have a nifty performance, though like HHH I think that is largely dependent on his opponent guiding him. HHH doesn't do anything as stupid as Cody's moonsault press as heel transition move spot, nor was any HHH rambling promo as embarrassingly shitty as face mask/comic book villian Cody promos which are literally my least favorite promos in the history of wrestling. Cody has slid into a spot semi-similar to HHH in the sense that he has worked the fringes of the main event and seems competent though not exemplary in that spot. Cody as traditional mid-carder is hit and miss, but more hits than HHH. Cody by a hair.

 

Chavo Guerrero Jr.

 

This isn't close. I think Chavo is really underrated by a lot of people. He was not as flashy or as smooth or as dynamic as his relatives, but I think he was/is better than Hector and better than Hector definitely makes you better than HHH. Really good utility guy who could be used all over cards against all sorts of people. Granted he couldn't carry the awful Sin Cara, but I blame HHH because Mistico was his project. One of Rey's better opponents, had a run in 08 ECW that was really awesome, excelled in tags, can work babyface or heel effectively, sells well, bumps very well, has good offense, et. Another guy who was a much better tv match wrestler than HHH too.

 

Harry Smith

 

I actually think Smith is very talented, but he clearly hasn't put it all together yet and I can't see how you can rate a guy like him over HHH. I almost wish he would go to Europe or somewhere where he could use his catch stuff more in his matches.

 

Justin Credible

 

Ah the other top heel of 2000, who could give long crowd killing promos and turned a shit load of my friends against wrestling forever. I actually think I have a more visceral hatred for Credible from that particular era, but I find it hard to argue that HHH was better. Credible was an even better bumper than HHH. His series against Mikey and Lynn were really good. I can't see anyway HHH could have had the sort of matches Credible had with Oulette and Sasuke even if I don't like those matches as much as others. Strangely Credible worked his prime in ECW and was less reliant on gimmicks and props in his matches than HHH. I almost wish I could conceive of an argument for HHH here but I can't

[FLIK]

Can't wait to read about how Gordon Ramsey's been using his backstage politicking to hold down other chefs.

Wouldn't surprise me, he's a glorified stunt man who doesn't know how to work anyways.

[goodhelmet]

And yes... Loss, Jerome and I need to stop before we thread dirft Dylan's topic... and Will runs in to smack us down.

 

John

This makes no sense. It's Loss's board.

[Dylan Waco]

Tony St. Clair

 

I have not seen THAT much St. Clair. But I did think he was really good working with Funk when I watched there match from 93 recently and I can recall other matches where I thought he added things that helped the match a great deal. I would want to watch more St. Clair to say for sure, but I would certainly lean toward him.

 

Mark Rocco

 

Rocco has aged poorly for me, but here's the thing - he was still better than HHH. Still moved around the ring sharply, could deliver neat tricks of the trade in the right setting, worked tighter than HHH, et. I still like that one DK match a lot, which is rare for a DK match. If I was judging purely based on Black Tiger I might take HHH, but Rocco's WoS stuff is enough to put him above Trip.

 

Steve Wright

 

Another guy I would need to watch more of BUT this is a guy that had a match I fucking loved with Tiger Mask. When has HHH ever had a match like that with a comparably inferior wrestler? Offhand I'm not sure if HHH has a single match that would make my top 30 in WWE history despite having huge advantages and tons of opportunities. The one match I would even consider is a match I love primarily because of the finish and the work of is opponent. I can't remember where I had Wright v. TM for the NJPW Set but it was near the top 30. And that is all Wright being the man.

 

Cien Caras

Canek

Rayo de Jalisco, Jr.

Blue Demon, Jr.

 

Would need to watch more of all of them. I like Canek a fair amount and think Caras is sort of the anti-HHH (well maybe Aguayo would be a better pick) in that he was a guy panned as a shit wrestler, which leads to arguments that he really wasn't that big of a draw by Meltzerian disciples, whereas Trip is a guy who has a peak people remember fondly, and some people pretend he was a huge draw because of when his peak was. I have seen enough Caras to think he was competent though. Really the point is that I need to see more lucha (which is what I mostly watch as is these days).

 

Nobuhiko Takada

 

I am willing to say Takada was better, but I really don't think it's by a large margin. I really hated most of Takada's junior stuff on the NJPW set. When you hid him in tag matches he was far better. I have not watched much of the UWFI in a long time, but I was never as big a fan of him there as some others. Definitely came across as a lazy turd a lot of the times and I don't think he was a very convincing wrestler for a guy who was working a "shooter" gimmick or whatever the fuck.

 

Minoru Suzuki

 

He certainly does "menacing facial expressions" better than HHH. Posturing is better than HHH too. Has more interesting offense. I would not want to watch a career retrospective, but you can cherry pick matches of his from year to year that are enjoyable and where he adds a lot to the match. I would rather take a chance on a Suzuki match than a HHH match.

 

Minoru Tanaka

 

Everyone thought he was the shit during the dark years where the wrestling World was falling apart. I have not thought much about him or watched him much in close to a decade. I cannot imagine thinking he was worse than HHH though.

 

Koji Kanemoto

 

I can't think of a single thing HHH does half as good. Kanemoto is a better veteran douche, better offense, sells better, better pacing, better ring movements, more good matches, more good matches against variety of opponents, better average match, takes better bumps, better facial expressions, better match in mid-90's WCW with Alex Wright. By every metric he is better.

 

Dick Vriji

 

Would need to see more, as I honestly can't recall seeing much. I know I have seen at least one match from RINGS, probably more.

[El-P]

Justin Credible

 

Ah the other top heel of 2000, who could give long crowd killing promos and turned a shit load of my friends against wrestling forever. I actually think I have a more visceral hatred for Credible from that particular era, but I find it hard to argue that HHH was better. Credible was an even better bumper than HHH. His series against Mikey and Lynn were really good. I can't see anyway HHH could have had the sort of matches Credible had with Oulette and Sasuke even if I don't like those matches as much as others. Strangely Credible worked his prime in ECW and was less reliant on gimmicks and props in his matches than HHH. I almost wish I could conceive of an argument for HHH here but I can't

Looking back at this period in retrospect, I don't understand this Credible hate at all, and most of it seems to be people working themselves up against the guy. He didn't give long promos in the ring. He was a bad promo, but it wasn't cutting HHH's long monologue style that would kill a crowd. He was pushed as the main event only during the last 7 months of the promotion, and probably solely because Mike Awesome suddenly left. I do think the Impact Players would have stayed together quite longer if Storm hadn't left. I thought he did more than a decent job working on top of a dying promotion with no star power left anyway. Solid worker, really good bumper, probably safe to work with. Like you said, not overly reliable on gimmicks despite the style of the company. Really, what was there to hate ? The name was stupid, the promos weren't good, the look was kinda nondescript, but Credible always came off to me as a good guy who worked hard and did his best with the position he was put into. And yes, he's better than HHH, easily.

[El-P]

I won't even comment on Takada because it's beating on a dead horse at this point. Takada = great worker.

 

Minoru Suzuki

 

He certainly does "menacing facial expressions" better than HHH. Posturing is better than HHH too. Has more interesting offense. I would not want to watch a career retrospective, but you can cherry pick matches of his from year to year that are enjoyable and where he adds a lot to the match. I would rather take a chance on a Suzuki match than a HHH match.

I've not seen that much of comeback Suzuki, but young Suzuki in the second UWF trumps HHH seven ways to sunday.

 

Minoru Tanaka

 

Everyone thought he was the shit during the dark years where the wrestling World was falling apart. I have not thought much about him or watched him much in close to a decade. I cannot imagine thinking he was worse than HHH though.

Tanaka may have become lazy in New Japan, I can't judge as I haven't seen that much of that period save for a few HEAT matches, but before that, the guy was superb. Terrific worker. Plus he married Yumi Fukawa, so he's better than all of us.

[rainmakerrtv]

John Nord

 

Hmm. Nord was a better working Brody, but with about one tenth the charisma and presence of the original. HHH was a worse working Jimmy Garvin, but with about one tenth the charisma and presence of the original. I will say that HHH's strengths are bumping and bleeding and while he might bleed better than Nord no way in hell he bumps better. Nord was kind of a bump freak for a guy that big. On the other hand I can't think of any really good Nord match and the motherfucker could botch some simple ass spots if he really got moving. If someone could point me to a good string of Nord matches I could be convinced to go with him since he made a more convincing Viking Royal.

I really enjoyed his tag run in Mid South with Jake Roberts and I liked what he brought to those matches. Be damned if I could name a stand out singles match of his, though.

[Matt D]

Nord/Bulldog from one of the 1991 WWF UK shows is WELL worth watching. The thing with Nord is that he had a pretty amazing offense (both in variety and believability) for a WWF heel at the time. I bet there are some really good Nord/Hart matches too.

[Loss]

Seems like I've heard of some Nord matches from All Japan that are well-received (I'm guessing for reasons that don't have much to do with him).

 

*checks*

 

Yep:

 

01/30/94 Hansen & Nord & P Williams vs. Williams & Slinger & Gunn ***

02/06/94 Hansen & nord & Costello vs. Kawada & Taue & Omori ***1/2

02/27/94 Hansen & Nord & Van Dam vs. Misawa & Kobashi & Akiyama ***

 

Nord is the Mid South Barbarian, correct? If so, he had a handful of really strong matches where he's being carried, but isn't useless. I wouldn't put him ahead of HHH, but he wasn't terrible.

[Matt D]

I've seen a lot of 85 Nord and I've seen a lot of 91-2 Nord and he had it way more together in 91.

[El-P]

I seem to remember a fun John Nord vs Barbarian match on Nitro sometime. I think I've seen Nord have a good match with Snuka in 1991, and that was Nord's doing. He's a guy I wish would have recieved a bigger push somewhere.

[goc]

Nord was probably ready for a decent push around the time he showed up on Nitro, but you could say that for a lot of WCW guys during that period.

[Loss]

WCW really needed young heavyweights that could work in the Nitro era and didn't have too many.

[JerryvonKramer]

I read earlier that he went on a big winning streak in WCW, is that right?

[El-P]

Nord ? I don't think so. It was Brian Clark (Wrath/Adam Bomb) who did. Maybe Nord had a big wining streak on Saturday Night though.

[Matt D]

Neither here nor there but the Nord shoot interview is one of the very best I ever heard.

[Victator]

Nord had a really fun Worldwide match with Roadblock.

[S.L.L.]

Cien Caras

Canek

Rayo de Jalisco, Jr.

Blue Demon, Jr.

 

Would need to watch more of all of them. I like Canek a fair amount and think Caras is sort of the anti-HHH (well maybe Aguayo would be a better pick) in that he was a guy panned as a shit wrestler, which leads to arguments that he really wasn't that big of a draw by Meltzerian disciples, whereas Trip is a guy who has a peak people remember fondly, and some people pretend he was a huge draw because of when his peak was. I have seen enough Caras to think he was competent though. Really the point is that I need to see more lucha (which is what I mostly watch as is these days).

Rayo has the same anti-HHH thing that Caras does. Caras is definitely a better brawler than HHH, and a more compelling main event star. More convincing working the gritty tough guy gimmick, and more entertaining as well. Better expressions even when he had a mask. Rayo is a more charismatic and entertaining performer than HHH. For guys with a lot of silly signature spots, Rayo's are probably sillier, but they're also worked into his matches better and can be pretty fun. His offense is better, with even some of the goofier stuff looking high-impact, and he moves around very fluidly. Rayo also smokes HHH for longevity as a quality performer. I've seen quality work from him as recently as 2010. And well, for a guy so reliant on the "big match feel" to cover up his shortcomings, HHH has never had as big (or as good) of a "big match" as Rayo vs. Cien mask vs. mask. I would put both of those guys comfortably ahead of him.

 

Canek is tricky because footage of his prime is sparse even by 80's lucha standards, and his his post-prime was shit. The "received wisdom" with him was that he was a good worker, but not an elite one, and from what I've seen, I don't really doubt that. Still, there is something to be said for the fact that he was not only one of the few guys on the 80's New Japan set to have a good match with Tiger Mask, but possibly the only one to actually coax a decent performance from the guy instead of just hiding how much he sucked. Also, I think anyone who slammed Andre should be considered better than HHH until proven otherwise.

 

I've seen Blue Demon Jr. have flashes of competence but...yeah, that dude is pretty terrible. I think HHH goes 1 for 3 here, with Canek being undecided.

[rainmakerrtv]

So I guess the final word on Nord is that, while he wasn't quite better than Triple H, people seem to like him more.

[Matt D]

Due to the scathing cooking analogy we can't really compare them.

[Loss]

I guess I deserved that.

 

I have no problem with anyone comparing them. I just hope it's not completely written off that wrestling decent 7-minute undercard matches is very easy compared to trying to work a really good 30-minute main event. As long as that's considered, so be it.