Matt D Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 I kind of want to make an argument for Mike Shaw based on his Makhan Singh run. I won't, but I kind of want to. And I think Ron Bass is fairly underrated too. That might be a better argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 And I think Ron Bass is fairly underrated too. Actually, so do I. People don't recall how fucking OVER he was when he turned face in Crockett and feuded w/ JJ, Bart, and Landell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Otto Wanz I have more respect for buying the AWA title from Verne, than fucking daughter of promoter, even if it is a far shittier business move. Wanz was actually a pretty agile fat man. I've only seen a handful of his matches and his rep isn't very good. But German PN News sure seems like it would be more fun to watch than HHH if nothing else. One Man Gang Come on this is Gang in a cakewalk. Dude was really fucking good in his prime. Total bump machine for a guy his size and he could goofball it with the best of them but without cheapening his status as a huge fat guy that could crush you like a bug. Even post-prime in the WWF and even ECW he could add a lot to his matches. I'd probably go out of my way to see an OMG match right now actually. Also not sure Akeem gimmick was more racist than HHH in blackface, but it was a more effective use of the over the top racial nonsense and more sustained, which means HHH may not have the natural edge even via the metric of amusingly offensive stuff. Bruiser Brody Eh, fuck Brody. The best part of his act was his entrance. Once in a while he would surprise you with a performance where he gave a little, but if you are going to be an overrated, politicker, with over inflated sense of importance, and tendency to bury guys, I would prefer you at least bump a little in the ring. Carl Oulette I love Oulette as he is a fat guy with crazy offense. Yeah he was chinlocky as hell at times, but the one time he got a chance to main event he was pretty awesome and had a match about as good as any HHH match I've ever seen. Really awesome highspots of course and also a crazed bumper. Would have liked to see him get more of a chance in a setting where I could see what kind of brawler he was, but I see no real argument for HHH being better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 I kind of want to make an argument for Mike Shaw based on his Makhan Singh run. I won't, but I kind of want to. He was a far, far better heel in a way that HHH and his delusional, fake "I'm the new Flair/Race" pose could never approach in a million years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 I am more impressed by a guy who can work ten good tv matches, with ten different guys, none of them getting more than ten minutes than I am by a guy that goes 1/4 or even 2/4 in terms of delivering quality, lengthy, "big show" matches. Ergo, if Big Show worked ten good TV matches with ten different guys and with none of them getting more than ten minutes, he would be the best wrestler ever. Also: Santino Marella Vladimir Kozlov Kid Kash Roderick Strong Jack Evans Alex Shelley Jimmy Garvin (mostly because I'm curious as to why you think HHH is a poor man's version of him...yeah, Garvin is obviously better, but I don't see the similarities) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Jimmy Garvin (mostly because I'm curious as to why you think HHH is a poor man's version of him...yeah, Garvin is obviously better, but I don't see the similarities) High knee ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Bruiser Brody Eh, fuck Brody. The best part of his act was his entrance. Once in a while he would surprise you with a performance where he gave a little, but if you are going to be an overrated, politicker, with over inflated sense of importance, and tendency to bury guys, I would prefer you at least bump a little in the ring. I'd argue that bumping is pretty much the only thing HHH does better here. Brody's a more dynamic promo, more charismatic, better look, better tag wrestler, much better strikes. He's believable as a legit badass, as opposed to Trips who sometimes looks more like a bodybuilding cosplayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Trip sells better than Brody. Trip shows more ass than Brody. Trip makes his opponents look better than Brody. Yeah... it's a really bad sign for Brody when he's *worse* than Trip in things that are a *weakness* of Trip's. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'd still rather watch Brody stiff the shit out of jobbers than anything HHH did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Brody had good strikes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 I'd still rather watch Brody stiff the shit out of jobbers than anything HHH did. Trip tripping on the ballons is far more entertaining than anything Brody did. John Brody had good strikes? I did not want to touch that one... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Come on this is Gang in a cakewalk Did you just hear that loud bang? That was the sound of Scott Keith's head exploding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Man, I dare you to watch every available piece of Otto Wanz footage on the Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Man, I dare you to watch every available piece of Otto Wanz footage on the Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Buff Bagwell I think this is fairly lateral, though Bagwell's reliance on female relative to get him out of working hard was really misapplied relative to HHH's similar efforts. Bagwell's early babyface work was actually pretty good and a lot better than HHH's early work. I really enjoyed him as Scorpio's uncool white friend trying to act hip to black culture and failing miserably albeit in a lovable way. As Buff he was basically HHH level worker without the push. I can envision Buff having perfectly fun matches with Foley for example, but it wouldn't be because of Buff, though Buff's taunts and schtick were considerably better than HHH's so maybe he would have added a bit more. I think I will take Buff by a hair because his double fisting of Coors Lights in a local high school gym the last time I saw him work was the highlight of the night. Nicolai Volkoff Volkoff was pretty bad. I struggle to think of anything he did well. Russian National Anthem bit > water spitting though. David Flair I actually saw a couple of USA pro shows where Flair looked respectable. I mean HHH was clearly better, but Flair's suplex was better and I think he might have turned into a pretty good chickenshit heel if he hadn't been such an embarrassment out of the gates. Tatanka Already covered. Wahoo McDaniel (you clearly hate him since you showed no love towards the Manny strap match so compare that strap match to the Rock strap match) Even in the overrated strap match with Manny, Wahoo showed more than HHH and he was decades past his prime. Wahoo is one of those guys like Tommy Rich that is almost certainly a top 100 all time worker though there is not as much footage as you would hope to support it. Stiffest, toughest, grittiest guy ever. Even years past his prime those Manny matches and matches with Curt were really good. And that Bock match is soooo fucking good. I literally don't think HHH could ever dream of having a match that awesome. I would kill to find the treasure trove of Wahoo matches, I would rather be killed than go back and watch big chunks of HHH's career. Rhino Strange case of a guy who peaked early. If ECW had stayed open I suspect Rhino might have actually turned into a really good wrestler. As it stood he was remarkably good at working these four-seven minutes sprints where he would give his opponents enough and then cut them off with some really vicious looking move. This carried over into the early parts of his WWE run too. Very underrated as a base. He really didn't look out of place v. really good wrestlers even if he was always a passenger. He fizzled out and has been a whole lot of nothing for years, but I like the best period of Rhino better than the best period of HHH Ultimate Warrior HHH is better, but the urgency and excitement Warrior could bring to matches is something HHH has never really had. Warrior getting blown up seconds into half of his matches is worse than HHH not being able to work compelling control segments to save his life. I do like delusional Warrior promos better, than delusional HHH promos though. Charlie Haas Already covered. Shelton Benjamin Already covered. Leo Burke (for Dave Musgrave) We have enough Leo to know that he was a very good wrestler. Really good at controlling a match, selling and working from defensive position. Even well past his prime Leo in the Maritimes was still a very good hand that could have fun studio matches every time out. I also am a mark for journeyman types and while Leo was an ace in the Maritimes and elsewhere at points, the novelty of watching him work "fun" matches is something HHH could never really replicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Nicolai Volkoff Volkoff was pretty bad. I struggle to think of anything he did well. Russian National Anthem bit > water spitting though. Going to defend Volkoff here. I'm not going to say he was a great or even very good worker. But he knew his way around the ring and when to do what. He threw a good suplex or two in addition to the backbreaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Rhino Strange case of a guy who peaked early. If ECW had stayed open I suspect Rhino might have actually turned into a really good wrestler. As it stood he was remarkably good at working these four-seven minutes sprints where he would give his opponents enough and then cut them off with some really vicious looking move. This carried over into the early parts of his WWE run too. Very underrated as a base. He really didn't look out of place v. really good wrestlers even if he was always a passenger. He fizzled out and has been a whole lot of nothing for years, but I like the best period of Rhino better than the best period of HHH Rhino, like a lot of folks, was never the same after neck surgery, and you have to think working ECW and doing the gore as much as he did, he would have eventually needed the surgery even if ECW never went out of business (and at least being in WWF, he worked somewhere that would actually PAY for the neck surgery). I think Rhino was doomed no matter what, as were so many late 90's workers by the style becoming so crazy. A few more guys: Robbie Eagle/The Stro Lance Storm Devon Storm/Crowbar 911 The Blue Meanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Brody had good strikes? I did not want to touch that one... John I always thought they looked fine. Hey, there's a thread idea: one in which we go into super-detailed discussion of strikes, and what makes them "look good" and why. That rarely gets discussed, it usually goes no deeper than "Lawler has better punches than anyone else on the WWE roster" which, while true, isn't very helpful for explaining exactly how that is so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Stevie Ray Terrible wrestler. Possibly my pick for worst of all time, setting aside your obvious freakshows and maybe Abyss. I mean the Pedigree is a relatively easy move to make look good as HHH has proved. How the fuck do you fuck it up? Steve McMichael Mongo wasn't very good, but he might have been okay with time. There were things he did okay in the ring and I think as a heel he understood the basic concepts of what he was supposed to do. HHH was better for a number of reasons, but I don't think Mongo is a bottom of the barrel wrestler for whatever that is worth. Sam Houston I am actually a reasonably big fan of Houston as gangly guy falling over himself while taking and executing basic offense. He was the perfect JTTS type and truth be told I would rather watch him get whipped around the watch HHH wrestle. I am not sure he was better than HHH though. As far as guys that looked half trained and had a unique charm, Whipwreck was a lot better. I think Mikey is easily better than Trip, but not sure a poor man's Mikey is better than Trip. Johnny Gunn/Salvatore Sincere/Tom Brandi Brandi was a Z-Man clone. I am not a Z-Man fan. The Sandman Already covered. JT Smith Well I'm pretty much the World's biggest J.T. Smith fan. In the early days of ECW he was always willing to work hard, take lunatic bumps, bring some fun offense, et. By the time the FBI kicked off he was an incredibly entertaining promo. Unlike HHH's body Michaels, his "he's supposed to suck!" gimmick was real and not something apologists tossed up to defend the fading talents of their hero. Was really good at working Southern tag formula with the FBI, or a more high spot heavy style. I liked his feud with Hack Myers a lot. His run was really short. Not even four years really. And he lacks the epic matches and the week to week tv to fill the void. There is no way in hell that I can put HHH over Smith, but I can't really justify putting J.T. over him either. Butch Reed Already covered. George South South is one of my favorite jobbers. Even now I really enjoy watching him heel little kids and call them ugly before parading around in his Jesus Reigns underwear to confused looks from the locals. He had one Flair tv match that really made me believe and it wasn't all Flair. I've seen him live enough times over the years to appreciate him on a level beyond just fun jobber, but I've also seen him shit it up something fierce. HHH begrudgingly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Brody had good strikes? I did not want to touch that one... John I always thought they looked fine. Hey, there's a thread idea: one in which we go into super-detailed discussion of strikes, and what makes them "look good" and why. That rarely gets discussed, it usually goes no deeper than "Lawler has better punches than anyone else on the WWE roster" which, while true, isn't very helpful for explaining exactly how that is so. Yeah, I sometimes wonder what exactly separates good strikes from bad ones. Like, Shawn Michaels apparently has the worst chops ever even though they always looked fine to me. I've also heard people say that Bret Hart's punches sucked because he stomped his foot when he threw them even though Lawler did the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Have we had Iron Sheik yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 This is the most fun thread in a long while. I'll throw in some random candidates : Jacques Rougeau Raymond Rougeau Brian Blair EZ Money Shinzei Shinzaki Maxx Payne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I can't access the last page at work for some reason. There has to be some dubious content there. I knew I wanted to talk about Volkoff a little but there was someone else I wanted to as well when I read it before I left this morning. Wait, it was Warrior! Volkoff, first. I like him quite a bit in mid-south. There was an air of athletic legitimacy to him that the WWF never played up but that fit right in in Watts' country. I think he and Darsow had good feuds with Magnum and Wrestling II and the RnRs. I loathe 1985 NWA Russians squashes. They're the most long and tedious things ever, which made no sense with the gimmick. I much prefer Volkoff and Darsow mid south squashes. (Long-form matches are probably another story). The press slam into the back breaker was actually a pretty huge move for 1984. The spin-kick was awesome and I think we just haven't seen enough stuff of his from the 70s. Also, it always amazes me how over he was in 1990 WWF as a face after the turn. I swear he was the #3 or #4 face during that summer. Ok Warrior. I think there's an argument here. I think HHH GETS IT better than Warrior does. He instinctively understands wrestling on a higher level, even if I think his ego drives him to ignore a lot of what he probably knows. He probably does little things better. Warrior, however, is so underrated at taking direction. A lot of his big matches were either super scripted or he was led by the nose in them, but they stand out as being pretty good. It comes back to one of those more fundamental issues we deal with all the time: Do you judge the match or do you judge the wrestler? By being so well-managed Warrior ends up having a number of good matches. By not managing himself well, HHH has a ton of stinkers. In this situation, having less talent almost works in Warrior's favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 To add to that just a little, Rude/Warrior at Summerslam '89 is arguably better than any HHH match that has ever happened. I realize that Rude was the one directing traffic and doing the heavy lifting in that match -- to a point where it's one of the best one-man shows in wrestling history -- but Warrior was a more-than-capable passenger in that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Warrior vs Savage from Mania VII is also (way, way) better than any HHH match. Probably Warrior vs Hogan from VI as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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