Brock is back

[El-P]

Most probably. Brock apparently got an insane amount of money and will work a light schedule. And you thought people got mad at the Rock for getting a big paycheck ?

[goc]

Most probably. Brock apparently got an insane amount of money and will work a light schedule. And you thought people got mad at the Rock for getting a big paycheck ?

Well I think he'll actually be around more this year than The Rock was over the past year. I just think they will find out with him, kind of like they did with Rock's ratings on Raw and the Survivor Series buyrate, that there is no quick fix.

[Kostka]

To the Cena heel turn people, how is this really all that different from Cena vs another babyface + crowd or hometown heel that has been the booking structure for Cenas character since 2006?

[rovert]

Really wish Hall of Pain era Mark Henry was still around. Him and Brock would have been a piece of business. Also it is a same there isnt that much stream on Ziggler and Swagger.

[FLIK]

didn't like wrestling and quit because he was fed up and didn't care, and never drew a dime back then. Then he went to New Japan and stuck up the joint there.

I was amused by Alvarez arguing things would be diffrent and he'll be motivated now because he's back in WWE instead of just Japan.

 

It's been how many years since he worked a match ?

Mid 2007 vs Angle was his last one.

[Matt D]

Really wish Hall of Pain era Mark Henry was still around. Him and Brock would have been a piece of business. Also it is a same there isnt that much stream on Ziggler and Swagger.

Did you see the match vs Cena?

[El-P]

I was amused by Alvarez arguing things would be diffrent and he'll be motivated now because he's back in WWE instead of just Japan.

Oh man... He made shitload of money, he's banged up and he's 34, I doubt he'll kill himslef to have good matches like he did in 2003.

 

Mid 2007 vs Angle was his last one.

Hum... If they lean toward Rock vs Brock next year at Mania, it will be very interesting to see how they will handle Brock in the meantime. I guess they should build to Brock vs Cena at SummerSlam then go into Brock vs Rock.

[Ricky Jackson]

http://blogs.thescore.com/aftermath/2012/0...n-cartoon-form/

[Ricky Jackson]

To the Cena heel turn people, how is this really all that different from Cena vs another babyface + crowd or hometown heel that has been the booking structure for Cenas character since 2006?

It's not really the booking, although by going from Rock to Brock, Cena is basically facing the two top babyfaces (based on crowd reaction) in wrestling back to back. I think two things are happening that make this different: 1) The usual 50-50 (give or take) crowd split has been slowly moving towards a consistent boo-majority for a while now, and I don't think it's only because of Cena being programmed against the Rock. I think the momentum isn't going to be reversed, and I get the sense WWE knows it's futile to resit it any longer. I also don't expect a traditional "heel turn" moment in the short term, but I may be wrong. 2) More importantly for me was Cena's promo on Raw. The tone was different, with Cena coming off more like a whiner, or at least not very sympathetic, and the whole "Will I turn heel now? Nah, I don't want to give you the satisfaction" bit came off pretty heelish, but not in the traditional sense. And Brock coming out at the end totally felt like a heel getting what he deserved moment rather than a babyface being attacked by a monster moment. I think we are going to see Cena booked increasingly like a doucebag in his promos in the coming weeks.

 

Who knows, I could be reading way to much into this. Maybe I just think it's cool that Cena finally turned heel by NOT turning heel. We'll see.

[KrisZ]

Dave on Brock

 

For all the talk of UFC and WWE not being competition, this is a blow to the average early 20s fan who started with WWE, moved out for UFC, where Lesnar became the biggest star, and now he’s in WWE. Both companies are star-driven businesses and while wins and losses are part of the story, being a star supercedes wins and losses. The fact is, to all but the hardcore audience, it is the UFC’s biggest star coming to WWE. When it comes to which one is cool right now, it’s actually a significant shift, although with WWE booking and UFC having several big matches over the summer, that also could be temporary. I don’t think a lot of people fully understood how important Lesnar was to UFC’s growth, particularly in the U.S., and bringing in an audience that they otherwise wouldn’t have had. At the same time, while UFC is not a one man promotion and losing one guy isn’t a killer, losing Lesnar is a significant blow to the casual audience. Plus, in fantasy wrestling, he can be the character people want him to be, without age, and athletic skills diminishing with diverticulitis and injuries making him less than a top guy.

[goc]

Yes, Brock had a lot of wrestling fans who followed him over to UFC to watch how a pro wrestler would do in real fights. But I see no reason to believe these same people are going to follow him back and see his WWE PPVs do anywhere close to his UFC ones.

[Al]

It seems ridiculous to say wins and losses don't matter in UFC. Not only is it a sport, it's a combat sport. And you can't send a guy into fights over and over to get his ass kicked, no matter how charismatic he is. And the fans won't buy it anyway. The inherit advantage of pro wrestling is that you can work around a guy's injuries.

[anarchistxx]

. The fact is, to all but the hardcore audience, it is the UFC’s biggest star coming to WWE. When it comes to which one is cool right now, it’s actually a significant shift,

From my local experience this is true. The turn started with The Rock coming in; people my age (20-23) began to watch as a nostalgia exercise, and those who already watched became a lot more open about discussing it. Facebook statuses on Sunday/Monday were all about Rock/Cena from a lot of people I know, and also about the Lesnar debut. These people either didn't watch from 2002-2011 and came back once they hit their early twenties and the buzz around Rock/Cena started, or watched on the quiet and the fact that they're more vocal about it now shows that WWE is possibly coming back into the mainstream.

 

Most of these people will watch streams as well, so the trend may not necessarily show in ratings or buys.

 

I don't they'll ever replicate the boom but they're in a very strong position now to gain momentum. To sustain it they'll need a couple of people to step up as serious breakout stars (to build the fresh, exciting matches with the old marquee names like Rock, Trips, Taker and Lesnar). CM Punk showed he possibly could last summer, yet he's stalled a little. Danielson probably won't become the mainstream star they're looking for. It's probably too late for Orton, who could do to take time off and change his character up on his return, him against Rock or Lesnar would have seemed like a huge match a few years ago.

[ohtani's jacket]

It seems ridiculous to say wins and losses don't matter in UFC. Not only is it a sport, it's a combat sport. And you can't send a guy into fights over and over to get his ass kicked, no matter how charismatic he is. And the fans won't buy it anyway. The inherit advantage of pro wrestling is that you can work around a guy's injuries.

Sakuraba's brain says hi.

[Bob Morris]

I think the issues that really need to be questioned regarding Lesnar's return have nothing to do with Lesnar himself.

 

Wasn't his last run a case of where WWE Creative didn't have a clue how to properly book him?

 

Sure, one can bring up Triple H and his power trip, but I'm pretty sure if you removed that from the equation, you still have a WWE Creative team that has no clue how to book Lesnar.

 

So what makes anyone think things will be different this time around, when WWE Creative has shown it has no clue how to book Rock, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan or just about anyone else they've had some "hot moment" come along and then failed to capitalize on?

 

As long as WWE Creative continues to do a piss-poor job of booking, I have no reason to believe ANYBODY who comes along to WWE is going to turn things around.

 

By all means, feel free to get excited about Lesnar's return, but don't expect it to mean WWE Creative gets its collective heads out of its asses and learn to properly book.

[Log]

By all means, feel free to get excited about Lesnar's return, but don't expect it to mean WWE Creative gets its collective heads out of its asses and learn to properly book.

WWE Creative really cares about me. Sometimes they just have a hard time showing it. I know they've let me down all those times before, but this time is going to be different. They've changed. Really.

 

This? Oh, I fell down. I'm so clumsy sometimes.

[Loss]

Maybe someone can explain this to me. Most people around here think Dave's "pro wrestling and MMA are the same business" point of view is wrong. So how can those who think it's wrong expect Brock to draw because of his MMA background? I'm willing to admit that this just may be me being out of touch, but if the WON didn't tell me Brock had been a success in UFC, I wouldn't know he was a success in UFC. He definitely didn't feel like an Austin/Rock type who I'd find even when I wasn't trying to watch wrestling. He got a big pop on Monday night, which I would have been like WWE and just assumed happened because he was a guy people remembered from his last run in WWE.

 

So my question is: Do you really think the WWE/UFC crossover audience is significant? Do you think they're in competition? Do you think they're the same thing? I don't, and considering how much people jump on the pro wrestling/MMA comparisons, I'm surprised that so many do. I have complete ignorance of UFC's business model, and I know it's a bigger business now than it was 15 years ago, but Ken Shamrock was a big star in UFC before coming to the WWF, and it wasn't something that got him over right away. The difference between Shamrock and Lesnar is that Lesnar was also a pro wrestling headliner.

 

So what am I missing? Is Lesnar a crossover star or a returning wrestling star? Which element is the stronger of the two?

[Frankensteiner]

Maybe someone can explain this to me. Most people around here think Dave's "pro wrestling and MMA are the same business" point of view is wrong. So how can those who think it's wrong expect Brock to draw because of his MMA background? I'm willing to admit that this just may be me being out of touch, but if the WON didn't tell me Brock had been a success in UFC, I wouldn't know he was a success in UFC. He definitely didn't feel like an Austin/Rock type who I'd find even when I wasn't trying to watch wrestling. He got a big pop on Monday night, which I would have been like WWE and just assumed happened because he was a guy people remembered from his last run in WWE.

 

So my question is: Do you really think the WWE/UFC crossover audience is significant? Do you think they're in competition? Do you think they're the same thing? I don't, and considering how much people jump on the pro wrestling/MMA comparisons, I'm surprised that so many do. I have complete ignorance of UFC's business model, and I know it's a bigger business now than it was 15 years ago, but Ken Shamrock was a big star in UFC before coming to the WWF, and it wasn't something that got him over right away. The difference between Shamrock and Lesnar is that Lesnar was also a pro wrestling headliner.

 

So what am I missing? Is Lesnar a crossover star or a returning wrestling star? Which element is the stronger of the two?

I don't know that there's a lot of crossover. But I think many WWE fans will know Lesnar was a champion (and kind of a bad ass) in a legitimate fighting sport. Thus making him a bigger a star to WWE fans than he ever was in 2002-2004.

[Victator]

I always thought Brock had drawn fairly well for the time period he was champion.

 

My eight year old asked me why Brock was a big deal. I told him he beat John Cena, The Rock, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker and Big Show. His eyes got really wide because he could not believe one man could do that.

[Frankensteiner]

If Brock had a Sid-like sabatical, that is, washed out of pro-football, went to TNA for a year before getting fired, and maybe did a couple of indy shows, there is no way he would get the kind of response he did on Monday.

[Slasher]

I always thought Brock had drawn fairly well for the time period he was champion.

 

My eight year old asked me why Brock was a big deal. I told him he beat John Cena, The Rock, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker and Big Show. His eyes got really wide because he could not believe one man could do that.

Should have added that he did all this, plus win the WWE title, the King of the Ring, the Royal Rumble and more... in only two years of service.

[FLIK]

So my question is: Do you really think the WWE/UFC crossover audience is significant? Do you think they're in competition? Do you think they're the same thing? I don't, and considering how much people jump on the pro wrestling/MMA comparisons, I'm surprised that so many do. I have complete ignorance of UFC's business model, and I know it's a bigger business now than it was 15 years ago, but Ken Shamrock was a big star in UFC before coming to the WWF, and it wasn't something that got him over right away. The difference between Shamrock and Lesnar is that Lesnar was also a pro wrestling headliner.

 

So what am I missing? Is Lesnar a crossover star or a returning wrestling star? Which element is the stronger of the two?

Well, in UFC Lesnar headlined sevral shows that did million+ buys on PPV. How much of that same audiance crosses over is a diffrent story. Personally I think the amount of ppl who're primarily WWE/wrestling fans in general who will also watch UFC and follow Lesnar over thear is bigger then the amount of fans who're mostly into UFC but will ocasionally watch wrestling but I don't think either group is that big now.

 

I agree with Meltzer's beliefe that a large chunk of UFC's audiance when they first got hot was made up of current/former disgruntled wrestling fans but that was many years ago when that happened.

 

100% think the Wrestling & MMA = same thing line is BS but I can see how both can appeal to the same crowd atleast.

[goc]

- Word is that even before Lesnar's final UFC fight with Alistair Overeem, he had a $5 million deal waiting for him with WWE. Vince McMahon was said to be agreeable on the amount, but there was a lot of negotiating before both sides agreed on the number of appearances Lesnar would be obligated to make.

If the amount is legit, I see absolutely no way they can recoup that. There is no way Brock is going to regularly bump WWE PPV buys by like 300,000+ for every PPV he's on like he did in UFC.

[MJH]

No, but they've thrown more money at people before, and I guess the idea is that they won't just recoup it through Brock (if they do), but in other avenues by the bump they hope he brings. I mean, it's not to the same extent, but I'm sure Mania 14's buyrate didn't recoup the money they spent on Tyson, but in the coverage it brought and help make Austin a bigger star, they sure did, y'know?

[Loss]

Vince's thought at that point was that whatever he paid Tyson, the extra eyeballs were worth it. "I'd rather lose money on 500,000 buys than make money on 300,000 buys" was I think his quote -- something like that.