Brock is back

[cm funk]

I always thought Brock had drawn fairly well for the time period he was champion.

He certainly didn't bomb.

 

SD's ratings actually went up when the brands split and they were doing better than RAW for a while. Ratings held fairly steady throughout Brock's run.

 

On PPV Rock-Brock did well and held as the highest non-Rumble/Mania buyrate until Hogan-HBK at SummerSlam 3 years later. He was only around for 3 SD! only PPVs and they all did solid numbers. The first SD only PPV did just below the first RAW PPV, and better than the second RAW PPV which featured the first Goldberg-HHH singles match. The next two (Brock-Taker and Brock-Eddie) did better than Armageddon 03 (Goldberg v. HHH v. Kane) which did I believe their worst # in years. I have no doubt Lesnar was a better draw than HHH during this time period, but that isn't really saying much.

 

WM19 did a disappointing #, but Hogan-McMahon and Rock-Austin were the heavily promoted matches, Angle-Lesnar was 3rd from the top.

 

I don't know the house show #'s but I believe they were depressed for both brands in '03. It wasn't until 04 when JBL was champ that SD houses really tanked.

[Bix]

FWIW, I was doing some digging and found a Meltzer post where he said 250,000 of the 600,000 buys for Lesnar's first UFC PPV were from first-time buyers.

[NintendoLogic]

Most people around here think Dave's "pro wrestling and MMA are the same business" point of view is wrong.

This strikes me as a somewhat unfair caricature of Dave's actual point, which is that MMA has become successful largely by using promoting concepts that had been successful for wrestling in the past and that modern wrestling has inexplicably abandoned.

[CodySave]

Just from what I remember, it is pretty amazing to look back on Lesnar's run to his first WWE title. Perfect combo of him not only being an incredible, awe-inspiring performer, but being presented in awesome fashion by WWE:

 

- total unknown, debuts night after Wrestlemania 18 in 2002, absolutely destroying Spike Dudley and others who were in a hardcore match. I'll note that pairing him with Heyman immediately helped him get noticed by the crowd beyond just being a total ass-kicker.

 

- Spends much of Spring just devastating super-popular Matt and Jeff Hardy, with lots of KO finishes against either guy. I can't believe the WWE hasn't done a run of KO finishes to build a monster since then (have they?). I remember a house show I went to around this time, the ref called for the bell after Lesnar just dominated Jeff Hardy with numerous high-impact moves and crowd left the building in total awe of this wrestler that had only been on TV a month or two.

 

- Wins the King of the Ring tournament in June by beating Rob Van Dam, which I remember being stunned that a guy wins the big tournament PPV main event only approximately four months into being on TV.

 

- Despite his dominance and build, I was really surprised that he won the WWE title from The Rock at Summerslam 2002, less than 6 months since his debut on WWE TV.

 

Then in October, he beats the Undertaker in his own match, Hell in a Cell.

 

And then you think about all the memorable high profile matches and moments he had in, really, just a two year run from 02-04.

 

This run is incredible when you think that the modern equivalent would be.....Ryback? Damien Sandow? Tensai? But, even they have already been on TV in the past in different gimmicks.

 

Really, the booking with Lesnar only started to get screwy late fall 2002, with the face turn and such. But the Angle-Lesnar Wrestlemania 19 match was great and Lesnar was way over at the time.

 

It's really incredible that not only did he accomplish all this, but he performed at such a high-level the whole time that he clearly not only looked like he belonged, but that he was one of the best.

[sek69]

Most people around here think Dave's "pro wrestling and MMA are the same business" point of view is wrong.

This strikes me as a somewhat unfair caricature of Dave's actual point, which is that MMA has become successful largely by using promoting concepts that had been successful for wrestling in the past and that modern wrestling has inexplicably abandoned.

 

 

I think most people realize that MMA and wrestling (and boxing too, for that matter) can all draw from the same well in terms of building a star or hyping a match. Dave loses the room when he takes that point and uses that to affirm that means they should be interchangeable, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb and/or a mark who doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

The easiest counter to his argument is that most sports (football, baseball, basketball, etc) promote their stars and big events the same way and no one tries to make the claim baseball = football or anything like that.

[FLIK]

FWIW, I was doing some digging and found a Meltzer post where he said 250,000 of the 600,000 buys for Lesnar's first UFC PPV were from first-time buyers.

Heh, I largely hate MMA & am usually bored watching it but even I went out of my way to see Lesnar's fights (and his TUF season)....until he started losing like a bitch.

 

- Spends much of Spring just devastating super-popular Matt and Jeff Hardy, with lots of KO finishes against either guy. I can't believe the WWE hasn't done a run of KO finishes to build a monster since then (have they?).

Meltzer said HHH was against it for some reason and was the one who convinced them to stop doing it with Lesnar & not to do it very much with others over the years.

[Loss]

I read Cody's post and I guess there's nothing there that tells me "incredibly talented performer", as much as "incredibly pushed performer". What were Brock's best matches en route to Summerslam?

 

And Dylan, that's the Sid comparison. Steamroller.

[goodhelmet]

I think Summerslam was when Brock turned the corner in the ring. His KOR performance was nothing to write home about. In fact, that was a horrible PPV with maybe the worst match of the decade happening on the show. When was the Bubba Dudley match?

[Dylan Waco]

Pretty sure Will and I are in major disagreement over this, but I loved the Show v. Brock sprint series

[anarchistxx]

What were Brock's best matches en route to Summerslam?

I don't think you'll find any especially great matches in that period, mostly since the majority of his outings were in only vaguely competetive squash matches. The difference (and what got a lot of people excited) was just how fun and destructive his squash matches were. The majority of squash matches in the modern era tend to be pedestrian, boring and don't really do a whole lot to get the new dominant heel over (Lord Tensai last monday for instance). Whereas Brock's were fast, and he actually looked like he was throwing these guys around violently. You bought him as the unstoppable monster.

 

Having said that, him and RVD had a surprisingly fun match at King of the Ring (but even this only went five or six minutes), and the rematch at Vengeance wasn't bad either if you ignore the terrible finish.

 

I guess whether you enjoy Lesnar's initial work comes down to whether you like wimpies. It wasn't until the Summerslam match with The Rock and the cell match with Taker where people began saying Lesnar was a top level worker in addition to being an awesome character and spectacle.

 

I don't think he's going to be anywhere near as entertaining this time around. Part of the fun was that he was so much faster and more athletic than your usual monster heel. Given he's ten years older and a whole lot less motivated, it's unlikely you'll see as much of that. If they're smart they will keep his matches short and violent and fast. If he's working face you don't want him taking offence or ten minutes, and if he's working heel he won't be able to carry a ten minute control segment.

 

Pretty sure Will and I are in major disagreement over this, but I loved the Show v. Brock sprint series

I'd agree with this. It certainly plays to the aforementioned strengths of working fast, violent athletically impressive matches. Him throwing Show around was a great spectacle and given the size of both men they didn't need to work a long match as long as they brought the bombs early. Turning him heel and having Show beat him (even with help from Heyman) was a bad idea though.

 

I don't think anyone outside of Eddie has gelled with Show as well as Brock did, the broken ring match was great too.

 

In a two year period, to have had great matches with Rock, Benoit, Undertaker, Angle (debatable for some I know) and Show is pretty impressive. The variety as styles he went up against shows what a versatile worker he was, and in there you have great WWE style main events (v Rock), violent bloodbaths (v Taker), monster heel v underdog face (v Eddie) and more 'technical' matches with plenty of reversals and submissions (v Benoit/Angle). Plus he's also having serviceable matches with a young Cena among others on TV and more minor PPVs. His resume is pretty impressive.

[goodhelmet]

Pretty sure Will and I are in major disagreement over this, but I loved the Show v. Brock sprint series

Wasn't that after Summerslam anyway?

[FLIK]

Couple random TV matches I remember liking Brock in around mid 02 was his singles vs Flair & a tag w him & Eddie vs RVD & Bubba Ray

[Kostka]

Lesnar/Angle is the only time I hated Brocks matches (mainly the godawful iron man), and that was Brock getting plugged into Angles shitty, deteriorating formula. Angle has that same match with everyone on the TNA roster every week. Brock did, however, have rockin' matches with Benoit, Taker, Guerrero, Rock, Mysterio and Big Show that I can think of offhand...probably more if someone wanted to revisit the tv from that period. Yes, he was in there with good and great workers, but that was more a smart booking means to protect him and essentuate his strengths. He was a puppy with big paws. There aren't many Lesnar vs lesser opponent matches because well, he didn't work very many of them, and when he did, they were usually squash matches built around his incredible power spots. I wouldn't call Brock a GREAT worker at any point (I'd argue he was on his way to that title and would have become great had he stuck around), but he delivered against all the marquee guys he worked programs with. Taker/Lesnar remains my favorite HIAC match of all time.

 

I do recall a surprisingly good Lesnar/Orton match from 2002 that showed that Brock COULD carry, or at least that's what I remember thinking at the time. Orton was shit in that period.

[cm funk]

Brock had the best squash matches ever

 

I never thought the guy was a great worker as much as he was just a freakish athlete who worked a high impact power style that I loved. He had good-very good matches with good workers, lots of fun squashes or glorified squashes, and I don't remember many stinkers. He wrestled for like 3 years. Vader was wrestling for 5-6 years before he really started getting good. You didn't expect Brock to be some polished superworker, but you knew when you watched him that he had limitless potential. It's a shame he didn't stick with wrestling, or we'd likely be talking about him as the best working big man ever.

 

Also, I just realized that he probably can't do his standing jump to the apron ring entrance anymore and it made me a little sad

[Victator]

I read Cody's post and I guess there's nothing there that tells me "incredibly talented performer", as much as "incredibly pushed performer". What were Brock's best matches en route to Summerslam?

 

And Dylan, that's the Sid comparison. Steamroller.

Brock vs RVD from Vengeance 02 is really good. Even with the bull plop finish.

[Matt D]

I need to rewatch the MSG Brock/Taker cage match which is up on a fancam. I know I loved it live, but at lot of that was for Vince's antics

[rovert]

Going by his WWE profile Brock will be rocking a hybrid look and will be displaying sponsors:

 

 

 

Not very Vince McMahon or Kevin Dunn. I guess it is just due to prior contractual requirements.

[El-P]

Interesting look.

So, from what I understand, Brock vs Cena already at a B PPV right after WM ? Well, that didn't take long.

[Matt D]

People on DVDVR (and maybe here?) smartly pointed out that Vince is getting whatever he can out of Brock before he flakes.

[Slasher]

People on DVDVR (and maybe here?) smartly pointed out that Vince is getting whatever he can out of Brock before he flakes.

On the flip side, I think Brock is smart enough that if he feels the WWE is not booking his run to maximize its potential, it only increases his chances to flake, wouldn't it? Putting a big time Cena/Brock matchup for Extreme Rules doesn't really spell "MONEYMAKER" to anyone, much less Brock.

[Exposer]

Pretty sure Will and I are in major disagreement over this, but I loved the Show v. Brock sprint series

Wasn't that after Summerslam anyway?

 

Yeah, they had the brief feud later in the year and continued it after Angle got hurt in 03.

[Dylan Waco]

Vince would be an idiot to not use Lesnar right now and as much as possible.

 

There is NO benefit to building to a match, if one of the guys could get sick, decided to go hunt, or get bored and take up table tennis on a moments notice.

 

You have to get the value out of Brock immediately or as close to immediately as possible.

[NintendoLogic]

Vince would be an idiot to not use Lesnar right now and as much as possible.

 

There is NO benefit to building to a match, if one of the guys could get sick, decided to go hunt, or get bored and take up table tennis on a moments notice.

 

You have to get the value out of Brock immediately or as close to immediately as possible.

The problem with this is that history has shown that nothing significantly pops buyrates for B-PPVs. They're better off building to Summerslam and risking Brock flaking than hotshotting Brock/Cena and getting 200k buys for Extreme Rules rather than 175k.

[Mr Wrestling X]

Lesnar's hybrid pro-wrestling/MMA attire is hideous, but at the same time quite intriguing. It seems as if Vince McMahon has finally accepted that he can make money by investing some interest in the MMA boom. Even if they just mention UFC on the air from time to time and talks about Lesnar's success in the promotion, it's still a big step for WWE...

 

One has to wonder though, could this be part of the deal at Dana White's end for the seemingly smooth contract negotiations that WWE and Lesnar agreed upon during Wrestlemania week? Perhaps WWE agreed to a cross-promotion deal? All we know is that some kind of business relationship has been in the works since WWE and UFC agreed to allow Lesnar to appear in the WWE '12 video game. It wouldn't be the first time that WWE has worked a minimal cross-promotion agreement with UFC, just look at Ken Shamrock's run with the company, where WWE took any opportunity to mention Shamrock's success in the UFC.

[artDDP]

It seems like it was a hundred years ago that they were using clips of and mentions of Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock's UFC feud to hype their WWF debuts.