Ring of Honor Wrestling

[Ryan Faulconer]

Get the Best Ofs. They don't sell complete shows prior to 2009/2010 and even that is a little sporadic in availability. The first few years has everything that people hate nowadays. Checking out the individual matches on a compilation or the couple of feud comps they have is the best way to go. The quality didn't drop off a cliff until the beginning of 2009...and by that I mean Final Battle 2008 was a great show. Everything after that is pretty shallow in terms of quality matches or characters or feuds. Once Bryan and Nigel leave near the end of 2009 they will never touch the quality of 2004-2008. 2010 is better than 2009 overall though.

 

I think the Summer of Punk ages really poorly. I hadn't seen much of summer/fall 2005 before I picked up the compilation and I sort of regret buying it. The CZW feud is a lot better. The Embassy/Generation Next feud is better. Jimmy Jacobs' run from 2006-2008 is so much better. Punk used to rip on Jacobs on IWA-MS commentary all the time for looking unprofessional in the ring. After watching their respective peaks in ROH I'd say that Punk is the one who looked like somebody playing the role of a professional wrestler.

 

The Milestone Series (4th Anniversary Show to The 100th Show) is probably their best stretch of shows top to bottom. Some stuff like KENTA/Marufuji vs. Joe/Danielson didn't turn out nearly as well as other stuff that they didn't hype as much.

 

After 2009 they start pushing Davey Richards pretty hard. He gets ripped on for doing stuff that others get away with every week so its really just his overall presentation that I think really makes him unlikeable as ROH's "ace". He gets most of the opportunities to have the "epic" or "dream" matches but I'd say most - if not all - of the following wrestlers made or would make a better choice company superstar du jour...

 

Bryan Danielson

Samoa Joe

Jimmy Jacobs

Tyler Black (Seth Rollins)

Nigel McGuinness

The Briscoes

Austin Aries

Roderick Strong

CM Punk (looking back though they seem a lot more alike than I remembered at the time...although Punk at least has a fleshed out character and can talk)

Colt Cabana

James Gibson

El Generico (Sami Zayn)

Low Ki

Christopher Daniels

AJ Styles

Jimmy Rave

Alex Shelley

Paul London

Spanky (Brian Kendrick)

Delirious

Claudio Castagnoli (Cesaro)

Chris Hero (Kassius Ohno)

Matt Sydal (Evan Bourne)

 

Richards is about as good as...

 

Rocky Romero

Erick Stevens

Shelton Benjamin

Eddie Edwards

Adam Pearce

Xavier

Kevin Steen

Jerry Lynn

Kenny Omega

 

Jack Evans/Necro Butcher/Brodie Lee (Luke Harper)/Amazing Red/Joey Matthews (Joey Mercury)/Joey Ryan/Pac (Adrien Neville)/TJ Perkins/Mike Quackenbush/Jigsaw/Hallowicked all should have had better opportunities or runs than they did.

[anarchistxx]

Get the Best Ofs. They don't sell complete shows prior to 2009/2010 and even that is a little sporadic in availability.

 

Disagree with this completely. A 'best of' is really pretty worthless, gives you no context to the matches and you don't see the buildup. You could get a two disc 'Best Of All Japan' with 06/09/95 on it, but is it going to be anywhere near as impactful and special if you haven't seen anything from the previous five years? Unless the sets also include angles, promos, previous matches/confrontations in a feud and other stuff outside simply a collection of great matches, they aren't any good for someone wanting to get into the product.

 

Also, if you just get a set of classic matches, you miss out on what made ROH so great; people like Jack Evans doing crazy shit on the udnercard, comedy tag matches, random British style matches with McGuiness and Williams, Cabana goofing around, fun little sprints etc. Plus great matches mean a lot less when they are on a disc with six other great matches. They shine a lot more when you have watched a complete card that is up and down.

 

You wouldn't tell someone looking into Led Zeppelin to buy a greatest hits set - you would make them buy the albums seperately, so 'Gallows Pole' and 'Bring It On Home' are there to balance out 'Immigrant Song' and 'Whole Lotta Love'.

 

I'm sure you will be able to pick up the individual events from somewhere fairly cheap unless you desperately want the official discs.

 

 

 

I'd say that Punk is the one who looked like somebody playing the role of a professional wrestler.

 

Not sure about this. The 'Summer Of Punk' is probably not great in retrospect, but Punk was never the type of guy to be putting on five star classics every week like he was put in the position to do. It was one of those things that was exciting to be a part of while it was happening, with him having signed to WWE and the big swerve and one of the first proper, traditionally booked long running storylines the company managed to pull off. It was more about the character work than the matches, and actually I think CM Punk is one of the more natural characters in recent years - he occasionally looks like he is playing a wrestler in the ring, but as an overall personality he seems believable, his backstage promo work was great even in his ROH days.

 

The matches themselves weren't classics, although most were solid. From 2005 you have the cage match against Jimmy Rave, the first Aries match and the Strong matches that lifted him up a level, plus the crowd reactions were fun, I imagine the 'Heat' and 'Velocity' chants have a certain irony considering he went on to headline stadium shows for WWE.

 

Also, I'm no fan of Davey Richards, but do you honestly think Delirious or Jimmy Jacobs would have been better choices as the ace of the company?

[CaptCabana]

Admins, feel free to move this if it's too much of a shill, but it is somewhat on topic.

 

I have the whole lot of ROH from 2003 - mid 2007, and all of it will be going up on a popular auction site very soon.

 

PM me if anyone is interested in details.

[Loss]

Please remember the forum rules. ROH is copyrighted material. Thanks.

[Bix]

I think he means his original DVDs from ROH's site.

[anarchistxx]

Are the original DVDs worth anything? I still have a handful but assumed it was too niche for anyone to pay more than a few dollars/pounds for each event.

[CaptCabana]

Indeed, I meant the originals purcharsed from Ring of Honor. Apologies if I overstepped my bounds or if there was any confusion. Feel free to delete.

[anotherspammer]

I had a ton of the 2004-2007 ROH shows and sold them on Ebay when I was moving in 2008. I listed them for about $15 each on Buy It Now, and they sold immediately. I don't think any was listed more than a day. I hear they're harder to find now.

[Robert S]

 

Get the Best Ofs. They don't sell complete shows prior to 2009/2010 and even that is a little sporadic in availability.

 

Disagree with this completely. A 'best of' is really pretty worthless, gives you no context to the matches and you don't see the buildup. You could get a two disc 'Best Of All Japan' with 06/09/95 on it, but is it going to be anywhere near as impactful and special if you haven't seen anything from the previous five years? Unless the sets also include angles, promos, previous matches/confrontations in a feud and other stuff outside simply a collection of great matches, they aren't any good for someone wanting to get into the product.

In principle I agree but regarding 2002 and 2003 stuff it is better to get the best of compilation ("Year One" and "Year Two") as the full shows especially now are probably pretty unwatchable as ROH undercards often were amateur hour until 2004 (and by amateur hour I mean wrestlers you had sometimes less than 10 matches under their belts) and there is not much storylines/angles you will be missing.

[anarchistxx]

A lot of that is part of the charm, though. Depends if you just want a set of great matches or also a time capsule type approximation of the indy world at the time. Personally I'm just as happy to sit through some shambolic, amateurish Special K match than I am to watch endless long workrate matches. Each one accentuates the other.

[SomethingSavage]

Meh. To each their own, regarding Whitmer. I personally don't find it too ridiculous to assume others would find enjoyment and entertainment value in watching a whirlwind of meaningless Whitmer bombs for the duration of a single match on a card. There's plenty of guys on the independent scene that have done, are doing, and will continue to commit the same mistakes. Not EVERYTHING is going to build to a grander story, an epic tale, or even be conducive to the REST of the card. It happens.

 

And true. Cabana as a character is one of the most undervalued things, I think, in retrospect. Guys like that stand out so much more within the landscape of ROH than they would elsewhere. It's like when they first let the likes of Low-Ki or Homicide bring the violence. It felt at least slightly unique TO THEM and so much more meaningful as a result. It felt like it could leave a lasting memory or an imprint.

 

The Bryan Danielson versus Homicide series deserves a mention, by the way.

 

Even higher up the list should be Hiroshima/Danielson.

 

And I always got a kick out of the Jimmy Rave push. I know it has a truckload of its critics and then some, but it really played off the hostilities of the ROH-bots. That kind of crowd truly DESPISED everything about Rave, and it just fit. It made for built-in, easily accessible heat. And the toilet paper as streamers thing was just a nice freaking touch on the fans' part.

[Robert S]

Even higher up the list should be Hiroshima/Danielson.

nice typo

[anarchistxx]

 

 

. Not EVERYTHING is going to build to a grander story, an epic tale, or even be conducive to the REST of the card. It happens.

 

Well, no, but that is no excuse for working a throwaway undercard match like the main event of Wrestlemania. A self conscious epic in the second match is just bad for the rest of the show, and means that whenever Whitmer does take part in a top of the card match with a well built feud and storyline, it means nothing because he works every other match exactly the same. He isn't even good at the bomb throwing, multiple near falls type matches. Struggle to think of anything he is good at. The epitome of bland landfill indy wrestler.

 

 

 

The Bryan Danielson versus Homicide series deserves a mention, by the way

 

The best of five? There was some very good matches in ther IIRC, definitely worth checking out.

 

Agree 100% on the Jimmy Rave push. Someone on here recently described him as boring, and my point was that he was meant to be boring, that was his character, and he played it to perfection. One of the only 'proper' heels ROH ever managed to make, the crowd properly hated him, as oppose to say the American Dragon heel title run where it was all 'wink wink' type stuff where they loved to pretend to hate him and he loved to pretend he hated and didn't care about them. Still wish Danielson would bring some of that stuff back actually, the 'I have till five' schtick would translate great to WWE audiences, they love something to chant along to, look how well 'We the people' got over.

 

 

 

. And the toilet paper as streamers thing was just a nice freaking touch on the fans' part.

 

Yep, the ROH fans took a lot of stick but they really helped make the shows. They were a million times better than a lot of the crowds today as well, with the prevalence of real smarkiness and 'this is awesome' chants on near enough every show.

 

 

 

Guys like that stand out so much more within the landscape of ROH than they would elsewhere. It's like when they first let the likes of Low-Ki or Homicide bring the violence. It felt at least slightly unique TO THEM and so much more meaningful as a result.

 

This is why ROH was so great actually, the variety down the card. Crazy flyers, comedy guys, stables, dominant monsters, generic indy wrestlers, vicious bastards, technical masters. They always made sure to have some variety on the show, and I started to zone out when there was less pacing a more stacked cards full of long matches.

[SomethingSavage]

Haha. I just scanned back & caught the Morishima typo. But yeah. Ya know what I meant. =D

[bradhindsight]

I had a ton of the 2004-2007 ROH shows and sold them on Ebay when I was moving in 2008. I listed them for about $15 each on Buy It Now, and they sold immediately. I don't think any was listed more than a day. I hear they're harder to find now.

 

This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[RazorbladeKiss87]

I recently started rewatching ROH from the beginning on and I can see both sides of the "Best of" vs "Whole shows" arguments. There's a LOT of bad stuff on these shows but it does keep things fun as opposed to be all serious business. Some of the enjoyment I'm getting is probably nostalgia because this was the era when I was first branching out past WWF/WCW/ECW and was really getting active on the internet. I've had a few friends who are more casual fans watching along with me and a good portion of each show has had trouble holding their interest, mainly the silly stuff. Anytime American Dragon has been onscreen they've been hooked however.

 

One thing I had pushed out of my mind was the terrible techno music used on all these releases.

[BigBadMick]

I've enjoyed reading the last few pages on this thread. Reminds me of the glory days (I'd say 04 all the way to end of 08, and plenty of decent stuff in 09 too). RoH is one reason I haven't commited on the pre/post 1996 debate....

[SomethingSavage]

I think there's honestly more to dislike about the early shows than there is to really enjoy in terms of re-watch value, but that doesn't mean they aren't totally worth exploring again. If you're unfamiliar, then they're certainly worth seeking out & seeing for the FIRST time. Just not particularly a lot of cards from early ROH days that have me going back to 'em as "glory years" or anything. Maybe that's just me.

 

There were clearly still a lot of kinks to iron out, but I think Gabe eventually found his footing as overall booker and hit a MAJOR stride - despite what some people may say or think about the guy. For a few years there, he managed to maintain a firm grasp on SO FREAKING MUCH stuff. He was juggling plenty of entertaining programs, and most of it felt like authentic old-school angles brought into modern day terms. That's it. Simple. Straightforward. Streamlined.

 

There were still truckloads of indie-riffic spots and botches, sure. There was mismanagement of card structure. Absolutely. But a lot of the angles were compelling and engaging, but they weren't too contrived. And thankfully, ROH couldn't afford a budget to make them TOO silly or polished anyhow. So we got things like the basic Joe/Punk series, centered around competition. We got sagas like the stuff with Jacobs, like a take on Sullivan brought up to date with digital & social media. And it clicked. It made ROH, for a time, a VERY hot product.

 

Not really sure what the general consensus is around this board, but I'd be intrigued to know what most of ya think is the real moment they jumped the shark. Was it the TV deal? Gabe's burnout? Gabe's replacement? The stalling with Tyler Black's ascension? The Lynn tribute title run? Pearce? Delirious? Just curious.

[BigBadMick]

I think there's honestly more to dislike about the early shows than there is to really enjoy in terms of re-watch value, but that doesn't mean they aren't totally worth exploring again. If you're unfamiliar, then they're certainly worth seeking out & seeing for the FIRST time. Just not particularly a lot of cards from early ROH days that have me going back to 'em as "glory years" or anything. Maybe that's just me.

 

There were clearly still a lot of kinks to iron out, but I think Gabe eventually found his footing as overall booker and hit a MAJOR stride - despite what some people may say or think about the guy. For a few years there, he managed to maintain a firm grasp on SO FREAKING MUCH stuff. He was juggling plenty of entertaining programs, and most of it felt like authentic old-school angles brought into modern day terms. That's it. Simple. Straightforward. Streamlined.

 

There were still truckloads of indie-riffic spots and botches, sure. There was mismanagement of card structure. Absolutely. But a lot of the angles were compelling and engaging, but they weren't too contrived. And thankfully, ROH couldn't afford a budget to make them TOO silly or polished anyhow. So we got things like the basic Joe/Punk series, centered around competition. We got sagas like the stuff with Jacobs, like a take on Sullivan brought up to date with digital & social media. And it clicked. It made ROH, for a time, a VERY hot product.

 

Not really sure what the general consensus is around this board, but I'd be intrigued to know what most of ya think is the real moment they jumped the shark. Was it the TV deal? Gabe's burnout? Gabe's replacement? The stalling with Tyler Black's ascension? The Lynn tribute title run? Pearce? Delirious? Just curious.

Don't know if it jumped that shark but I'd had my fill by the end of 08. Nothing in particular was annoying me going into 09, but I never mustered the enthusiasm to follow as closely thereafter.

 

Something Savage - Irish, right?

[Petey]

The last show I've ever attended/seen was Final Battle 08. Some of it was because my personal life was changing at the time and I couldn't dedicate as much time to indy wrestling as I had, but a lot of it was because I was quickly losing interest in ROH. The roster wasn't as deep as it had been and I just wasn't into it. I also soured a lot on the head drops/high impact spots due to a combination of Benoit, Misawa and the NFL concussion stuff. When I was in HS and the beginning of college, I loved the flippy spotfests, unprotected chair shots and head drops galore, but that all changed once I got into my early 20's.

[SomethingSavage]

Sadly, there aren't too many good things to come out of ROH since '08 or so. The super push for Tyler Black was so stalled by all the starts & stops that it barely meant ANYTHING by the time he actually won the belt. The payoff just felt flat.

Outside of the epic Steen/Generico saga, I can't really think of too many angles that left a mark. It was one of those broad, sweeping story arcs that draw you in and capture your imagination for a good chunk of time. Highly enjoyable, and given enough pawns & players to keep it fresh the entire time - right up to the huge finale in their Ladder War, which was as good a sendoff for Generico as you were gonna get in ROH.

 

I don't know. For me, personally - ROH has fallen pretty far down the pecking order as far as my favorite indies go. Sucks to say it, but it's true. When I have some time to kill, I'd MUCH rather watch a Guerrilla or Championship From Hollywood show instead.

 

I will say this - I really, REALLY dig the Maria/Bennett combo. Very much carry that Edge/Lita vibe to them, and I eat that stuff up. Hanson's another guy I'll keep my eye on. But that's about it these days. The likes of Cole, Steen, etc. are better represented in their angles & matches over on the West Coast with PWG.

Oh, and spoiler: Something Savage - not Irish. Sadly, also not a Poffo.

[anarchistxx]

Not really sure what the general consensus is around this board, but I'd be intrigued to know what most of ya think is the real moment they jumped the shark.

 

It wasn't so much them jumping the shark, although they did overeach; the biggest problem was the talent drain. They lost Samoa Joe, Low-Ki, Bryan Danielson, CM Punk and dozens of others to WWE or when TNA started signing guys and insisting on exclusivity. They also suffered from fan burnout - a lot of the people who were hardcore fans when they started out were either growing up and growing out of wrestling or having other responsibilities and things going on in there life. Following ROH was expensive and time consuming, especially as they started putting more shows on. People also just got jaded with the style, as always happens. There weren't enough new guys coming through and the variety had declined in the product, the booking had got a bit tired.

 

So they had a worse roster, a worse product yet were simultaneously trying to expand. With reasonable finance ROH in 2004/2005 could have maybe reached ECW levels. At one point some people were arguing they could surpass TNA as the #2 promotion if they got television and expsosure.

[SomethingSavage]

Hmm. Highly insightful rundown there, man. Hadn't really looked at it that way before, but the theory totally makes sense to me. They never really attempted to branch out and "create" new fans. They weren't exactly broadening the audience at a time when they were exciting, new, and offering the best on the indies. By the time they scored a TV deal and a means to try new things, they weren't quite the same ROH that had been so hyped and popularized for so long.

 

Combine that failure to reach new fans along with the regulars becoming disenchanted and uninterested in the new direction, and yeah. That's where the real drop-off is felt. They not only failed to maintain the loyalty of many longtime fans, but they struggled with establishing any new ones. I can see that.

[Petey]

Anarchist nailed it. I remember back in early 04 when TNA first pulled their talent and everyone was all doom and gloom. But that directly led to the Generation Next debut and mega push of Alex Shelley, Austin Aries, Roderick Strong and Jack Evans. It also led to guys like Jimmy Jacobs, Delirious and Matt Sydal getting a greater presence on shows (down the line), especially as ROH expanded into the midwest. Where as everyone initially was mad and disappointed about the AJ Styles' and Chris Daniels' being puleld from ROH, their replacements were arguably even better and ROH got better because of it. When ROH started losing its talent in 07 and 08, the replacements weren't at the same level as the 04/05 crop and the company suffered.

[BigBadMick]

What are the best RoH events from 2010-11? Or single matches. It's a real blind spot for me, would like to fill the gaps someday.

 

Also, when did everyone seem to turn against Davey Richards? I tried watching some of matches in 2011 and they were completely overblown. He seemed relatively restrained in 09 though.