Ring of Honor Wrestling

[bradhindsight]

I know for Best in the World they had a price point for watching (HD) and watching with the ability to DVR (HD) which was like $5 more. I thought it was $30 and $35 for BitW but could be misremembering.

 

What are they asking for with the 13th Anniversary show?

[KrisZ]

Yeah last night was a tremendous show in a slam packed building that was standing room only all around the place. ROH seemed like a molten hot product last night in Atlanta and the matches were all at the very least good not a match less than that.

[Timbo Slice]

If you haven't seen the 6-man from this past week's TV, make sure you do so. A lot of fun, high-paced stuff, plus an all-time crash and burn blown spot with AJ and ACH.

[The Thread Killer]

On the heels of a strong Winter Warriors tour, things seem to be moving into the right direction for ROH. I was at the Philly taping Rumble weekend and the old ECW Arena was jam-packed. Had to have close to 2,000. It was a blast.

 

It sounded like Atlanta was similar last night, if not larger, and they hadn't ran Atlanta since 2011. This is a positive lead-up to the 13th Anniversary Show which is on PPV. The buys for their two 2014 PPVS were 12,000 for Best in the World and then 8,000 for Final Battle. The drop-off is not good but maybe they rebound here. The 13th anniversary show has a deep card, Styles, the Young Bucks, and Anderson/Gallows - the Bullet Club is hot and in three sep matches.

 

Liger has been announced for the Mania weekend show.

 

As I bitched and moaned about earlier in this thread, I was one of the people who ordered both of those 2014 Pay Per Views and after that last one, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever pay for another one...especially if they're raising the damn price. $35.00 was way too much for that last pile of crap as it was.

 

I am not as sold on this show as other people seem to be anyhow. Hell, to me the card from that show in Atlanta was just as good if not better than this upcoming PPV.

 

- I don't give a shit about ODB vs. Maria

 

- I don't get why Sydal is fighting Alexander, not ACH. Alexander has always come across as really bland and boring to me.

 

- Speaking of bland and boring...Whitmer vs. Strong? Boy, I bet the promos leading up to that one were scorching.

 

- Does anybody think ACH has a hope in hell of beating AJ Styles? And why is Styles so low on the damn card?

 

- Daniels and Kazarian, Bennett and Taven and Anderson and Gallows are all perfectly good Tag Teams...but why does ROH insist on booking these stupid NJPW rip-off Triple Threat Tag Matches? Having three (or four) teams in the match ruins the damn flow of the match, it ends up being like the opener at WK9, the whole "let's cram as much shit in as we can, and psychology be damned!"

 

- The Tag Title match should be okay, even though I hate the Young Bucks. Hate hate hate.

 

- Lethal vs. El Patron has a ton of potential, but I'm not buying the show based on one match.

 

- The Main Event has Hanson in it. The guy who was in the opener of the last PPV is now in the Main Event of this one? Seriously? Bad enough that they couldn't come up with a decent opponent for Briscoe that they had to shoe-horn this stupid Ciampa/Elgin angle into the match...but Hanson? And I am willing to bet they put the title back on Elgin too. Bleh.

 

- Why is Mark Briscoe not booked? I suppose I should be thankful Moose and RD Evans are not on this show.

 

 

They upped the price on this PPV so I imagine the numbers will fall even further for it.

 

They also recently asked Sinclair for a budget increase and were told no.

 

kjh was saying in the Samoa Joe thread that Sinclair is being tight with money right now, which is why we are unlikely to see Joe coming in vs. El Patron. Apparently the concept of having to spend money to make money is foreign to these people.

[bradhindsight]

Moose is facing Mark Briscoe, THK. He was super over with the crowd in Philly. Seemed to hold his own with Elgin in their short match.

 

I agree, the Atlanta card looked better. I may actually bite the bullet and get that on VOD versus ordering the PPV.

[MikeCampbell]

I'm starting to turn the corner on the Young Bucks. Between their match with Steen/Generico on Will's 2013 comp, and against the Hero/Claudio, I thought they were shit. But, as I'm watching more PWG, I'm starting to appreciate them a bit. What's the consensus on reDRagon? I haven't seen either of them in years.

[bradhindsight]

re: Sinclair and not expanding their budget, I don't necessarily take that as a big negative (or that ROH financial woes is somehow the headline out of it).

 

Last year they booked NJPW talent for two shows, ran two PPVs and brought in guys like AJ Styles, Hero, Daniels, Kazarian, Sydal, etc.

 

Without knowing the figures, it's a decent budget. I absolutely agree you have to spend money to make money. Given the results in 2014, Sinclair giving them the same number to work through this year isn't surprising. That drop-off for Final Battle is jarring. Attendance is up when they return to places, which is a positive trend though.

 

They've already ponied up for Patron in '15 and more NJPW is on the docket. I feel like Joe could definitely happen, even just a couple of dates.

[Strand Peanut]

Did it even come out what ROH needed the money for? I'm guessing increased presentation, and infrastructure.

 

From a corporate viewpoint, I can see a lot of reasons not to add operating costs to a divison. Reasons not necessarily tied to ROH's gross or profitability.

 

Out of curiosity, what're are the biggest crowds ROH has drawn in it's history? It seems like 2,000 people or so is their top level over the last ten years, but I'm not entirely sure at this point.

[Dylan Waco]

I think ROH has been the best tv product on a week-to-week basis for the last year or so, and I say that as someone who absolutely loathed ROH during the Davey Richards years, and the subsequent "Elgin is the new guy" mini-period. Even guys who I think are absolute shit like Jay Lethal, have been put in positions where they at least have a purpose and an on air presentation that adds to the shows, though I can't imagine any scenario where I would want to see him have a wrestling match.

 

I'm not the biggest Hanson guy in the world, but I do think it's weird to bitch about his push. The only strong argument I could see against pushing a guy with that look, size and raw talent - something that is rare on the indies - is that there are other guys who "came before it" who are as charismatic and have "earned it" more. But I'm not sympathetic to that argument at all for a variety of reasons. I mean yes, ACH is very charismatic, and probably underutilized on some level, but I don't think that is an argument against Hanson. There are people in the promotion who I do think are overpushed - Lethal who isn't any good (but at least is presented very well on tv and I like what they've done with him and that title), Elgin who is awful and has lost the fans, Roddy who is coming off of his best in ring year in close to a decade but is badly overexposed - but I don't think Hanson is one of them.

 

I actually think ROH has a very good core talent roster, and I think the way they use their part timers is very smart. The part timers (Styles, Bucks, Patron) win their matches, but they aren't beating their top guys decisively, and they are enough of a looming presence on the shows where even when they do get wins over top guys it doesn't have the same feel of The Rock or Taker stopping by once a year to beat the biggest names on the WWE roster. It's a balancing act because those guys have to be protected, but I think matches like Styles v. Fish or ACH is a great use of a guy like Styles. Far better than putting him into a main even with Jay that would likely lead to a fuck finish.

 

When I look at the ROH roster I see a great tag team in reDRagon, ACH and Ced who I think are very charisamatic and talented performers who could main event there, The Briscoes who are the best tag team in the world and nearly as good as singles, Kingdom who is extremely underrated as a unit and stand out as different on the roster, Moose and Hanson who are big young guys who have improved a ton, have charisma and also feel different on the roster, the part timers who I generally feel have been used well, Ciampa who has improved a ton, Sydal who seems to be getting his groove back this year, and they have Ray Rowe and Silas Young waiting in the wings to return from injuries, both of whom have a lot of potential and can add a lot to the shows. I'm not saying its' a great, great roster, or that everyone is presented well, but I'll take what they currently have over the Richards/Edwards/Elgin/Oreilly before he got good/et. stuff every time.

[cheapshot]

Really summed up my current thoughts on ROH in that post Dylan. I agree with your thoughts about Hanson, I am happy that he's being pushed, he's got a good upside. (Ditto for Moose (MOOSE!).

 

Warming up on the product as a whole after being put off greatly during the Richards era. I think that the TV this last few weeks has been really fun, I am very much looking forward to the PPV next month.

[KrisZ]

The worst guy on the ROH show in Atlanta on Saturday was Elgin but even he was pretty good in the 6 way.

 

Hanson has improved in every way and is the template for what Moose can become but Moose will be even better because he has more athleticism.

 

The roster is really hitting a groove right now and it's fun watching ROH without having to feel dirty or hating all the top guys.

[sek69]

ROH has consistently been one of my favorite shows to watch from week to week.The wrestling is usually top notch and while i get the Kelly/Corino team isn't everyone's cup of tea they do a good job balancing getting angles over while still adding humor.

[Strand Peanut]

Where's a good starting point? If I wanted to catch up til now?

[soup23]

I would start with Brisco regaining the title. They kind of lucked into something with him not getting pinned but now they are playing that up appropriately and stuff seems to be more focused after Final Battle.

[Ryan Faulconer]

I haven't been paying much attention to ROH since 2012.

 

Is it weird that whenever I see the mention of "Hanson" on an ROH show I immediately think of Ref Hansen who reffed (of course) the Northeast indies from fifteen years ago?

 

Maybe they will bring back that Dana valet and Donnie B too!

[Timbo Slice]

TV since Final Battle has been tremendous. I might actually buy the PPV this weekend.

[bradhindsight]

I'm tempted to buy the PPV but leaning towards the VOD (should be up after) - assuming it's at a discount.

 

They also quickly put up the VOD for the Atlanta show from this past weekend - a great move by them given all the press. I'm in for $14.95 there.

[KrisZ]

Buy that show ASAP

[shoe]

I'm tempted to buy the PPV but leaning towards the VOD (should be up after) - assuming it's at a discount.

 

They also quickly put up the VOD for the Atlanta show from this past weekend - a great move by them given all the press. I'm in for $14.95 there.

The way Zellner put it over It sounds like a perfect idea for my Saturday before UFC that night.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

It's probably time that I get back in now that my local CW is carrying the show.

[shoe]

I watched the Atlanta show and it really was a great show. I can see people thinking it was as good or better than the NJPW WK show. Also thought Caprice Coleman was great on the matches he did color on. Especially the Styles match. He really got the story of the match psychology over. With that said I know him and Kevin Kelly don't announce a lot together. I do hope they develop more of a chemistry.

 

 

1.Caprice Coleman def. v Dog Mike Posey

 

This was a showcase for Coleman and it did it's job of getting him over and showing what he's about. I enjoyed Posey in this too. 2 1/2*

 

2.Corey Hollis vs Jonathan Gresham This started out pretty good and I was pissed when it was interrupted by The Decade. This morphed into a killer tag match. Whitmer as bully has this role down. The build here was great. We get some clunky spots, but nothing horrible. The build to the finish and the faces teasing submissions working Whitmer's bum wheel was tremendous and so effective. 3 1/2* for the whole segment.

 

3.Matt Sydal vs Delirious

 

This was a real fun match. Delirious was on point with the comedy. They walked the line real well with the comedy, and the action. Kevin Kelly really did a great job at putting over the these guys history with one another. 3 1/4*

 

4. Roderick Strong vs Kyle O'Reilly

 

I think this might have been match of the night. This was just great wrestling. O'Reilly was great working the arm and worked great spots around it. Strong was pretty great at selling the arm. Strong even avoided using it in strikes. Strong would go after the back and played into the finish. They told a compelling story that had a strong narrative that lead to a finish that made sense. 4*

 

5.Moose vs ACH

 

This was interesting stuff. They worked a game of Moose and Mouse as Caprice referred to it as. Their is a spin in this though. At times ACH tried to match Moose toe to toe and every time ACH failed. That made the classic spin even more interesting and made sense since ACH does have an ego. Fun match. 3 1/4 *

 

 

6. 6 Man Mayhem match was a killer high spot oriented sprint. Everybody had a chance to shine. So many great spots that the crowd ate up with a spoon. Some nice interactions that could payoff on their ppv on Sunday. 4*

 

7. AJ Styles def. Bobby Fish

 

This was another killer match. Styles comes across as the biggest Star in the United States not named Brock. This match told a great story that lead to a satisfying finish. The early portion we see Styles work over Fish's arm. This was well done. Then he moves over to working the ribs. He misses a move and transitions to Fish and he's great hear working over AJ's core. Fish was all over it and it was nice payback. We get some back and forth down the finish. Styles though eventually takes control down the finish working over Fish's neck. He wins clean and shows he's the superior wrestler, but Fish is in his league. I went back and forth and ended up giving this 4*

 

8. 2/3 Falls ARMAGEDDON Tag Match: Briscoes vs Mike Bennett & Matt Taven

 

This is basically 1st fall is normal rules, 2nd fall table match, 3rd fall FCA. People live have told me this was incredible. On tv it didn't reach that level. It was more because of things outside the wrestlers control. Like when they were brawling in the crowd it was pitch black and real hard to see what was going on. Still it was good at 3 *

Overall a great show. This show smoked Fastlane. If enough people watch it, the show has a chance to be in the mix for show of the year. It's missing that MOTY candidate, but it's really good from top to bottom.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

What are the best ROH shows since Cole won the belt? That was the last full show I watched (I actually like Cole - just that that one had more horrible technical issues that were just enough for me to not bother anymore).

[goc]

Ok Dylan and others in this thread are going to get me to give ROH another shot. I'll check out the last 2 weeks of TV and give my thoughts.

[stomperspc]

I've skipped around the Atlanta show a bit and still have a few matches to get through.

 

Really enjoyed Strong/O'Reilly. O'Reilly's arm work and Strong's selling/reactions were done in a far more thoughtful way than you generally get from ROH/US indies these days. Strong is having a good year and this was one of O'Reilly's stronger singles performances.

 

I enjoyed Sydal/Delirious far more than than I enjoyed any of their matches where they were taking their touring match around the indies in the early/mid-2000's. Average or so match but easy to watch. In terms of crispness and execution of offense, Sydal has been very good over the past few months compared to how he looked when he first returned to the indies.

 

The main event had its moments and it was above average, but I don't think it was a particularly strong match. Some of it wasn't their fault (ie. the announcers did a terrible job explaining the stipulations to the point that I thought I just imagined the "different stips each fall" thing until the table bump ended the second fall). Some of it was their fault. Taven did a poor job wrestling as a heel. Far too many flashy face spots (springboard moves, comeback spots when he is supposed to be a heel, ect.). The third fall didn't take full advantage of the stips. There were some badly mistimed spots too. The effort was there, it went the appropriate length, and there were some good general idea but I thought they missed out on a lot of low hanging fruit. There was a lot of stuff they should have gotten right that they missed.

[Tim Cooke]

I've skipped around the Atlanta show a bit and still have a few matches to get through.

 

Really enjoyed Strong/O'Reilly. O'Reilly's arm work and Strong's selling/reactions were done in a far more thoughtful way than you generally get from ROH/US indies these days. Strong is having a good year and this was one of O'Reilly's stronger singles performances.

 

I enjoyed Sydal/Delirious far more than than I enjoyed any of their matches where they were taking their touring match around the indies in the early/mid-2000's. Average or so match by easy to watch. In terms of crispness and execution of offense, Sydal has been very good over the past few months compared to how he looked when he first returned to the indies.

 

The main event had its moments and it was above average, but I don't think it was a particularly strong match. Some of it wasn't their fault (ie. the announcers did a terrible job explaining the stipulations to the point that I thought I just imagined the "different stips each fall" thing until the table bump ended the second fall). Some of it was their fault. Taven did a poor job wrestling as a heel. Far too many flashy face spots (springboard moves, comeback spots when he is supposed to be a heel, ect.). The third fall didn't take full advantage of the stips. There were some badly mistimed spots too. The effort was there, it went the appropriate length, and there were some good general idea but I thought they missed out on a lot of low hanging fruit. There was a lot of stuff they should have gotten right that they missed.

 

Strong/O'Reilly surprised me a in good way. Strong has been pretty good in the 2015 stuff I've seen him in and O'Reilly, now away from Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, and Tony Kozina seems to have some understanding of how to present modern MMA spots into a US pro wrestling match.

 

I thought the main event was okay. For a feud blow off, assuming this is the case and they don't try to squeeze any more out of it, I thought they showed good restraint which is a one of my top complaints about the US Indy and Japanese scene for many years.

 

But there are inherent issues with the third fall. Maybe it was a booking issue conflicting with what the wrestlers were going with but a falls count anywhere fall not having a single near fall occur outside the ring is amateur hour. This is especially true when you have the finish (the diving doomsday) and can pin the guys right on the floor because that is where he fell. It only makes perfect sense and instead they just lift him back into the ring.

 

And Matt Taven is below average and that's probably being kind. I'm not a Michael Bennett fan (and his punches in this match resembled someone who had never used their arms for anything physical in real life) but Taven made him look very polished. Briscoes deserve a WWE/major promotion run. WWE would help tone down their style, which could benefit them in terms of longevity. But that's not always a sure fire solution. Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose both benefitted from the WWE style initially but then a combo of booking and staleness has made them run of the mill.

 

I also read somewhere else that this show had good heat. Maybe I'm watching too much AAA and Cara Lucha where the big AAA crowds are really loud and the small Cara Lucha crowds are really good for being around 75-100 people, but standards have nose dived if this show was a product of good heat. I didn't think it wasn't heated but it didn't stick out to me as anything special.

 

Watched a fair amount of other stuff today (AXS show from last night-Naito v Tanahashi was not very good at all) and some older stuff and the ROH matches came out in the middle of the pack, which is a lot more than I can say about most of their stuff from the last 5 years.

 

Edit: Tavon for Taven the second time I wrote his name. I'm guessing Tavon Austin would have been a great wrestler if he chose that. Certainly would run the ring ropes faster than the DG guys