Can we just call Samoa Joe "that poor fucker" now?

[goc]

Really, Punk went through several patches of being badly mistreated by WWE from September 2005 till he resigned with the company in the early summer of 2011. The same goes with Daniel Bryan until he got over as a cult figure at WrestleMania 28. The only reason WWE got their moneys worth with the two is that they were able to overcome all the attempted burials and bad booking due to their innate talent and confidence.

Bryan went into Wrestlemania 28 as WHC. It sucks that he got pinned in 18 seconds, but he had a decent reign from December to April. Punk has always been treated pretty well. When has he ever been buried? People always seem to cry burial whenever a guy isn't being pushed at the time. Burial is something that happened to Paul Burchill. He went from having a pretty over pirate gimmick to randomly being stuck on Velocity jobbing to Road Warrior Animal and feuding with Simon Dean. Punk has always been a featured part of whatever brand he's on.

 

Neither Bryan or Punk have come anywhere close to being "buried" in WWE. Neither of them has gotten the Vito treatment, where they want to embarrass you and make you wrestle in a dress. The closest they've come is that Bryan went on a little bit of a losing streak after winning MITB and Punk wasn't booked very well during the latter stages of S.E.S. or during the terrible Nexus stint. But that's not going from being the Chosen One to off TV to being a part of 3MB. It's not "let's make Mark Henry kiss trannies and Mae Young because we're mad we gave him a big contract" level stuff. They suffered from bad booking. Everyone in WWE suffers from bad booking, even guys like Cena and HHH.

[tigerpride]

Punk once lost at 10 straight PPVs. That's insane.

 

Everyone said the firing was a shoot at the time, I don't see why it was a work

[MikeCampbell]

He was legitimately released over the choking incident, because of the Matel deal. But, they full planned on bringing him back once the heat died down.

[Loss]

He was legitimately released over the choking incident, because of the Matel deal. But, they full planned on bringing him back once the heat died down.

Mattel denied this at the time. That was speculated, but never confirmed.

[artDDP]

They re-issued a series of WrestleMania DVDs after editing out any scenes of choking so I'm willing to believe they released Bryan for going too far during the initial Nexus angle, then brought him back once the heat died down.

[rovert]

For what is worth Chris DeJoseph said this weekend on the Torch that Shawn Michaels and William Regal had to fight to get him back.

 

 

I'd love to hear a day by day breakdown too one day.

[kjh]

Don't know about Punk, but they had Bryan marked from day 1. The first season of NXT was all about getting him over.

Like the third season of NXT was designed to get Kaval over? I think with both Punk and Bryan, earlier on in their WWE tenures, there was a constant battle between the writers that were high on them and the man in charge who wasn't. Punk also had the problem that he had heat with some of the agents.

[vicious&delicious]

I wouldn't say that Punk was buried. He was stuck in the jobber to main eventers rut that Cesaro is stuck in and Ziggler just got out of.

 

Bryan was buried. Once the audiences cooled on him after his Miz storyline he was routinely being fed to the likes of sin cara. The only thing that saved him was his out of left field MITB win. Even after the win creative did nothing with him for months. He was in no angles and he wasn't on a bunch of ppv cards. The briefcase essentially became a I.O.U. a decent storyline that Bryan took complete advantage of.

[cm funk]

Don't know about Punk, but they had Bryan marked from day 1. The first season of NXT was all about getting him over.

Like the third season of NXT was designed to get Kaval over? I think with both Punk and Bryan, earlier on in their WWE tenures, there was a constant battle between the writers that were high on them and the man in charge who wasn't. Punk also had the problem that he had heat with some of the agents.

 

Nah. Watch season 1 of NXT compared to the Low Ki season. Ki got himself over in spite of the show. NXT season 1 was actually booked logically, and it was booked to make stars out of people. The first episode was "HEY, THIS IS DANIEL BRYAN, HE'S A STAR!" By the time they got to season 3 or whatever they were just looking to humiliate the kids. Seriously, I don't recommend watching NXT again, but the moments that got Ki over were totally in spite of the booking

[blueminister]

I thought it was pretty well established that he was legit fired personally by Vince because of skittishness with Mattel and the Linda Senate campaign, but not necessarily at their request.

 

With the possible exception of the Jericho showoff match, Daniel Bryan was booked stupidly on NXT. At best the supposed NXT "push" was confusing for the audience he still had to sell himself to. Heck, the head announcer was allowed to tee off on him at will.

 

I'll never believe WWE has got so bad at their jobs that that was their idea of getting him over, as opposed to putting him in his place/making sure he'd do business/whatever.

[Loss]

I thought it was pretty well established that he was legit fired personally by Vince because of skittishness with Mattel and the Linda Senate campaign, but not necessarily at their request.

It was speculated, but neither Dave nor MKJ ever came out and said, "This is what happened."

[blueminister]

I think MRV wrote an article where he confirmed it but it was a long time ago.

[Guest Staples]

For what is worth Chris DeJoseph said this weekend on the Torch that Shawn Michaels and William Regal had to fight to get him back.

 

 

I'd love to hear a day by day breakdown too one day.

I don't know I fully believe that. If people had to fight to bring him back, I could see him being brought back at a Justin Gabriel or Heath Slater level to shut them up, but he got a fairly sustained push when he returned at the main event of Summerslam. He was one of the last two standing and he pretty much dominated the feud with the office's golden boy Miz. The only time I think he was in a lull was after he lost the US title to Sheamus and was teaming with Santino in comedy tags. Also, people have to remember that WWE doesn't view wins and loses as serious as some of the hardcore fans do. Bryan lost a lot after he won the MITB, but the important thing was he always had something to do. Someone like the aforementioned Gabriel probably had a better win/loss record than Daniel did at the time, but he was off in the wasteland of C shows, spinning his wheels.

 

Speaking of the losing streak...wasn't it part of a bigger angle to turn him heel? When he won the briefcase, he declared he was going to cash it in at Wrestlemania. He started the losing streak which made him paranoid that he might not be able to win the title in a straight up competition hence him breaking his vow and trying to use it on Mark Henry and successfully using it on Big Show. He became a giant jackass afterward.

[Jimmy Redman]

For what is worth Chris DeJoseph said this weekend on the Torch that Shawn Michaels and William Regal had to fight to get him back.

 

 

I'd love to hear a day by day breakdown too one day.

I don't know I fully believe that. If people had to fight to bring him back, I could see him being brought back at a Justin Gabriel or Heath Slater level to shut them up, but he got a fairly sustained push when he returned at the main event of Summerslam. He was one of the last two standing and he pretty much dominated the feud with the office's golden boy Miz. The only time I think he was in a lull was after he lost the US title to Sheamus and was teaming with Santino in comedy tags. Also, people have to remember that WWE doesn't view wins and loses as serious as some of the hardcore fans do. Bryan lost a lot after he won the MITB, but the important thing was he always had something to do. Someone like the aforementioned Gabriel probably had a better win/loss record than Daniel did at the time, but he was off in the wasteland of C shows, spinning his wheels.

 

Speaking of the losing streak...wasn't it part of a bigger angle to turn him heel? When he won the briefcase, he declared he was going to cash it in at Wrestlemania. He started the losing streak which made him paranoid that he might not be able to win the title in a straight up competition hence him breaking his vow and trying to use it on Mark Henry and successfully using it on Big Show. He became a giant jackass afterward.

 

I think this is a bit of a stretch, unless we are counting simply being on a show the level of Smackdown as having something to do. Bryan had nothing to do from pretty much the moment he won the MITB until the Henry feud started in November to lead to the cash in. He was just a guy who wrestled matches on Smackdown and usually lost. There was no real storyline involved, pretty much all of the "losing streak" stuff was done on the webshows where nobody could see it, until VERY late in the piece. He wasn't Justin Gabriel, but he wasn't doing anything either.

 

I don't consider this a conscious decision to "bury" him either, but I think attributing any significant push or foresight into the really long lull period he had prior to the cash in is giving WWE more credit than they maybe deserve. Bryan was just a recipient of the braindead "Whatever, you have the briefcase, so we can use you as a jobber until you cash it in because hey, you'll be World Champ after that, no harm done!" MITB booking. Same deal as Punk in 2008, Swagger in 2010 (more prior to winning the case though), Alberto in 2011, Dolph in 2012. Look at the intervening period between winning MITB and cashing in. They all spent long periods of time doing little and jobbing a lot. I honestly think WWE's thinking is that becoming a world champ in the end will assuage all of the losses and inactivity. Which is a horrible way to book, but there you go.

[sek69]

The only thing I could see being a burial was how when he was at his most obnoxious, Michael Cole would spend the entire time belittling the guy. Sure you could say "well at least he was on Raw instead of jobbing on Superstars", but it went on for so long it seemed like he was never going to get his comeuppance.

 

It always seemed to me they had him slotted in the role of "midcard guy who can have good matches who can carry the guys we want to push on top" until the Raw after WM when he lost in 18 seconds. Looking back, it was a clear case of the hardcore WM travelers who felt they got slapped in the face, but that seemed to open the eyes of people backstage who weren't sold on him. Ever since, he's been pushed as a guy who can hang with the top stars and not seem out of place.

[Guest Staples]

I don't consider this a conscious decision to "bury" him either, but I think attributing any significant push or foresight into the really long lull period he had prior to the cash in is giving WWE more credit than they maybe deserve. Bryan was just a recipient of the braindead "Whatever, you have the briefcase, so we can use you as a jobber until you cash it in because hey, you'll be World Champ after that, no harm done!" MITB booking. Same deal as Punk in 2008, Swagger in 2010 (more prior to winning the case though), Alberto in 2011, Dolph in 2012. Look at the intervening period between winning MITB and cashing in. They all spent long periods of time doing little and jobbing a lot. I honestly think WWE's thinking is that becoming a world champ in the end will assuage all of the losses and inactivity. Which is a horrible way to book, but there you go.

It is a bad way to book, yes, but I think they had a bit of foresight. He had a feud with Wade Barrett in August that he lost and I remember he cut a heel-ish promo during the fake Sin Cara deal where he bitched about Cara and how he wouldn't break his word about Wrestlemania which he ended up doing.

[goc]

I would guess Low Ki. I bet he's near the top of the indy pay scale for U.S. indy dates, without having to give a cut to TNA, and probably makes decent money in Japan. I really doubt Joe is making the kind of money that a Kurt Angle or Jeff Hardy is making in TNA.

I have some doubts on just how much a top of the indy pay scale guy nets relative to what Joe nets in TNA. If it was a shitload, Joe would have left TNA and gone back to the indies making more money than Ki. Instead, Joe has stayed with TNA.

 

Money in Japan isn't what it once was. Plus, Ki isn't a heavyweight top of the card guy there. Also doubt he worked / works as many dates there as say Hansen did in AJPW in 1996 (i.e. every card on all 8 series).

 

Just thought I'd throw this into the discussion:

 

Brandon Sylvestry (Low Ki/Senshi), 32, has been telling promoters that have contacted him that he’s retired. He’s moving on into voice over work. He had been in talks with All Japan, but had asked for a huge guarantee. At one point they had an agreement but All Japan backed off. He did say that with the right program with a major group, he is open to coming back, but not unless it’s something major.

Seems like he's made more money than Joe if he feels he can turn down bookings to focus on a new career. I could be wrong and the real thing is just that Low Ki can't get booked anywhere anymore.

[Ditch]

I'd be stunned if Ki can't get bookings. Even with "works too stiff" and "is somewhat of a diva", he's one of the top few early 2000s indy stars that's available. Guys like Cabana criss-cross the country and earn a living based on way less name recognition.

[rovert]

I'd be stunned if Ki can't get bookings. Even with "works too stiff" and "is somewhat of a diva", he's one of the top few early 2000s indy stars that's available. Guys like Cabana criss-cross the country and earn a living based on way less name recognition.

Gabe still reps for him hard and says Ki has been a total professional. Even DGUSA/EVOLVE's level of business Low Ki is probably a real difference maker and worth the headache.

[goc]

I'd be stunned if Ki can't get bookings. Even with "works too stiff" and "is somewhat of a diva", he's one of the top few early 2000s indy stars that's available. Guys like Cabana criss-cross the country and earn a living based on way less name recognition.

Gabe still reps for him hard and says Ki has been a total professional. Even DGUSA/EVOLVE's level of business Low Ki is probably a real difference maker and worth the headache.

 

I don't know, I have a feeling he's retiring because he isn't getting the money he wants to wrestle. Like he said, he's willing to come back for something major, meaning big money, but I don't think he's going to get that from a DGUSA or EVOLVE. WWE isn't going to bring him back for big money or a major angle, TNA is supposedly going thru cost cutting due to the big increase in costs when they took iMPACT on the road, and RoH isn't going to shell out big money for ANYONE.

 

So that pretty much leaves Japan, where apparently he's burnt his bridge with New Japan, All Japan decided not to bring him in, and then who is left that is going to pay big money to bring in a U.S. Junior Heavyweight?

[Ditch]

That is a key point: he can make a living with spot bookings but maybe not enough to be worth the punishment.

[Log]

Joe stopped by my station this morning to promote TNA's show in Louisville tonight. Apparently, he got stuck in Atlanta overnight waiting on a flight and has a torn retina or something with his eye. I didn't stop in (too early), but apparently he was really cool to everyone. Here's his appearance. Skip to about 2:00 in to see him. It was fun stuff.

 

Samoa Joe on WDRB in the Morning

[Cox]

With Hero being pulled from NXT due to conditioning issues, Samoa Joe probably would have been fucked if he had gone to WWE, so no matter what career path he chose, he always would have been "that poor fucker." I guess in retrospect, his ROH run will go down as easily the best run of his career.

[jdw]

Fucking fuckers.

[Log]

(RIP Dennis Farina)