Loss Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 Will and Charles are joined by members of www.prowrestlingonly.com to discuss the career and legacy of Bret Hart. We take a brief look at his early days traveling the globe, wrestling in Stampede, forming the Hart Foundation, finding success as a singles wrestler and his most famous feuds. If you are a fan of the Hitman, you owe it yourself to listen to this show! http://placetobenation.com/wrestling-with-...ting-bret-hart/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 Thanks to Grimmas, Nintendo Logic, Johnny Sorrow and KrisZ for being guests on this show! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 Thanks a lot for having me on. Hopefully, I didn't sound like too much of a dumbass. It was a lot of fun, and it was a lot less contentious than I thought it was going to be. Fair warning: I say "like" and "you know" a lot. EDIT: Holy shit, I sounded nervous as fuck the whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 Thanks for having me on. I love talking about Bret Hart. Sorry I had to bow out due to phone issues. I will take it as a victory that Loss said you may be able to say that Bret Hart is more talented than Ric Flair. Good enough for me! Now I have to listen to the last half to see what I missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 I am about 2/3s of the way in and it just breezes by. Since I just incredible amount of Hart Foundation recently ( as well as I have seen pretty much every major Bret 90s match), I wanted to mention my biggest take home message from his work was that he was ready for "primetime" at the beginning of his WWF tenure. He was the best ring general (case to be made for Bill Eadie) of the tag division and you could tell that he would be a major singles star. I think Loss comparison of the WWF Tag Division to WCW's cruiserweight division is something I never thought of before and a really good way to frame the tag division. That being said Bret Hart was the Rey Mysterio of the division was allowed to mix with the singles stars. If you look at his 1989 tenure, he barely wrestles tag matches. If you just look at PPV matches like I did before, you would think Hart Foundation was still going strong. However, when you look at the loop and the Primetime Wrestling, the majority of the matches were usually draws against the midcard name heels like Mr. Perfect, Greg Valentine, Dino Bravo, Honky Tonk Man, Rick Martel etc... I do not think it is just hindsight that lends credence to the Bret Hart was wise beyond his years during his tag tenure. There is enough instances that Vince saw this rare talent of ring generalship par excellence in Bret Hart. Vince's restraint whether it was due to prudence or external circumstances when it came to pushing Bret to singles stardom is one of the best slow-burn pushes ever. Loss's point about how Bret would have been the best touring champ of the 90s if there was such a thing is spot on. Maybe, Loss mentions this in the last third or someone else asserts it, but I want to assert that Bret Hart is the greatest "face vs face" wrestler in history. He fuckin rules as a subtle heel in those type of matches. I want to rewatch the Ironman match with Shawn again (have not seen in a couple years) because I think I will like it even more watching Bret Hart heel it up in his usual subtle fashion now that I have noticed how good Bret performs in the face vs face environment. It is that type of elite ring generalship that Flair and Hart share in common more than anything else. When you have two alpha males like that you can see why they butt heads. It is old they are so similar that's why they don't like each other. I will listen to the last hour when I get a chance, but some really good stuff so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 This was a lot of fun to do. The best thing is no one involved is a stiff, this is good radio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazeUSA Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 I'll have to have a listen here tomorrow, I named my oldest son after Bret Hart after all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Some good discussion here and a good job with so many people on the line. My thought on the "legacy" talking point is that the extent to which we are already in the legacy of Flair is understated. In the 1970s, guys didn't work like Flair. They worked the mat, much slower and more technical. Flair was "bump and move". He probably got it from Ray Stevens and Pat Patterson, but Flair took that next level and popularised it to the point that it became a dominant style. Flair's role in that seismic shift in working style is underplayed because people tend to view wrestling history through a WWF/E prism. In that story, Bret is the guy who turned the main event scene from Hogan and muscle dudes to be more technical work orientated. While there's some truth to that, I honestly think it's overstated: by Bret himself, by fans, by everyone. Savage was more work orientated. FLAIR was champ in 92. But in any case, what's the real legacy of it? Diesel has a run right in the middle of his next period on top. Rock is the champ by 1999. A massively roided up HHH is champ by 2000. Hardly pin up guys for technical wrestling or workrate. What's the net impact? I honestly think it's not a lot more than "Bret was not Hogan". I am not trying to run Bret down by saying that, I just think his importance to the development of wrestling is wildly overstated. Flair's importance in popularizing "bump and move" is incalculable. It's like trying to work out how the Beatles or Bob Dylan exactly influenced rock: it's so deeply embedded in there that it's just part of the very fabric of the genre. I don't think Bret is a guy like that. Loss didn't mention it on this show, but I like the take he made once about Bret in 93-4 being a return to a Backlund-style champ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 This might have been mentioned later in the show, but Bret's time in England was definitely mentioned in his book. He talks about Big Daddy, and Dynamite setting him up with some girl at the Royal Albert Hall. Plus Julie coming over for a while and the two of them having to huddle together because it was so cold with no central heating. This is the only Bret Hart WoS match I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Allen Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 great show! I was a huge Bret Hart fan as a kid and really enjoyed this. Looking forward to listening to more of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Master editing skills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 This had some really cool talking points. I really liked the Cruiserweight comparison to the tag division. Something that wasn't mentioned was how Perfect worked Bret in 89. I know you guys hit on the 91 and 93 matches. To me though I think the matches in 89 are solid to good but don't match the later ones for the most part. I will say that the audience believed in Perfect as a main eventer or near that level. I feel that helped Bret get to the top by working draws with Perfect, also post match Perfect would bitch and bump for Bret. This made Bret look strong post match and positioned him for a singles run.I'm glad this didn't break down into a Flair vs. Bret show. I'm a Flair guy, but I like Bret a lot. One of the talking points about peak Bret being better than peak Flair is an talking point that I can't even see how that's possible. The Undertaker/Bret ONS match really is a classic that isn't discussed ever. If we got Taker tapping out I think it would be better than his Wrestlemania classics. I think Sting belonged on the hottest 4 stars in North America list. The people were hot for Sting, and in 97 did Bret,HBK, or Austin draw a ppv rating like Starcade 97 drew? I don't know the numbers, but Sting was a huge part of the buyrate. When Bret left for WCW I too thought the WWF was fucked. Overall a real fun listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statfreak101 Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Looks like I have something to listen to in the car! Thanks, fellas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Most of Bret's signature moves were offensive moves. Most of Flair's were bumps off specific moves he needed his opponents to do, which made his matches very samey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 I don't really want to rehash this argument but I just don't see how that is true if you follow Flair's feuds with certain people. The matches vs. Steamboat, Funk. Luger, Sting, Vader, and Garvin all share similar elements but are worked in different ways with Flair taking different percentage portions of the match and doing more brawling/wrestling with the match calls for it. Within those feuds, many of the matches that comprise of them are also worked in multiple ways. Yes a figure four and Flair flop is comprised within the match but Flair may use the butterfly suplex vs. Steamboat and never bus it out in the match vs. Funk. Listened to the show yesterday and thought it was a good detail rundown of Bret's career and truly did celebrate him as the great wrestling I think most of us here see him as. The Hart promo did freak me the fuck out also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 I'm 40 mins in and it'll be a spotty journey the rest of the way. I'm not going to either defend Neidhart or bash the Road Warriors. I'm too lazy and apathetic for the one and for the other there's an "aura" thing which really can't exist for someone who didn't start watching wrestling til 90-91. I do want to talk about the tag teams/crusierweight thing. To me that all comes back to meaningless depth. The reason why tag teams were more highly presented in Crockett was two fold. You can't overlook that Mid-Atlantic was traditionally a tag team on top territory so there were fans (and even announcers like Johnny Weaver) who bled that sort of thing. Past that though, they pushed tag teams on top more or let the tag teams interact with the top guys because they had to. Cards were more fluid. The roster was smaller. WWF would have things far more structured throughout the year while Crockett had cards that looked wildly different two nights in a row. There was a lot more need to shake things up than in the WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Islanders is the missing turned WWF team. Someday I will watch a bunch of their matches since they apparently hold up. As for obscure, great Bret matches in the early 90s, the place to look isn't the CVs but the MSG/Boston garden shows. I have a lot of fun living in the opportunity world where Barry is the best ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Bret Hart in WCW=Willie Mays as a Met? WRONG! NO! NO! NO! Mays as a Met is more akin to Hogan's last WWF run. A better sports analogy would be Wayne Gretzky as a New York Ranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 Bret Farve. Vikings. BIG fan of this podcast, boys. Can't wait for "Future Wrestling With The Past" episodes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazeUSA Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 excellent podcast, that guy was cracking me the fk up w/ the Stu impersonations, I was literally about to piss on myself when he was talking about killing rabbits & hiding them in the tub or w/e the hell he was saying! Brets in my top 10 but I def. have Flair way ahead of him like most of you guys do, I think any argument that Brets higher is just silly PLZ DO A PODCAST ON GINO HERNANDEZ & CHRIS ADAMS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 PLZ DO A PODCAST ON GINO HERNANDEZ & CHRIS ADAMS! Everyone participating should do a bunch of blow in tribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 I don't need to do a podcast for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazeUSA Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 PLZ DO A PODCAST ON GINO HERNANDEZ & CHRIS ADAMS! Everyone participating should do a bunch of blow in tribute. LOLLLLL I'd just like to hear others talk/debate what they thought of the guys in the ring & out, I think a round table for the entire wccw stable from the early-late 80's would be interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 PLZ DO A PODCAST ON GINO HERNANDEZ & CHRIS ADAMS! Everyone participating should do a bunch of blow in tribute. Well, if I have to, I'll take one for the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigelow34 Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 Johnny's Stu Hart impression belongs in the podcast Hall of Fame! ***** podcast already out of the gate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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