Loss Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 I thought I'd use this thread to drop info on various matches that I see differently after a second viewing, and also to see if anyone can sway me on the matches I'm a little wishy-washy about. First, I'm curious what people's opinions are on the Bret Hart vs Diesel matches. Which match do you think is better - Royal Rumble or Survivor Series? Survivor Series tends to get more praise, but I liked the work of the Rumble match so much better, even though the booking was atrocious. Also, some of the spots aped in the rematch (Bret's fake out leading to the small package and Bret tying Diesel to the ringpost with his wrist tape specifically) came across much better in the Rumble match. Still, I can be swayed if someone makes a compelling argument. I also have rewatched all of my five-star matches over the last few weeks, along with the borderline matches. These are some I'd add to the exclusive club, and some that I'd take out upon a second viewing. ADD: Nobuhiko Takada vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara (UWF 10/25/90) - Fujiwara's performance in this match is just about as good a performance as I think a wrestler can possibly give. I also think this is one of the two best matches in its style -- and definitely the best at presenting the UWF style as a chess game. El Dandy vs El Satanico (EMLL 12/14/90) - I need to re-watch a lot of the 80s lucha, but right now, this is my pick for best lucha brawl of all time. War Games (WCW Wrestle War 05/17/92) - I'm not sure why I didn't go all the way on this one before, but I think this is the best American match of the decade. It has been discussed to death and I think everyone knows the strong points well, so I don't feel the need to go into a ton of detail, but in terms of great ringwork and storyline nuance/payoffs, it's an all-time classic. Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda (FMW 05/05/96) - The best death match I've ever seen, and the one that really shows what the matches truly are at their core more than anything -- selling, teasing and building to a few select big moments. This has the same drama as the big Onita matches mixed in with superior athleticism and the best post-match selling of any match I've ever seen. Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura (RINGS 01/22/97) - The very best shootstyle match of all time, or at least between 1990 and 1997. Spectacular matwork on display here. REMOVE: Silver King, El Texano & Gran Hamada vs Negro Casas, Dr. Wagner Jr. & Rambo (UWA 02/29/92) - Still a wonderful match, but not quite "epic" enough to reach the absolute upper tier. Still, this and the 5/22/92 six-man from All Japan are my favorite trios matches of the decade so far. Jushin Liger vs El Samurai (NJPW 04/30/92) - Still a classic, but falls just short of the full monty for me, mainly because Liger's 2/97 match with Otani was worlds ahead of it. I would still put this match in the top three or four New Japan matches of the 90s at worst, so it's not a huge slip. It's just that I don't think it's quite at that GOAT level anymore. Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 07/29/93) - Again, still a classic, but it lacks the awesome finishing stretch of the best All Japan matches. I actually love the decisiveness of the finish here, but I wish it had been built up a little bit more before it happened. It's enough to take this match down a very small peg. This makes my 5* match list for the 90s this from 1990-1997 this for now. 22 matches, with some of them I'm re-thinking and I'm not sure about yet. Expect this to shrink a little, but I don't think I'll be adding anything else to this group. El Dandy vs Angel Azteca (EMLL 06/01/90) Nobuhiko Takada vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara (UWF 10/25/90) El Dandy vs El Satanico (EMLL 12/14/90) War Games (WCW 05/17/92) El Dandy vs Negro Casas (CMLL 07/03/92) Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki & Dynamite Kansai (AJW 11/26/92) Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori (AJW 04/02/93) Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/03/93) Espectrito vs Mascarita Sagrada (AAA 03/12/94) Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori vs Aja Kong & Bull Nakano (AJW 03/27/94) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 06/03/94) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 04/15/95) Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/09/95) Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda (FMW 05/05/96) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/06/96) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 01/20/97) Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura (RINGS 01/22/97) Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 02/09/97) Yuki Ishikawa vs Daisuke Ikeda (BattlARTS 04/15/97) Yoshiko Tamura vs Toshie Uematsu (GAEA 07/19/97) El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (CMLL 09/19/97) Bracito de Oro, Cicloncito Ramirez & Mascarita Magica vs Damiancito El Guerrero, El Fierito & Pierrothito (CMLL 10/03/97) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenjo Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 So is the end objective here to just have your top 500 matches of the 90's listed? Or to rank them from 1 to 500? Or maybe just split them into tiers and then rank the top 100 perhaps? There's not going to be any difference in quality between #363 and #368 for example. Any particular reason why you chose 500? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 I prefer Survivor Series, because the storytelling is a bit better. If you have Bret not breaking on a 5 count, because it's no DQ. Not to mention all the cool leg attacks by Bret. The best is the table spot though. This is Bret at his best incorporating new and innovative spots that are trending in a logically fashion. This leads to the awesome surprise finish. The run ins drag the Royal Rumble match down. I would have to rewatch all 3 to be sure, because I remember the King of the Ring one being pretty awesome too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chess Knight Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 You gave Mascarita Sagrada v. Espectrito five stars, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 You gave Mascarita Sagrada v. Espectrito five stars, no? Good catch, yes I did. Although that is one I am re-thinking and will likely drop a notch or so. Edited the post to add it back in for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 So is the end objective here to just have your top 500 matches of the 90's listed? Or to rank them from 1 to 500? Or maybe just split them into tiers and then rank the top 100 perhaps? There's not going to be any difference in quality between #363 and #368 for example. Any particular reason why you chose 500? Yes, the goal is to rank them all in countdown fashion. Believe it or not, I have actually racked my brain over the difference between #363 and #368, as you put it. I want to make sure I've carefully considered the placement of everything on the list. For those of you who think the full yearbooks are too much of a commitment, I'm going to attempt to persuade someone to release something with all of them in countdown format. *ahem* I chose 500 because less than that felt like too many notable matches wouldn't get a nod, and more than that felt like too many matches. I'm still laboring over it and will work in 1998 and 1999 when the time comes, so this is a long way from completion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 You can say that this is just a list but I honestly feel like when Loss completes the 1998 and 1999 yearbook and watches some footage and adjusts his rankings the final output will be pretty important in the scheme of ranking matches for a few reasons. 1. Meltzer is always sighted as the judge to hold star ratings by. He seemed to watch the widest variety of stuff and ranked a lot of matches throughout the 90's. Opinions are just opinions but Loss' list will at least give a counterpoint that you can compare to the Meltzer rankings. 2. I am a big fan of revision. Its just something I appreciate doing. Loss at the end of the project will have watched at a bare minimum of 1200 hours of 90's footage in probably around 3.5 years of time. This would be the equivalent of watching over 1 hour a day during the current timeframe. That amount of watching condensed in that tight a timeframe allows you to compare numerous matches across the whole decade and it gives you a significant sample size to be able to adequately compare/contrast. If I am able to plow through the yearbooks, I hope to be able to compile my own list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 For those of you who think the full yearbooks are too much of a commitment, I'm going to attempt to persuade someone to release something with all of them in countdown format. *ahem* I would love to be able to buy those yearbooks. They are amazing. I just don't have the money to do so. My wife would murder me if she found out I dropped $900 on all those things. It would be aaaaaamazing if you guys compiled the top 500 into one set. Count me in as a buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 You wouldn't have to drop $900 on them. Also, I give specials for multiple sets and have 1sold parts 1 and 2 for each yearbook for those short on cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 Did anything happen with this? Sounded pretty intriguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 Here's the deal. I have the matches ranked. But it's just of those on the yearbooks, and I felt bad saying "of the 90s" when there's still a good chunk of stuff out there I haven't seen. It's a quagmire I find myself in often, and I end up stuck at the gate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 That's what you get for doing a project realistic enough to actually be finalized instead of watching everything that made tape everywhere ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 Here's the deal. I have the matches ranked. But it's just of those on the yearbooks, and I felt bad saying "of the 90s" when there's still a good chunk of stuff out there I haven't seen. It's a quagmire I find myself in often, and I end up stuck at the gate. I'm kinda in the same boat. I really want to watch all of the 80s sets in roughly chronological order and then all of the yearbooks. But I can't really start until Crockett gets released. And WWE redux. And whatever else might be in the pipeline (I'm probably the only person really hoping 80s Joshi gets made). Now peachchaos came out with that 79 yearbook and well I HAVE to get that shit as soon as the discs are available. Basically my gathering of and organization of footage is how I'm preparing for retirement But, Loss, please post the top 500 of the yearbooks and just call it that if you feel more comfortable with it. Selfishly I want to see it as someone who has all of the yearbooks and also respects your opinions on match rankings. Or if you don't want to post it just PM it to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 Here's the deal. I have the matches ranked. But it's just of those on the yearbooks, and I felt bad saying "of the 90s" when there's still a good chunk of stuff out there I haven't seen. It's a quagmire I find myself in often, and I end up stuck at the gate. But, Loss, please post the top 500 of the yearbooks and just call it that if you feel more comfortable with it. Selfishly I want to see it as someone who has all of the yearbooks and also respects your opinions on match rankings. Or if you don't want to post it just PM it to me What he said. We're happy to help find ways to caveat and asterisk the list, but it would be great to see that perspective from someone who's already been through all of the Yearbooks. Doesn't even have to be Best of the 1990s. It could simply be Best of the Yearbooks -- 1990s Edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 Here's the deal. I have the matches ranked. But it's just of those on the yearbooks, and I felt bad saying "of the 90s" when there's still a good chunk of stuff out there I haven't seen. It's a quagmire I find myself in often, and I end up stuck at the gate. But, Loss, please post the top 500 of the yearbooks and just call it that if you feel more comfortable with it. Selfishly I want to see it as someone who has all of the yearbooks and also respects your opinions on match rankings. Or if you don't want to post it just PM it to me What he said. We're happy to help find ways to caveat and asterisk the list, but it would be great to see that perspective from someone who's already been through all of the Yearbooks. Doesn't even have to be Best of the 1990s. It could simply be Best of the Yearbooks -- 1990s Edition. Exactly. Whether the Yearbooks are on permanent pause or not, a culmination on the contents on the first ten (encompassing the entire decade) would be a tremendous reference for us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 I haven't looked at the list in a good while. I'll take a look and do any needed clean-up, then post it. I hoped to eventually have a new review for every match, but if I do all of that, I'm not sure I'll ever get out of 90s wrestling, and I am ready to move on. So I'll just drop the list and then answer any questions anyone has after doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 What's the best Loss lucha match of the 90s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenjo Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 You've already done one review for everything on the Yearbooks. I know that originally you were planning on releasing an e-book with detailed reviews of all the matches. But that's a ton of work so it's probably best for your sanity to just put out the rankings and move on. It doesn't matter if you're not 100% happy with it because you can edit it later on if you like. Plus it'll be the best top 500 matches of the 90's list out there guaranteed. I'm planning on completing my own Top 900 of the 90's list next year. It'll be along the lines of 'here are matches 701-725' then having the 25 matches in that range listed. So everything is in the right type of place. Ranking a top 100 for an individual year is tough enough, and that's for stuff in recent memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 Cue frequent checks to see if the list is posted yet. Also, back in 2013 you seemed pretty gung ho about the '90s and were going to do a series of podcasts covering each month. I guess BTS kinda does that now anyway, but I'd still be interested in hearing your thoughts on all things Yearbook-related. Plus I was set for September '95. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 We'll start posting 100 matches a day at Place To Be Nation tomorrow. We'll start with #500 and count down to #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Here's the deal. I have the matches ranked. But it's just of those on the yearbooks, and I felt bad saying "of the 90s" when there's still a good chunk of stuff out there I haven't seen. It's a quagmire I find myself in often, and I end up stuck at the gate. (I'm probably the only person really hoping 80s Joshi gets made). You're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 What is the criteria? Because what I love about a good match is the psychology and the story and the energy. I think we need to be more specific. Of course I enjoy great work. But when there is no story it's hard to get excited for a random match. Even squash matches made sense to me because they showcased talent. Anyway. .. My nominee that nobody should argue is Mr. Perfect vs. Chico Santana on SNME. It's the one on the DVD set of SNME. Can't forget Bobby Heenan. I mean how do u rate managers. It has to be on the entertainment factor and the emotions they bring out of you. If they can't make u care about what's going on then they suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 How many matches are from American promotions? I wanna see those and I bet there's an interest in how those ranked compared to each other. So put the promotion in your spreadsheet and filter out the foreign shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 You won't get any argument from me on those basic ideas. As far as American stuff goes, I think you'll find a good cross-section of styles and approaches -- stall-a-thons and spotfests, Hogan main events and juniors matches, singles and tags, big shows and tiny shows ... it's pretty much all represented in some form. I'll post here when it's posted at PTBN with a link. EDIT: I'll also say here that everything I considered ****1/4 or higher is somewhere on the list. After that, I went more with passion picks than matches that I think are objectively the best. (I know that sentence will open a can of worms, but hear me out.) So if I considered a match **** but felt like it wasn't particularly memorable or unique, I bumped it to make room for a match that may not be quite as good, but that I still consider really good and almost at that level. So rather than a list that comes from the head only or from the heart only, I tried to make it more of a mix, leaning toward heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Part 1 is up! #500 - #451 http://placetobenation.com/countdown-top-500-matches-of-the-90s-500-451/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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