Least deserving Meltzer 5-star match

[khawk20]

What about the other side of the coin? What matches has Meltzer panned or lukewarmly reviewed that people think he sold short?

Every AWA match he ever actually watched would be my guess.

[DR Ackermann]

I think this is a full list. Plus it has the matches that almost got 5 Stars, and you can go in and look at each year individually as well.

 

http://www.profightdb.com/top-rated-matches.html

 

There is also a list of the worst ratings he gave out.

 

http://www.profightdb.com/worst-rated-matches.html

[Loss]

Right off the bat, I see quite a few AJPW TV matches missing.

[DR Ackermann]

Yeah, there are only 15 Misawa matches on that list and I think he has given like 24 Misawa matches 5 stars.

[TravJ1979]

I believe this to be a complete list through the end of 1994. There are a few matches like Hokuto v. Kandori that had no mention of 5 stars at the time of the show, but he may have listed it as such later on. This list also doesn't include "reported" or matches rated 5 stars by readers (at least to the best I could discern the difference from the way it was written).

 

Kazuo Yamazaki vs. Nobuhiko Takada (UWF 12/5/84)

Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs. Dory Funk & Terry Funk (AJPW 12/8/84)

Tiger Mask II vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi (AJPW 3/9/85)

Lioness Asuka vs. Jaguar Yokota (All Japan Women 8/22/85)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichrio Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (All Japan 1/28/86)

Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA Battle of the Belts 2 (CWF 2/14/86)

Sheepherders vs. Fantastics (JCP 4/19/86)

Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA World Wide 1/20/87)

Chigusa Nagayo vs. Lioness Asuka (All Japan Women 2/26/87)

Keiji Mutoh & Shiro Koshinaka vs. Akira Maeda & Nobuhiko Takada (New Japan 3/20/87)

Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (JCP 4/11/87)

Lioness Asuka/Mika Komatsu/Kazue Nagahori/Mitsuko Nishiwaki/Etsuko Mita/Sachiko Nakamura vs. Chigusa Nagayo/Yumiko Hotta/Mika Takahashi/Mika Suzuki/Yachiyo Hirata/Yumi Ogura (About 17:30 of 50:00 Shown - All Japan Women 12/6/87)

Toshiaki Kawada & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (All Japan RWTL 12/16/88)

Genichrio Tenryu, Toshiaki Kawada & Samson Fuyuki vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Yoshiaki Yatsu/Masanobu Fuchi (All Japan 1/28/89)

Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (NWA Chi-Town Rumble 2/20/89)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (WCW/NWA - Landover, MD 3/18/89) (Actually gave it 6*)

Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (2/3 falls, Clash 6 4/2/89)

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (NWA WrestleWar '89 5/7/89)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu (AJPW 6/5/89)

Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk ("I Quit" Match, Clash 9 11/15/89)

Jushin Liger v. Naoki Sano (New Japan 1/31/90)

Mitsuharu Misawa v. Jumbo Tsuruta (All Japan 6/8/90)

Jumbo Tsuruta/Akira Taue/Masanobu Fuchi v. Mitsuharu Misawa/Toshiaki Kawada/Kenta Kobashi (All Japan 10/19/90)

Bull Nakano v. Akira Hokuto (AJW 1/4/91)

Bull Nakano v. Yumiko Hotta (Cage Match)(AJW 1/23/91)

R. Flair/L. Zbyszko/B. Windham/Sid Vicious v. Sting/B. Pillman/R. Steiner/S. Steiner (War Games)(WCW WrestleWar 2/24/91)

Mitsuharu Misawa/Toshiaki Kawada/Kenta Kobashi v. Jumbo Tsuruta/Akira Taue/Masanobu Fuchi (All Japan 4/20/91)

Cactus Jack v. Eddie Gilbert (2/3 Falls)(TWA 8/3/91)

Toshiyo Yamada/Manami Toyota v. Yumiko Hotta/Suzuka Minami (AJW 3/7/92)

Kyoko Inoue v. Manami Toyota (AJW WrestleMarinpiad IV 4/25/92)

Jushin Liger v. El Samurai (New Japan 4/30/92)

Atsushi Onita/Tarzan Goto/El Hijo Del Santo v. Negro Casas/Horace Boulder/Tim Patterson (FMW in the USA 5/16/92)

Sting/Windham/Rhodes/Steamboat/Koloff v. Austin/Rude/Anderson/Eaton/Zbyszko (War Games)(WCW WrestleWar 5/17/92)

Jumbo Tsuruta/Masanobu Fuchi/Akira Taue v. Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi/Toshiaki Kawada (All Japan 5/22/92)

Dan Kroffat/Doug Furnas v. Kenta Kobashi/Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (Extended Version) (All Japan 5/25/92)

Kenta Kobashi/Tsuyoshi Kikuchi v. Masanobu Fuchi/Yoshinari Ogawa (All Japan 7/5/92)

Manami Toyota v. Toshiyo Yamada (AJW 8/15/92)

Rey Mysterio Jr./Super Calo/Winners v. Psicosis/Heavy Metal/Picudo (AAA 1/29/93)

Kyoko Inoue/Takako Inoue v. Cutie Suzuki/Mayumi Ozaki (AJW 4/2/93)

Dynamite Kansai/Mayumi Ozaki v. Manami Toyota/Toshiyo Yamada (AJW 4/11/93)

Kenta Kobashi v. Toshiaki Kawada (All Japan 4/14/93)

Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi/Jun Akiyama v. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue/Yoshinari Ogawa (All Japan 7/2/93)

Stan Hansen v. Kenta Kobashi (All Japan 7/29/93)

D. Kansai/C. Suzuki/M. Ozaki/H. Fukuoka v. Aja Kong/S. Hasegawa/K. Inoue/T. Inoue (Thunder Queen)(JWP 7/31/93)

Steve Williams v. Kenta Kobashi (All Japan 8/31/93)

Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue v. Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi (All Japan Tag League 12/3/93)

Manami Toyota/Toshiyo Yamada v. Dynamite Kansai/Mayumi Ozaki (AJW 12/6/93)

Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi/Giant Baba v. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue/Masanobu Fuchi (All Japan 1/29/94)

Shawn Michaels v. Razor Ramon (Ladder Match)(Wrestlemania X 3/20/94)

Wild Pegasus v. Great Sasuke (Super J Cup Finals 4/16/94)

Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi v. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue (All Japan 5/21/94)

Mitsuharu Misawa v. Toshiaki Kawada (All Japan 6/3/94)

Jushin Liger v. Great Sasuke (New Japan 7/8/94)

Bret Hart v. Owen Hart (Cage Match)(Summerslam 8/29/94)

El Hijo del Santo/Octagon v. Eddy Guerrero/Art Barr (Double Mask v. Double Hair)(AAA 11/6/94)

Aja Kong v. Manami Toyota (AJW 11/20/94)

Rey Mysterio Jr. v. Juventud Guerrera (AAA 11/30/94)

[NintendoLogic]

Yeah, he gave Hokuto/Kandori ****3/4 in his initial review of Dreamslam. He actually considered the Double Inoue tag to be the MOTN. I believe he bumped it up to ***** in the 1993 year-end wrap-up issue.

[Jimmy Redman]

What about the other side of the coin? What matches has Meltzer panned or lukewarmly reviewed that people think he sold short?

I've already mentioned Hogan/Andre.

 

Cena/Umaga he only gave ****, which I found ridiculous just when you compare it to all of the WWE main events he has rated higher than that.

 

Actually, it wasn't rated, but I remember Dave beat the crap out of the really awesome Cena/Show Smackdown match from 27/2/09, called it (well Cena) "first day of wrestling school bad" and I was left wondering how a guy who hates selling could become such an opinion former on pro wrestling.

[jdw]

The fact that he only gave Misawa/Kobashi from 1/20/97 ****3/4 kind of rustled my jimmies.

That was based on the 20 minutes JIP version on TV. Dave never rated the full version, if he even saw it back then.

 

John

[jdw]

Yeah, he gave Hokuto/Kandori ****3/4 in his initial review of Dreamslam. He actually considered the Double Inoue tag to be the MOTN. I believe he bumped it up to ***** in the 1993 year-end wrap-up issue.

This was a bit of a strange one as he had a hand held set of ratings early, then the TV version, then later saw the commercial version. The TV version wasn't short... perhaps chopped off 5 minutes, maybe a little more. It certainly wasn't the 1992 Toyota vs Kyoko or 1985 Jaguar vs Lioness massive clip job-o-rama. But I do think as he thought more about the Hokuto-Kandori after seeing the commercial, he eventually moved it up to ***** in his mind.

[NintendoLogic]

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that Dave would bash Cena for selling too much.

[Jimmy Redman]

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that Dave would bash Cena for selling too much.

You would think so, but I swear to God.

 

The match was on Smackdown 27/2/09. When my WO sub goes through in the next 24 hours I can dig out the actual review.

 

But the gist of it was that "Cena looked first-day-of-wrestling-school bad and Big Show couldn't carry him." Now, I'd understand if Cena had looked particularly sloppy or uncoordinated during the match. But he didn't. I could understand if he was blowing off offense or doing something else egregiously bad psychologically. But he wasn't. The entire structure of the match was "Show hits Cena, Cena sells, Show hits him some more, Cena sells some more." That's literally it, it was one of those matches you have to watch in a bubble because Show is treated like the most impervious monster on earth and it works perfectly if you ignore all the other times where he isn't. It was a lot like Show vs Sheamus from HIAC (and for what it's worth Dave didn't like that match either until they started kicking out of finishers).

 

The only thing Cena did in the match was sell. A lot, and often, and well. In the absence of literally anything else I can possibly think of on Cena's end that would give Dave the impression that he was THAT bad, I can only assume that Dave was mad because Cena was laying around so much. For the Big Show. And I get that it was kind of inconsistent with WWE canon, but Jesus.

[tim]

Ha. I love that match and thought both looked phenomenal.

[slabinski611]

Two things that have always bugged me about theFlair/Steamboat and Flair/Funk matches from 89 that Dave rated.

 

First, am I the only one who thought Flair/Steamboat from wrestlewar was the least of their 89 series. I think the other four matches they had were off the charts with the clash match being the best but I know I've seen claims of the wrestlewar match not just being the best of the series, but the greatest of all time.

 

Second, am I the only one who puts the GAB match ahead of the I quit match ? I mean, I think it's a very good match but the GAB match is much more heated and has the big brawl at the end.

[Jimmy Redman]

I prefer GAB to the Clash.

[NintendoLogic]

The Bash match is way better. I Quit matches tend to suck as a rule.

[WingedEagle]

I Quits do generally suck. Flair & Funk simply overcame that. But the Bash was still a cut above, even without the insane post-match.

[khawk20]

Two things that have always bugged me about theFlair/Steamboat and Flair/Funk matches from 89 that Dave rated.

 

First, am I the only one who thought Flair/Steamboat from wrestlewar was the least of their 89 series. I think the other four matches they had were off the charts with the clash match being the best but I know I've seen claims of the wrestlewar match not just being the best of the series, but the greatest of all time.

 

Second, am I the only one who puts the GAB match ahead of the I quit match ? I mean, I think it's a very good match but the GAB match is much more heated and has the big brawl at the end.

I'm with you on both.

[peachchaos]

All the Flair/Steamboat and Flair/Funk matches from '89 are Five Star Matches.

 

Funk/Steamboat is nearly on that level. What a year.

[Loss]

I agree that Wrestle War '89 is the least of the series. I remember an old thread at Chris Coey's board years ago where John McAdam argued that what elevated the match to that level was that everyone knew it would be the final encounter and that it was "for keeps". I do think it's a fantastic match, and calling what I'd call a ****1/2 match the least of a series of matches speaks volumes about how great I think that series is. The video to "The Final Countdown" on TV that hyped Wrestle War was also sensational and really hyped me for the match at the time. But if we're looking at extraneous factors, I think the atmosphere at Chi-Town Rumble between the electric crowd, the lighting and Flair's amazing trumpeted entrance is pretty chilling. I also loved the "fuck you Dusty Rhodes" finish. It's the shortest of the three matches, but it's also the most action-packed. I alternate between that and Clash VI on which I prefer. The Clash is probably a better technical masterpiece, but Chi-Town is the better "event", if that makes sense.

[Timbo Slice]

I think it's interesting that sentiment has made the Chi-Town match the favorite. It's weird to call a match that goes that long a sprint, but it felt like one. They were all brilliant. It's splitting hairs in a lot of ways. Flair even said in his interview with Austin (rather quickly, I might add) that Chicago was his favorite, and it makes sense. It started off the feud, everything clicked, hot crowd, all that.

 

I found it interesting that he went the full monty on the 8/22/85 Jaguar/Lioness match when the Chig/Devil match is regarded as the better match. Jaguar tearing apart Asuka for the entire match was definitely fun, but Chig and Devil put on a 40 minute slugfest with a pretty awesome ending for the time.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I Quits do generally suck.

Except for the greatest match of all time.

 

 

[ohtani's jacket]

I found it interesting that he went the full monty on the 8/22/85 Jaguar/Lioness match when the Chig/Devil match is regarded as the better match. Jaguar tearing apart Asuka for the entire match was definitely fun, but Chig and Devil put on a 40 minute slugfest with a pretty awesome ending for the time.

I think this was based on the TV versions.

[MikeCampbell]

I found it interesting that he went the full monty on the 8/22/85 Jaguar/Lioness match when the Chig/Devil match is regarded as the better match. Jaguar tearing apart Asuka for the entire match was definitely fun, but Chig and Devil put on a 40 minute slugfest with a pretty awesome ending for the time.

I think this was based on the TV versions.

 

The full versions weren't available until they aired on AJW classics, and then it was crystal clear which was better.

[Loss]

Yes, and that was in 2003.

[slabinski611]

I think this has been asked already but are there any matches that deserve the ***** treatment that Dave has underrated ?

 

Personally, I would give the full 5 to Hart/Austin from Survivor Series even though I put the WM match slightly ahead of it. Also, While I may be alone, I have no problem giving 5 to Enforcers/Steamboat/Rhodes from the Clash. It's on my short list for favorite U.S. tags ever. I don't recall seeing Arn gel with another partner the way he gelled here with Zbysko and that includes Tully. I'm not saying Zbysko was a better tag partner overall but he was in this specific match.

 

Last, I don't see Misawa/Kobashi 1/20/97 on the list that was posted. Did Dave really not give that ***** ? Everyone has their own opinions but that is one of those I think about when GOAT threads get started.