Loss Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm probably the wrong person to ask, only because I don't think there has been a five-star match in the U.S. in the past 25 years. And I'm not sure there has ever been one in WWE at any point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm probably the wrong person to ask, only because I don't think there has been a five-star match in the U.S. in the past 25 years. And I'm not sure there has ever been one in WWE at any point. This is interesting to me, actually because now that you mention it, I think I gauge matches differently depending on which promotion they're from. I don't have one all-encompassing scale that I use for every match from every federation from every era, if that makes sense. In example, when I watch Puroresu, especially NJPW lately, I'm going off of ring work alone. I'm usually watching the match or a show in a vacuum, not following along week-to-week & keeping up with the angles. When watching WWE, the commentary can alter my enjoyment of a match. The payoff to an angle can too. The Japanese commentary, I don't understand. So it can't take me out of a match. Also, one thing that I've noticed from watching Lucha is that the referee matters a lot. It's hard for me to get into a match when the ref is really old & slow. Earl Hebner used to be really guilty of that. The super extreme slow count. Used to drive me nuts! That might make a good discussion, or is probably already a discussion somewhere if I used the search feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnival Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm probably the wrong person to ask, only because I don't think there has been a five-star match in the U.S. in the past 25 years. And I'm not sure there has ever been one in WWE at any point. Whoa. Last American match you have at five? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Flair vs Steamboat at Clash 6. War Games at Wrestle War '92 comes close but doesn't quite hit the mark for me. Flair-Steamboat had a torchbearer quality to the work that no American feud has had since. I can't think of an American rivalry since then that has felt like the two very best guys in the business going at it, not just their promotion or country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Given it's placement in the DVDVR AWA Poll, what about the Bock-Hennig draw? I confess to being unsure of how Dave rated it at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I'm looking forward to watching that again. I remember thinking it felt really dated by 1986 standards at one point, although I still thought it was a great match. But I'm willing to admit I may have been wrong on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Given it's placement in the DVDVR AWA Poll, what about the Bock-Hennig draw? I confess to being unsure of how Dave rated it at the time. Who cares how Meltzer rated it. That is one of the greatest matches I have ever seen, American or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Given it's placement in the DVDVR AWA Poll, what about the Bock-Hennig draw? I confess to being unsure of how Dave rated it at the time. Who cares how Meltzer rated it. That is one of the greatest matches I have ever seen, American or otherwise. Well, that's sort of what the question was. What matches did Dave not give 5 snowflakes to that he probably should have. Given how much you love the match, if it didn't get 5 stars it would end up being one of your answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Since 1989 I have given Cena vs. Lesnar from Extreme Rules, Punk vs. Cena from MITB and the two Bret-Austin matches 5 stars. There is probably more, but I am slowly re-watching things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 The main reason I think Bret and Owen was overrated at the time is because I doubt Meltzer re watched it after his first viewing. When i first saw the match, I was caught up in the drama of who was going to win. I used to watch wrestling like a sport and get emotionally caught up in the action. i was buzzing when it ended thinking it was the best match I've ever seen. Mainly because they built a bout with some great escape attempts which were believable and I didn't know who was going to win. The next day I couldn't wait to watch the match again, as like I said I love it. God was that a mistake, it was the biggest disappointment I can remember. Slow plodding and poor use of the cage, totally different experience than my first viewing. This is the only match I can think of, where knowing who wins changes the viewing experience so much. I believe Meltzer saw it once like me, did his write up and never watched it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I found it interesting that he went the full monty on the 8/22/85 Jaguar/Lioness match when the Chig/Devil match is regarded as the better match. Jaguar tearing apart Asuka for the entire match was definitely fun, but Chig and Devil put on a 40 minute slugfest with a pretty awesome ending for the time. I think this was based on the TV versions. The full versions weren't available until they aired on AJW classics, and then it was crystal clear which was better. I don't even think he went Full Monty on the Jaguar-Lioness match since he really wasn't doing TV reviews in 1985, nor got around writing up AJW reviews until the 1990. He may have said it was great and off the charts, but not sure if he went *****. Seem to recall Bowdren had it high on his 80s list in the 1989 Yearbook. Doubt Jeff looked to comp the "match time" with the "air time". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Last, I don't see Misawa/Kobashi 1/20/97 on the list that was posted. Did Dave really not give that ***** ? Everyone has their own opinions but that is one of those I think about when GOAT threads get started. Pretty sure I mentioned in the thread: this was based on the TV version, which was the last 20 minutes of the 40+ minute match. Not that it stopped him from giving out ***** before, but this one he went to ****3/4 on. Don't recall the reasons, though it did come a month after 12/06/96, and that was pretty fresh in the mind as a ***** match. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 The match I think should be up for discussion is Bret Hart Vs. Steve Austin at Wrestlemania. Personally I prefer the Survivor Series match, don't get me wrong I like the match. But a large part of the match is where they take a pedestrian walk around the arena and then the back to the ring. For the double turn and it's place in history for making Austin, I can see why people like it. But as a wrestling match, I find it overrated and the brawling is just so boring. I will say the ending is one of my favourite ending to any match, just wish it was on the Survivor series match instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Honestly I think the Flair v. Steamer Clash VI match ages much more poorly than Bock v. Hennig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 The main reason I think Bret and Owen was overrated at the time is because I doubt Meltzer re watched it after his first viewing. When i first saw the match, I was caught up in the drama of who was going to win. I used to watch wrestling like a sport and get emotionally caught up in the action. i was buzzing when it ended thinking it was the best match I've ever seen. Mainly because they built a bout with some great escape attempts which were believable and I didn't know who was going to win. The next day I couldn't wait to watch the match again, as like I said I love it. God was that a mistake, it was the biggest disappointment I can remember. Slow plodding and poor use of the cage, totally different experience than my first viewing. This is the only match I can think of, where knowing who wins changes the viewing experience so much. I believe Meltzer saw it once like me, did his write up and never watched it again. I don't think this is any great fault of Meltzer's. There's nothing that says the proper way to watch and rate a match is multiple viewings with an analytical eye. Judging a match by what you thought when you watched it live is a perfectly valid way to do it. Plus Dave as we all know is really big on judging things solely in context and not trying to re-watch or re-rate matches after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 The main reason I think Bret and Owen was overrated at the time is because I doubt Meltzer re watched it after his first viewing. When i first saw the match, I was caught up in the drama of who was going to win. I used to watch wrestling like a sport and get emotionally caught up in the action. i was buzzing when it ended thinking it was the best match I've ever seen. Mainly because they built a bout with some great escape attempts which were believable and I didn't know who was going to win. The next day I couldn't wait to watch the match again, as like I said I love it. God was that a mistake, it was the biggest disappointment I can remember. Slow plodding and poor use of the cage, totally different experience than my first viewing. This is the only match I can think of, where knowing who wins changes the viewing experience so much. I believe Meltzer saw it once like me, did his write up and never watched it again. I don't think this is any great fault of Meltzer's. There's nothing that says the proper way to watch and rate a match is multiple viewings with an analytical eye. Judging a match by what you thought when you watched it live is a perfectly valid way to do it. Plus Dave as we all know is really big on judging things solely in context and not trying to re-watch or re-rate matches after the fact. I agree, I was just pointing out how a match at the time could get such a high rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Didn't he go 5 on a clipped Kawada/Kobashi fromthe '93 CC? I though with clipping it was around 10-12 minutes and he touted it as a high end, modern Flair-Steamboat. A little heavy given how little of the match we got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravJ1979 Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 I don't even think he went Full Monty on the Jaguar-Lioness match since he really wasn't doing TV reviews in 1985, nor got around writing up AJW reviews until the 1990. He may have said it was great and off the charts, but not sure if he went *****. He did give it the full boat. I no longer have my collection as to double check, but it was there. When I was painstakingly looking through old WON's page by page to help Keith_H32 with his WON 5 star matches comps (from where I pulled that previous list in this post), this was listed. In Bowden's Top 100 of the 80's list from the yearbook, Dave gave the 12 woman AJW tag from 12/87 the # 1 spot on his list and called it the greatest match he had seen live up to that point. Regarding those comps, here are some matches that were added as bonuses, but not on Dave's 5 star list: Tiger Mask v. Dynamite Kid (NJPW; 8/5/82) Tiger Mask v. Dynamite Kid (NJPW; 4/21/83) Sgt. Slaughter v. The Iron Sheik (WWF - Boot Camp Match; 6/16/84) Ted Dibiase v. Hacksaw Duggan (Mid South - No DQ, LLT, Tuxedo, Coal Miner's Glove on a Poll, Cage Match; 3/22/85) Tully Blanchard v. Magnum T.A. (NWA - Starrcade, I Quit Match; 11/28/85) Curt Hennig v. Nick Bockwinkel (AWA on ESPN 12/31/86; Taped 11/21/86) El Hijo Del Santo v. Negro Casas (WWA - Mask v. Hair; 7/19/87) Stan Lane/Tom Pritchard v. Bobby Fulton/Jackie Fulton (Barbwire Cage Match)(SMW Fire on the Mountain 8/8/92) - Given 5 from a reader. Terry Funk v. Eddie Gilbert (Texas Death Match)(WWA 11/14/92) Akira Hokuto v. Shinobu Kandori (AJW Dreamslam 4/2/93) Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi v. Steve Williams/Johnny Ace (All Japan 12/10/94) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yeah, of those bonuses, those are plenty of "5-star" matches there. Good lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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