NintendoLogic Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Even if what HHH said didn't hurt Bryan, why risk it? What good could come from calling him a B+ player who isn't world champion material? Why not just say that he doesn't fit their vision of a corporate champion and leave it at that? For me, the first sign that the Bryan saga wasn't going to have the happy ending everyone wanted was the opening segment of the first post-Summerslam Raw when Stephanie kicked him out of the building and he left without incident. Can you imagine someone WWE was serious about pushing doing that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 It's more that people see the surface level stuff and think "This guy is a wrestler? He's short and kind of a geek", then HHH reinforces that thought by mentioning those things in a promo. Then the guy has a title match and loses. So I guess HHH was right all along. The bad guys won and were correct. Wrestling is depressing. I'm about to go do something else.But no one thought that. Not one human fucking being went "Well, HHH is right." I 100% guarantee to you that at least one human being did. I know more than one person who sees Bryan exactly how the heels portray him to be - too small, ugly beard, not top guy material - and they are exactly the type of fan who still pops for Hunter when he comes out and thinks he's a star and some kind of badass. They absolutely buy into things that he says, especially when he's booked to be proven right. The idea that everyone can see through that kind of thing, or wants to, is overly optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 But no one thought that. Not one human fucking being went "Well, HHH is right." I 100% guarantee to you that at least one human being did. I know more than one person who sees Bryan exactly how the heels portray him to be - too small, ugly beard, not top guy material Yea but how many of them felt that way before the whole Bryan vs Authority angle started? There's always going to be people who grew up with guys like Hogan & Warrior who aren't going to see anyone as a star unless they're a big muscled up guy. To be honest with you, I have a hard time buying smaller guys in main events unless they have really good offense to make up for it. Bryan always managed to hit that threshold, CM Punk not all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Yes, but the point is, why then would you draw attention to his shortcomings? Why point them out at all, even as a "lie"? Why not protect him and try to change the minds of those who aren't convinced by him, instead of proving them right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 It's more that people see the surface level stuff and think "This guy is a wrestler? He's short and kind of a geek", then HHH reinforces that thought by mentioning those things in a promo. Then the guy has a title match and loses. So I guess HHH was right all along. The bad guys won and were correct. Wrestling is depressing. I'm about to go do something else.But no one thought that. Not one human fucking being went "Well, HHH is right." No one may have "thought" it, but how many times do you take what anyone says in a promo as a shoot? There are characters that you, me and other fans get behind for whatever reason. If along the way you're told that they're garbage and then the booking backs it up, you're going to lose faith and interest in their progress and look for someone else to get behind. If every episode of Raw from Manias 13 to 14 ended or featured Austin called a worthless redneck and laid out rather than stunning someone and closing with glass breaking the period from 14 on might not have drawn quite as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Someone obviously believed it, or Daniel Bryan would be the top draw in the company right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheGreatPuma Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 It is risky to do what they're doing with Bryan -- Hopefully things will turn out for the best .. If you look throughout history and current times there is a law of life that is extremely powerful due to various factors. That is, if you repeat something often and strong enough it becomes perception/truth for people. It does not matter if what is said is a lie, part lie, part truth or complete truth, it becomes people's reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 For Trips/Steph's promos calling Bryan a B Player to work with the story rather than against Bryan, they really needed to continually beat the audience over the head with the fact that Bryan beat Cena and Orton clean -- Orton on two occasions and on one occasion had him beat and Orton had to get himself DQed. They really haven't mentioned those facts nearly enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 It's more that people see the surface level stuff and think "This guy is a wrestler? He's short and kind of a geek", then HHH reinforces that thought by mentioning those things in a promo. Then the guy has a title match and loses. So I guess HHH was right all along. The bad guys won and were correct. Wrestling is depressing. I'm about to go do something else.But no one thought that. Not one human fucking being went "Well, HHH is right." Which is probably true, but means nothing until Bryan actually proves HHH wrong. I mean, I'm sure there were lots of WCW fans who didn't think the nWo was really "better", but when the nWo kept making the WCW guys look like chumps, eventually, regardless of what you really believe, you lose your will to invest yourself as a fan. More than the specifics of what he's said or the booking moves that have been made, that's why we're all so down in the mouth about this - Triple H has spent the last 15 years establishing himself as a one-man nWo. Why should we think WCW is going to win now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 That sums it up perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Are people really doubting Hunters track record to that degree? History shows that when the chips are down and him losing is a necessity, Hunter does the job (Cena, Rock, Batista etc). I'm guessing people are going to bring up Booker T, RVD and others, but I think it's crystal clear Bryan is above those guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 HHH did the promo right before HIAC comparing him to Jericho, Edge and RVD in a disparaging way. All three guys had various levels of success in WWE, but they were all second-tier main eventers even at their peaks. It's hard for people not to believe that point, and you can't tell me fans don't know the difference between those guys and Cena, Orton, Batista, HHH, Shawn and Undertaker. HHH basically told everyone that was all he could ever hope to be right before his big opportunity, which he lost in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Are people really doubting Hunters track record to that degree? History shows that when the chips are down and him losing is a necessity, Hunter does the job (Cena, Rock, Batista etc). I'm guessing people are going to bring up Booker T, RVD and others, but I think it's crystal clear Bryan is above those guys. Rock? 02/16/97 The Final Four: Rocky Maivia over Triple H 07/26/98 Fully Loaded: Rock draw Triple H (2/3 fall match) 08/30/98 SummerSlam: Triple H over Rock (Ladder Match) 05/23/99 Over The Edge: Rock over Triple H via DQ 07/25/99 Fully Loaded: Triple H pinned Rock (Strap Match) 09/26/99 Unforgiven: Triple H over Rock & Show & Kane & Mankind Smith to win title (Trip pinned Rock) 11/14/99 Survivor Series: Big Show over Triple H & Rock to win WWF Title (Show pinned Triple H) 04/02/00 Mania: Triple H over Rock, Foley & Show (first heel ever to win Mania main event - Trip pinned Foley & Rock to win) 04/30/00 Backlash: Rock pinned Triple H to win title 05/21/00 Judgment Day: Triple H beat Rock to win title (Iron Man Match) 06/25/00 King of the Ring: Rock & Kane & Undertaker beat Triple H & Vince & Shane (Rock pinned Vince to win title) 08/27/00 SummerSlam: Rock over Triple & Kurt Angle (Rock pinned Trip - Trip blows off Triangle Angle with Steph & Kurt) 12/10/00 Armageddon: Angle beat Rock, Austin, Rikishi, Triple H & Undertaker (HitC - Angle beat Rock) Trip had the amazing ability to avoid putting over Rock. Even in the blow off to their feud in 2000 (King of the Ring), Vince stepped in to put the belt back on Rock. Then at SummerSlam when the heat of the storyline was on Steph & Trip & Trip, with the notion that Steph might split with Trip to join Kurt, Trip couldn't allow himself to be the cuckold and killed the storyline. This isn't new. People talked about it at the time. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Yes, but the point is, why then would you draw attention to his shortcomings? Why point them out at all, even as a "lie"? Why not protect him and try to change the minds of those who aren't convinced by him, instead of proving them right?Because they were playing a script based on Internet memes. "Evil HHH and his old lady holding down a guy who's the best wrestler but doesn't have the look". Find me ONE fan who has ever said that HHH 's promos actually influenced how they think and I'll eat my hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Are people really doubting Hunters track record to that degree? History shows that when the chips are down and him losing is a necessity, Hunter does the job (Cena, Rock, Batista etc). I'm guessing people are going to bring up Booker T, RVD and others, but I think it's crystal clear Bryan is above those guys. I wouldn't put Daniel Bryan above Booker T or RVD in terms of star power at all, in all of their relative primes. At least not yet. We'll have to see how things pan out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Jiz Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Are people really doubting Hunters track record to that degree? History shows that when the chips are down and him losing is a necessity, Hunter does the job (Cena, Rock, Batista etc). I'm guessing people are going to bring up Booker T, RVD and others, but I think it's crystal clear Bryan is above those guys. I wouldn't put Daniel Bryan above Booker T or RVD in terms of star power at all, in all of their relative primes. At least not yet. We'll have to see how things pan out. I get that view to some degree, but I must admit that Daniel Bryan has a much bigger feel than either of those two as a top guy, except for RVD who might have been just as over but not necessarily on top like Bryan. I'd put Bryan slightly below Benoit's level at 2002-03, namely as a guy who is seen as a main event player and can beat top guys but who doesn't quite have promotional backing to be the top guy for whatever reason. The only difference is I think Benoit had a greater presence as a bad ass, whereas Bryan is a bit too goofy to convey that impression. Neither Booker T nor RVD were ever booked as guys who can beat top guys imo. Even in 2001, Booker T was booked as vastly inferior to other key players, who needed constant interference to win. RVD was booked a notch or two below Jericho as a top guy, and Jericho was always at least a tier below the top guys. Bryan beat Cena cleanly; people forget that never did Booker T or RVD beat a top guy cleanly. Only Benoit of those I've mentioned was booked on that level for a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Bryan beat Cena clean as a whistle in the main event of the second biggest show of year and has routinely been booked as > Orton (despite the constant dusty finishes). Neither Booker or RVD got that treatment. In fact, most guys don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Are people really doubting Hunters track record to that degree? History shows that when the chips are down and him losing is a necessity, Hunter does the job (Cena, Rock, Batista etc). I'm guessing people are going to bring up Booker T, RVD and others, but I think it's crystal clear Bryan is above those guys. Doing the job doesn't necessarily equal putting the wrestler over. The Cena feud was all about getting Triple H over as a hotter babyface for his DX reunion with Shawn Michaels. Even with Batista, he got drafted over to secondary brand Smackdown when Hunter had finished with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 People rightfully give credit to HHH for the Batista feud, but I remember after their HIAC match, the announcers said HHH suffered injuries in the match and it would be a while before we saw him again. In his first promo back, he made clear that he was just taking time off. Your milage may vary over whether that's just a plothole or something self-serving. It's a small detail, but I remember it standing out to me at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Yes, but the point is, why then would you draw attention to his shortcomings? Why point them out at all, even as a "lie"? Why not protect him and try to change the minds of those who aren't convinced by him, instead of proving them right?Because they were playing a script based on Internet memes. "Evil HHH and his old lady holding down a guy who's the best wrestler but doesn't have the look". Find me ONE fan who has ever said that HHH 's promos actually influenced how they think and I'll eat my hat. If it were just promos you'd have a point. But its promos combined with getting laid out every week, always coming up short when going for the title and not offering a glimmer of hope that anything approaching Summerslam was feasible since then. If HHH were spouting off left and right while Bryan got the upper hand in angles from time to time it'd be a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm fairly confident they've gotten the message and are going to give us the happy ending to the story now. But the idea that that has been the plan all along is something we pretty much all know not to be true. In the end, if they do the right thing, their motivations for doing so aren't really an issue for me. But I also don't believe HHH doing a parody of his mythological Internet persona is something deliberate. Why? Because the people who would get it aren't a large enough part of the fanbase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm fairly confident they've gotten the message and are going to give us the happy ending to the story now. But the idea that that has been the plan all along is something we pretty much all know not to be true. this is still crowing at me. But I guess if they do the right thing in the end the path is insignificant. But yes clearly the plan was never to give Bryan the fairty tale story ending. With all that said I bet you they still believed they elevated him to a certain status even without the happy ending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm fairly confident they've gotten the message and are going to give us the happy ending to the story now. But the idea that that has been the plan all along is something we pretty much all know not to be true. In the end, if they do the right thing, their motivations for doing so aren't really an issue for me. If that happens, it's gonna be hilarious hearing them talk about this when they make a Bryan DVD. Fans were eager to see him with the belt, but the more we made them wait, the more they loved him - Triple H It was all part of Vince's/Hunter's plan, he's a genius. That night in Seattle was perfect - Michael Hayes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm fairly confident they've gotten the message and are going to give us the happy ending to the story now. But the idea that that has been the plan all along is something we pretty much all know not to be true. this is still crowing at me. But I guess if they do the right thing in the end the path is insignificant. But yes clearly the plan was never to give Bryan the fairty tale story ending. With all that said I bet you they still believed they elevated him to a certain status even without the happy ending Well they have elevated him to a certain status. It may not be equivalent to how over he is (and certainly not as important as fans want it to be), but since last May, they have given him a way bigger role in the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellmania Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 regarding HHH, he has shown a willingness to job to guys like Cena, but it seems like he always gets his win back later. (Same goes for HBK) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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