2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame thread

[funkdoc]

yeah i figured as much re: JYD, thanks for the replies everyone! =) was just one of those weird little things bugging me for a while...

 

also thanks for the article dylan, surprised you mentioned han & hamada after making some posts suggesting you weren't thrilled with them as candidates!

[shakla]

I already emailed Dave on this issue:

 

 

 

Hi Dave,

Regarding the new 15-year rule, is it meant to apply to wrestlers who dropped off the ballot and were placed back on at a later date, or just to wrestlers who have been on the ballot for 15 straight years? I think Caras, Morales and The Andersons all had a few years when they weren't on the ballot.

Best wishes,

Keith.

 

Dave's answer was "15 years from first appearing" because it shouldn't be beneficial to drop off the ballot.

 

I think Dave must have just looked at who was on the 2000 ballot, as Akira Taue, Curt Hennig, Mark Lewin, Blue Panther, Ken Patera and Sting all dropped off in 1998 and Sgt Slaughter did in 1999 according to that WrestlingClassics thread, so their time should be up too. However, I'm not going to point out the inconsistency to him given that the ballot will be purged more than enough already without any extra help.

 

Was Atlantis on the first ballot in 1998? If so, he had 16 years on the ballot. :-/

 

He wrote me back, pretty much said the same thing. I replied, mostly about Pedro Morales moving from the modern to historical category and still having to clear 50% in the first year. Since he is modeling this after the Baseball HoF, I told him that Pedro is in a way, moving from the regular ballot to the Veteran's committee.

[shakla]

Thought of something re:15-year rule for those who dropped off. What if the number of years on the ballot were combined, then add 2/two (the minimum sit-out period before coming back on) to the total until they reach 15? That way, you don't "reward" falling off the ballot but don't overly punish the candidate b/c say, a voter/group didn't make a case for him/her or such until later. If that makes sense. For example, Cien Caras was off the ballot for at least 8 years (from 2002 to at least 2009), why should that span count against him as if he was on the ballot the way things are now?

[elliott]

I don't mean to derail this by bringing up someone not on the ballot, but was Sputnik Monroe ever on the ballot? It seems like there would be a good argument for him based on the "historical significance in a positive manner" metric. His role in desegregation in Memphis seems like a really strong building block and I know he worked on top in Texas and Florida in addition to Memphis. Are Memphis results/attendance from the 60s out there? I kind of want to do a ton of research on Sputnik over the next year and send it to Dave because based on the little bit I know he seems like he would be a good candidate. I feel like he wouldn't be if he was just a random southern sometimes headliner from that era but if positive historical influence is taken into consideration, he would have to be considered a strong candidate for the ballot if not the Hall. Do we know what the perception of him as a worker was? I know he was a brawler but was he considered good or great? Not asking if he was Stan Hansen or Ric Flair as a worker. But if he was seen as a very good worker in addition to being a headliner and the desegregation argument, it would just further strengthen and round out his candidacy for WON voters.

[FedEx227]

My study on CM Punk as a Hall of Famer: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/11/is-cm-punk-a-hall-of-famer/

[evilclown]

In your chart comparing Punk's performance on top with the average WWE buy rates from the era, it seems to me the difference isn't really worth much. A few thousand buys here or there?

[kjh]

It should be noted that Money In The Bank 2011 was available for free in the UK, WWE's second biggest pay-per-view market.

[FedEx227]

In your chart comparing Punk's performance on top with the average WWE buy rates from the era, it seems to me the difference isn't really worth much. A few thousand buys here or there?

 

Basically. I concluded as a PPV draw he was above average but not significant.

[evilclown]

 

In your chart comparing Punk's performance on top with the average WWE buy rates from the era, it seems to me the difference isn't really worth much. A few thousand buys here or there?

 

Basically. I concluded as a PPV draw he was above average but not significant.

 

Above average compared to what? Other WWE headliners in that same tiny window?

[Loss]

Hard to use merch sales as an argument for someone when we don't have numbers, only anecdotes.

[JerryvonKramer]

What were Koko B. Ware's merch figures like?

[claw64]

My ballot would look different if Dave didn't institute the 15 years now or almost never rule.

 

"Dave,

I'm only voting in three categories. I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES, I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES and Non Wrestlers. Don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to vote on Japan, Mexico, Europe or the rest of the world category.

So here you go. The new 15 year rule, 50% or be dropped next year definitely influenced my voting.

1 Ivan Koloff
2 Enrique Torres
3 Wilbur Snyder
4 Gene Anderson & Ole Anderson
5 Dick Murdoch
6 Jimmy Snuka
7 Pepper Gomez
8 Assassins Joe Hamilton & Tom Renesto
9 Kinji Shibuya
10 Rock & Roll Express Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson

Non Wrestlers
Bill Apter
Howard Finkel
Don Owen
George Scott
Jesse Ventura"

[claw64]

Snuka definitely influenced Foley. Then I saw two top of the cage dives on Monday night. So I voted for Snuka. Snuka also got some territories to either get rid of or modify the jumping off the top rope dq.

[claw64]

I originally was going to vote for Edge but changed it to Ricky & Robert. Also considered Lesnar. I'll be able to vote for Edge in the coming years provided he doesn't fall below 10 percent. I want to wait and see how the rest of Lesnar's pro wrestling career pans out.

[Grimmas]

I originally was going to vote for Edge but changed it to Ricky & Robert. Also considered Lesnar. I'll be able to vote for Edge in the coming years provided he doesn't fall below 10 percent. I want to wait and see how the rest of Lesnar's pro wrestling career pans out.

Not to be rude, but what is the argument to vote for Edge?

[soup23]

I was delighted to take a look at Akira Taue's credentials over at Voices of Wrestling.

 

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2014/09/15/akira-taues-hall-of-fame-case/

[Timbo Slice]

Nice work, Chad. Really good stuff.

[Loss]

Yes, I really enjoyed that too! Great stuff. I would vote for Taue if I had a ballot.

[W2BTD]

Word for word what I posted on the Observer board RE: Chad's work here:

 

This contains a tremendous amount of great research.

After reading that, I really really hate to boil down Taue to the same tired argument, but his candidacy really does boil down to what you think his contributions were to all of those tag matches, both from a match quality and drawing perspective. He has a few strong singles matches on that Budokan resume from a drawing perspective, but are they enough on their own? It really does come down to the tags and how much of a supplement you believe them to be.

And there really is no way around it, Taue was involved in a lot of filler at various points. To be fair, both AJPW & NOAH were never afraid to go back to him on top, and he usually delivered (although there are a few cases where his stuff on top dropped off some from the previous show).

Yes, he was very clearly the fourth guy. You could argue he was riding a wave. I think the wave happens without him. I don't know if it happens without any of the other three. I don't think it happens with just Taue.

I liken him to Tony Perez. He wasn't Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, or Pete Rose. Playing with those guys probably got Perez into the HOF. Maybe playing in AJPW (& NOAH) gets Taue in. And maybe there is nothing wrong with that.

Does that make Akiyama Dave Concepcion?

[Matt D]

There's a ton I haven't seen, but from a lot of the really classic tags I saw, I think Taue brought as much to the table as the other three, without a doubt. What he brought was a sort of personality and flair and color and verve. It's not the sort of stuff that people would have gone nuts over in the 90s because it's not super workratey (though he held his own really). It felt like he brought a little bit of Memphis to the matches, if that's not going too crazy, the sort of emotiveness and dickishness that plays all the way to the back row, and that's something that's appreciated a lot more now. What he added were things that the other three just weren't doing.

 

Am I way off on that?

[Loss]

He did, but I think Kawada and Kobashi did too. Kawada was often a grumpy jerk and Kobashi was a classic babyface.

[Dylan Waco]

I have made this point before, but it does interest me that several people I know who came to AJPW after it was the hot thing, rate Taue above at least one of the three guys that he supposedly lags behind.

[El Boricua]

I liken him to Tony Perez. He wasn't Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, or Pete Rose. Playing with those guys probably got Perez into the HOF. Maybe playing in AJPW (& NOAH) gets Taue in. And maybe there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Does that make Akiyama Dave Concepcion?

 

Or it could be case of Mays, Mantle, Snider and Ashburn. It may depend on how much one views them in relative terms to each other or in relative terms to everyone else.

[WingedEagle]

I'd probably put Taue at number four as well, but wouldn't tune out an argument to plcae him higher. But what are 1990s AJPW without him? I don't see Fuchi or someone else stepping up and filling even 50% of that role for purposes of the tag feud, and you're also wiping out the Kawada matches before they paired off and in the Carnival afterwards, the Misawa classics in '95 and the Kobashi title win in '96, and that's just scratching the surface. Akiyama certainly wasn't ready for that role yet; so I just don't see how removing Taue out doesn't markedly impact the others, as you can't stretch out and build all the TC matches without those tags providing layers along the way.

 

For HOF purposes if people want to argue against his record as a draw and weight that significantly over his work you can certainly make that case, but you can't do that without poking a few large holes in a number of previous inductees.

[Matt D]

He did, but I think Kawada and Kobashi did too. Kawada was often a grumpy jerk and Kobashi was a classic babyface.

Kawada's emotion was much more subdued. It was there, of course, and tangible, but it was behind a scowl. It was in what he didn't do as much as in what he did (and there's a talent to that, absolutely). Kobashi had flourishes, no doubt, but Taue just sort of oozed this larger than life (in part due to his size which I think is key in a lot of ways, but in part due to just how he moved and the disdain he manhandled his opponents with) personality. I'm not saying he necessarily brought more to the table, just that he brought as much and I could only imagine a conversation otherwise in the strictest terms of workrate. Now, I think a lot of the conversations in years past were very much on those terms.