Bob Backlund

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[JerryvonKramer]

I won't be voting for Backlund for three interlinked key reasons:

 

1. Limited

2. Lacking in imagination

3. Poor at generating sympathy during heat segments

 

Backlund was on top for 6 years and during that time got to face a very wide variety of different opponents. Yet, it didn't matter if he was facing Stan Hansen, Harley Race, Sgt. Slaughter, or a guy who was smaller than him, he'd work the same way. Namely, he'd work on top, dominating the heel for the majority of the match through drawn out and repetitive mat-based control segments.

 

If you've seen one Backlund match, you've seen em all. Armwork to start, maybe the "row row row" spot. Heel struggles and tries to fight back. Bob gives them nothing, beats them back down. Heel almost gets a hope spot and maybe gets a few moves in on offense. Bob barely sells them before KILLing the heel with a massive piledriver and maybe a suplex variation. If it's match one, he'll get thrown from the ring for a countout, or cut his head for blood stoppage. If it's match two, it'll be a draw of some kind. If it's match three he goes over. Doesn't really matter, cos whatever the match and whatever the opponent, the basic structure is the same. Only the finish changes. To me, this suggests that ultimately he's a limited worker.

 

Kayfabe Bob is one of the most single-track minded guys ever to step in the ring. He'll get one idea in his head (e.g. "grind headlock" or "wrench arm") and proceed to do that and only that for the next 20 minutes. You might say it's good psychology, which I guess it is, but the problem is that he'll pursue his basic gameplan by going back to the same move again and again and again. It could be a headlock, it could be an armwrench. Bob's plan is not so much to work a bodypart, it's TO USE ONE MOVE over and over again. This belies his lack of imagination.

 

Finally -- and this is the biggest problem for me, because he does have some good matches in his locker, maybe even a few great ones -- he can't sell for shit, and doesn't seem to sell for anyone. Bob seems completely unable to show any sort of vulnerability at all. He's like Superman without the kryptonite Achilles heel. Not only is Kayfabe Bob the most single-track minded wrestler of all time, he's also the most indestructible. He has basically no weaknesses. He isn't just the champ, he's a fucking juggernaut who eats heel challengers for breakfast. He sells for no man. Because dammit, Bob Backlund is the strongest, the fastest, the smartest, the most technically proficient and the toughest! On his worst days, he makes Road Warrior Hawk look generous. And all of this means that he's poor at generating sympathy during heat segments. This is a major knock on him for me. We've seen Bruno generate sympathy much more effectively, and we've seen Hogan do it. That's wrestling ABCs, and I very much doubt we'll be seeing Hogan or Bruno get into the Top 100.

 

So for all of these reasons, I won't be voting for Backlund. He does have great matches to his name, but his general deficiencies are such that he doesn't belong in a Greatest 100 Wrestlers of All-time List. Maybe a greatest 200, but not 100.

[Loss]

One thing I will say in Backlund's favor is that the guy aged exceptionally well. You like his style or you don't, but there's not a significant difference in how he worked in the late 70s versus the early 90s.

 

I want to go back and watch the stuff jdw has talked up from the late 70s/early 80s before casting a vote. I also think I should check out his 1988 match with Takada.

 

This is a slept on match that is probably his peak performance of the 90s. As Mid South as a WWF match was going to get in 1995.

 

Bret Hart & Davey Boy Smith vs Owen Hart & Bob Backlund (WWF Action Zone 02/26/95)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1tbg5y_bret-hart-davey-boy-smith-vs-owen-hart-bob-backlund-wwf-action-zone-02-26-1995_sport

[bradhindsight]

I'll also nominate the Bret/Backlund match from 7/30/94 when Backlund started his heel run. There's an excellent match discussion thread on it already for reference.

[goodhelmet]

Matches from Bob nominated for the WWF Redux Project...

 

Bob vs. Killer Khan (Date disappeared with the old board)

- Both guys were laying in the shots with Khan's chops setting up a nerve hold that was actually worked instead of two guys taking a 5 minute break. Backlund sold the power of Khan's head by shaking his fist each time he threw a punch. Some sick spots including the Khan top tope knee,Backlund standing on Khan's head and a sweet german to end the match. Both guys busted their ass in this match and this will be a Killer Khan match that will not finish last. EASY NOMINATION

 

 

Ken Patera vs. Bob Backlund (5/19/80) - These dudes come out fighting and nail each other with some stiff shots. Bob’s elbow to the head looks nasty. Great spot where Ken hooks in the Full Nelson early and Bob breaks it while ramming Ken’s head in the turnbuckle piggyback style. Ken gets the back work in motion and this is the part where Phil makes fun of Bob’s facial expressions… goofy as fuck. I love seeing Bob cheat, using the rope, eye rakes, punch to the throat. This sets up the atomic drop but Ken gets outside the apron then KILLS Patera with a SICK SICK SICK piledriver. Bob has one of the best piledrivers. Patera gets the advantage and starts working on Bob’s throat… tree of woe choking, clothesline, throat drop across the rope and tries to pin him while choking. At this point, Ken escapes a n ab stretch by tossing Bob over the top and beating the shit out of him on the outside, busint him open and attacking the cut. I LOVE THAT SHIT. Bob makes his comeback and beats the shit out of Patera on the outside. Now Patera is busted open and Bob beats the shit out of the cut. The end had Bob ram Ken into a chair only for Ken to pick it up and nail Bob with ot as he gets in the ring. Ken looks to put it away with the chair but Bob nails Ken with it a couple of times and wins with a flying body press. This has to be the best match either guy has ever been in and probably a lock for my Top 5. EASY NOMINATION.

 

 

Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine (11/23/81) Holy shit, Backlund attacks Valentine before the match and hits him with the belt. No holds barred! Bob is fucking Greg up. Smart work early when Greg misses a knee charge to the corner, Bob works the legs. Nothing wrong with that. Greg tries to fight back but Bob just kicks his leg and he drops. Bob even goes for a figure-4 but Greg pulls him down and turns the tide. Even after turning the tide, Greg still selling the leg. As of this moment, not really a No Holds Barred match even though it was teased as such early on. Really smart match but not extremely violent. Just as I say that, Greg gets to wrap Bob’s leg around the ringpost several times. Bob escapes the figure-4 a couple of times but Greg finally gets it on and I am liking the leg work in the match. Eventually, Bob catches Greg with his deadlift German for the pin. Not a great No Holds Barred match but a great wrestling match. I have to check Cawthon’s site and see if this was a regular match or No DQ. If it was no holds barred, merely solid. If it was just a match, this was really an easy nomination.

 

 

Bob Backlund vs. Buddy Rose (8/30/82) - Holy shit, Sheri Martel was one of Buddy’s ring girls! Early on, the match starts out similar to the Orton match with Buddy getting outsmarted early on in the mat, locking up and even on a roll up attempt that results in Buddy getting dropkicked out of the ring. Buddy grounds Bob with a headlock and keeps control even when Bob temporarily escapes. Man, Buddy taking it to Bob even giving Bob a taste of his own medicine with a nasty boot scrape. Really, I am not seeing Bob getting owned like this. It’s a nice change of pace although I wish they would work this headlock more. Bob changes direction and he gets control with his own headlock. Bob does his goofy arm cranks that people hate but his running headlock takeover off the turnbuckle was cool. Buddy is trying to desperately escape but Bob keeps blocking him. Bob even keeps it on after a nice belly to back suplex. Buddy breaks it with a nice crotch on the top rope leading to a tree of woe knee that looked sick. Buddy is kicking Bob square in the head and knocks him off the apron. After some back and forth, eventually, Bob locks on the chicken wing and Buddy goes to sleep. I enjoyed this match but I am a mark for both guys and good headlock worked matches. SOLID NOMINATION that should be on the set with the caveat that the other matches are different enough to also be included as separate entities. If all of their matches follow the same formula, we can just pick the best one including the one that made the Top Ten first time around.

[Childs]

There are some great Backlund matches, but he's not going to make my list because I flat don't like him. I don't like the way he moved around the ring, don't like his mannerisms, don't like the way he worked long control sections. I remember reading jdw's Backlund thread and becoming convinced, in the abstract, that I'd misjudged him. But then I watched a bunch of his stuff again and no, still didn't like him.

[shoe]

He has loads of great matches. I liked he could work the mat, and mix it up with brawling. I thought he was awesome working holds. He has his flaws like taking too much of his matches.One of the best Piledrivers I've seen. He's a guy who needed a good dance partner to have that great match.

[Phil Schneider]

I am with Childs, he had so many long matches with great opponents that he was going to have some good stuff by default, but I also don't like watching him. He either would no sell or do this almost three stooges comedy selling, he seems to have least one awkaward botchish thing a match, and I really don't like the way his matches are structured. No way he makes my 100

[Tim Cooke]

I remember reading jdw's Backlund thread and becoming convinced, in the abstract, that I'd misjudged him. But then I watched a bunch of his stuff again and no, still didn't like him.

 

Same thing with me. I don't dislike him but after re-reading that thread, I thought I was missing out on something in my initial viewing. Definitely agreed with some points as his actual match layout structure for longer matches could be very strong, but the execution wasn't always there.

 

Kind of like reading Dean's Matsunaga review from the mid 2000's. Awesome review, so awesome that the review blows away the actual matches.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I pretty much agree with the consensus on Backlund, as seen in this thread. I think he had it in his locker to be a compelling mat worker and a compelling brawler, but he just took too much of his matches, and steamrollered too many guys. That coupled with the goofy mannerisms makes him a real long-shot to make my list. I think his best match (that I've seen) is against Killer Kahn, for the record. He worked more of an underdog style, which really helped the match.

[Hollinger.]

He has basically no weaknesses. He isn't just the champ, he's a fucking juggernaut who eats heel challengers for breakfast. He sells for no man. Because dammit, Bob Backlund is the strongest, the fastest, the smartest, the most technically proficient and the toughest!

 

But this is all true. Why should he pretend it's not?

[Grimmas]

 

He has basically no weaknesses. He isn't just the champ, he's a fucking juggernaut who eats heel challengers for breakfast. He sells for no man. Because dammit, Bob Backlund is the strongest, the fastest, the smartest, the most technically proficient and the toughest!

 

But this is all true. Why should he pretend it's not?

 

Backlund was a late 70's Goldberg. What is wrong with that?

[JerryvonKramer]

It makes the narrative of a lot of the matches the same and his work quite one-dimensional, that's what is wrong with it.

 

It also robs matches of the natural drama arch of "the comeback", which guys like Lawler, Hogan, Pedro and Bruno made their babyface careers on because Backlund can't come back from being on top for the whole match. Backlund matches have a habit of ending with a wimper. Flash roll-up pin, him just walking out of the door of a cage match, him cutting off the heel's first attempt at offense for literally the 7th time and hitting the atomic drop for 1,2,3, etc. It's difficult to create drama if you never feel the hero is in real danger. It's Superman minus the threat of kryptonite.

 

I know people criticise me for thinking that there's only one way to do psychology, but the idea of a babyface champ dominating all comers is about the least compelling narrative I can think of for all those reasons. Especially when he's not really a "monster" babyface, but a guy who works headlocks and arm wrenches.

 

Goldberg's streak was a completely different ball game and confuses the issue a lot, so let's leave that to one side.

 

Backlund gets a big rub within the community because a lot of the criticisms levelled at him over the years by guys like Larry Matysik and Meltzer over the years simply aren't true: he was over, he did have a certain charisma, he did draw, he wasn't "boring" (in the sense that he did work quite an action-orientated style). And so there is a will there, especially among more revisionist minded members of the community, to try to "rescue" Backlund from the bad old received opinions. Similar to how the idea that Michael Hayes or Ron Garvin or Lex Luger were bad workers have been overturned. And I get that and in some respects support that. He's also helped by the fact that Vince more or less erased him from history and there's a sense of uncovering and rediscovering pre-Hogan history. I get that too, I started Titans of Wrestling.

 

But the will to rescue Backlund goes too far and is blind to his shortcomings as a performer -- just in my opinion. But, hell, what do I know, I'm that chump who still thinks Ted DiBiase's a great worker. I also think that some people just like to wind me up and can see the problems I point to in Backlund's work, but won't admit it because they enjoy it when I get riled up.

[Grimmas]

I'm actually on the fence about Backlund, since I really haven't watched much of him in probably a decade.

 

If the matches aren't compelling, then I agree with Parv. If it is just a match structure thing that Parv hates, that is a different story.

[Hollinger.]

I'm half fucking with you, Parv. I enjoy the Backlund as Terminator stuff, and think most of the freakishly strong bumpkin that will grind you to death stuff works. But I do agree with you about a lot of the structure issues with his default template matches. Going back to the same hold over and over, the one move comebacks, it's all there. I just haven't spent as much time watching the week to week stuff from the company during that period as you have, so it's never been something that irritated me more than just being forgettable.

 

And I know that goes against part of the argument that I made in the Flair thread about the average matches mattering as much as the great matches, but I'm not arguing Backlund as a top 10 guy. He'll probably fall around the top of the back half of my list, without having made an actual preliminary list yet.

[funkdoc]

see, i think the comeback is about the most overdone corny shit in wrestling. knowing how much rarer they are in real sports makes it real hard for me to get into a form of entertainment where they're part of the standard formula. you know how people say that sometimes it feels like memphis heels cheat just because they're memphis heels and they have to? that's how i feel about most wrestling comebacks.

 

i loved watching the seattle seahawks steamroll last year's super bowl, and i can appreciate backlund. i'm an anti-formula guy, which probably explains why i'm not as into actually watching wrestling as yall are...

[Dylan Waco]

This is probably best served in another thread but not entirely sure I believe it is possible to be "anti-formula" In wrestling

[JerryvonKramer]

Backlund had a formula though, it just wasn't the standard one.

 

Seahawks vs. Broncos wouldn't have been so remarkable as a narrative if the Seahawks steamrollered every team they faced, which I know they didn't that year or any year.

 

Also, I did say that Backlund has a shot at being 90-100 in my list. I still have to see how it all shakes out -- certain performances and matches are hard to overlook (vs. Patera, Texas Death Match, for example) -- but the trajectory has been that the more I see of him the less I think of him. And he's partly responsible for the current Titans detour into Mid-Atlantic.

[Steenalized]

Undefeated teams that steamroll everyone are major stories that draw tons of attention. College football and basketball are the best (most frequent and likely) examples, like Florida State football two seasons ago and Kentucky basketball this year. The problem is, as JvK is getting at, is that I can't think of any undefeated sports team who are "faces". At best, a team like UK this year is split - huge fanbase, sure, but people don't like to root for old powers and dominant teams. Ratings suggest they sure do like to watch them though, even over plucky, once-in-a-lifetime underdogs.

[funkdoc]

maybe not completely undefeated teams, but i'd throw arguably the greatest football team of all time into the "babyface" category. the fridge & the super bowl shuffle & da coach, anyone? that was a team that came close to "steamrolling every team they faced" and people ate them up.

 

i think it depends on how likeable said team's most prominent media personalities area. the seahawks weren't exactly "heels" (thanks to russell wilson) or "faces" (thanks to richard sherman).

 

basically if i were a longtime fan during backlund's reign, i would view him as a welcome subversion of the standard babyface tropes.

[JerryvonKramer]

basically if i were a longtime fan during backlund's reign, i would view him as a welcome subversion of the standard babyface tropes.

That somewhat oversells what Backlund did though because in actuality what he was doing was a version of how Dory Funk Jr. worked as NWA champ. Dory had much better psychology than Backlund, was better on the mat, better at working counters, and a lot of the time had better opponents, but if you read my reviews of his NWA title defenses that we have on tape (or in fact of later Dory), you'll see many of the same criticisms that I make of Backlund apply. Dory also worked pretty strong and didn't show much vulnerability. From what I've seen, this was not how Thesz worked. Jack Brisco worked from underneath, as did subsequent NWA champs. But Dory worked from on top.

 

Apparently Vince Sr. wanted a version of Brisco when he brought in Backlund, but what he ended up getting was a version of Dory.

 

The key differences, aside from the psychology, is context. Dory was put in positions to work mat classics, Backlund was often put against big men. And when Backlund does work longer mat-based matches he doesn't have a lot of ideas (see vs Valenteine, which is a match I don't enjoy but which some people inexplicably love despite a legit 30-minute headlock spot which we know was worked because Greg got blown up inside the first five minutes). Backlund lacks Dory's smoothness in transitions and counters, "lacks imagination" as I've said.

 

But my point is that the narrative was not new.

[funkdoc]

alright, those are fair points. i'm obviously nowhere near as well-versed on that era, so thanks for the post! backlund as Fake Brisco and/or Fake Dory is an interesting thought...that's exactly the sort of perception i could see meltzer types subscribing to back in the day.

 

i just don't mind champions working on top even if they're babyfaces. i've been a fan of sports and involved with competitive games for most of my life, and typically when the champion loses it's in a game where they had the advantage most of the way and "slipped on a banana peel" (as we would put it here) or the opponent just made a huge gamble that paid off. the amount of time spent in control can actually be a more reliable indicator of skill than who wins, so i like to see champions who reflect that.

 

as an aside, this is also why i don't mind "my turn-your turn" layouts as much as most people here do. that's a common game flow when the players/teams are at the same level, and many of the consensus all-time greatest games fit that mold.

 

very much appreciate all of the discussion here, this is giving me some other thread ideas...

[Ricky Jackson]

We have gone round and round on Bob on Titans for months and months now. His style is definitely not for everyone, especially if you compare him to Brisco, Flair, Steamboat, etc. His worst matches, against Swede Hanson, Sika, Mosca, are truly dreadful. His best matches, against Patera, Hogan, Patterson, are amazing. He was booked very, very strong. From a business standpoint, that was the right move, because it got him over on a main event level in NYC, and he was a strong draw at his peak despite opinions to the contrary. From a match quality perspective, this strong booking can be a turn off to some, like Parv. I love Bob, but I understand the criticisms. On Titans, we are approaching a time when Bob has arguably his best matches, against Valentine, Adonis, Rose, etc., so I am interested to see if Parv will enjoy those bouts.

[Timbo Slice]

Backlund's a guy I won't go back and rewatch that much because I don't think he had enough to have me coming back for more. I actually think of him in a similar vein as Dory, where he worked a deliberate pace mainly because that's what he was best at, but it wasn't something that worked well against a wide variety of opponents. But then at the same time, when he did have to change things up because of his opponents almost by necessity, there was some really interesting stuff that happened because of it. Call it a product of the MSG environment, but he's really tough for me to pinpoint on a list where I think the more I look over it, the more slam dunks I realize I'm going to have. Backlund not being one is going to hurt him on my list. Don't see him on it right now.

[Ricky Jackson]

Backlund has great matches against Patterson, Koloff, Rhodes, Hogan, Khan, Patera, Rose, Hansen, Larry Z, Arab (Iron Sheik), Valentine, Muraco, Adonis (haven't seen, but that's the consensus), some would say Inoki, not to mention later vs Bret Hart...I would say that's a wide variety.