Grimmas Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 If this keeps up Daniel Bryan should win most underrated in the WON Awards for 2015. How crazy is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 If Bryan's buyrates are lower (which I see they are)...why is getting such HUGE pops everywhere he goes? Is it just becoming a "thing to do" and people are jumping on the band wagon or are most Bryan fans not getting the PPV's?? If so, why? Anyone with stats or an idea here as I am very interested... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 If Bryan's buyrates are lower (which I see they are)...why is getting such HUGE pops everywhere he goes? Is it just becoming a "thing to do" and people are jumping on the band wagon or are most Bryan fans not getting the PPV's?? If so, why? Anyone with stats or an idea here as I am very interested... What Bryan buyrates are lower? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 I keep reading and seeing that his numbers are lower than others when put on top (Fall of 2013...) on lots of articles... If his buyrates are good AND the fans love him, what the hell is WWE doing? No business could be that dumb to have a guy get good buyrates AND have crowds loving him and NOT do anything about it. I thought the main reason they dont go back is not drawing as good as others... For instance, for the Fall 2013 title chase with Orton: Night of Champions 2013 - 196,000 Battleground 2013 - 114,000 I am not an authority on how buyrates work or what they mean, just looking at numbers here... IF he does draw $$ on PPV and crowds love him, then WWE is just stupid. If he doesnt draw $$ on PPV BUT crowds adore him, what is going on? Back to my original question...is it just "Cool" to love him like it became "cool" to boo Cena and just something people are doing now? All this love everywhere he goes should translate to bigger PPV's / Network buys going forward...or am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 I keep reading and seeing that his numbers are lower than others when put on top (Fall of 2013...) on lots of articles... If his buyrates are good AND the fans love him, what the hell is WWE doing? No business could be that dumb to have a guy get good buyrates AND have crowds loving him and NOT do anything about it. I thought the main reason they dont go back is not drawing as good as others... For instance, for the Fall 2013 title chase with Orton: Night of Champions 2013 - 196,000 Battleground 2013 - 114,000 I am not an authority on how buyrates work or what they mean, just looking at numbers here... IF he does draw $$ on PPV and crowds love him, then WWE is just stupid. If he doesnt draw $$ on PPV BUT crowds adore him, what is going on? Back to my original question...is it just "Cool" to love him like it became "cool" to boo Cena and just something people are doing now? All this love everywhere he goes should translate to bigger PPV's / Network buys going forward...or am I missing something? In contrast Survivor Series 2013, when Bryan was pushed out of the main event. The pay-per-view was the worst-selling edition of Survivor Series since the event's inception in 1987; this has been attributed to a weak buildup.[4][5] It received 179,000 buys, down from 208,000 for the previous year's event; and attracted more than 100,000 fewer orders than the 2011 event, which generated 281,000 buys.[6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 The fact that Bryan was consistently booked weak and portrayed as not being on the level of other main eventers even when asked to main event may have something to do with it. It also may not. The correlation or lack thereof between crowd reactions and drawing power has always been a funny thing and in modern WWE seems harder to understand than ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 This really is CM Punk all over again with Daniel Bryan having a strong cult following that WWE fails to fully capitalise on because he doesn't fit their mould of what a top star should be. Similar to Bryan's Yes chants, Punk's pipe bomb promo didn't translate into super-duper business either (Money In The Bank drew well for a B-show, but not as well as the online attention it grabbed suggested). The advantage Punk had is that the fans would still accept him as a heel, so he could switch roles and get a lengthy main event run that way instead. The problem today is that with the switch in business model to the WWE Network, it's become harder than ever to determine who draws and who doesn't. Pay-per-view wasn't without its problems, as initial estimates were sometimes out significantly, but at least buys varied on the strength of each card and you can look back and see what did and didn't work. Now if you put on a weak show, then that doesn't hurt you as much, as the majority of people are going to keep paying for the service no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiva Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 The common denominator in those bad, late-13 buyrates is Randy Orton. Has he ever drew on top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 How bad was Bryan's buyrate performance REALLY? Not good, but he in a long program with a totally proven non-draw like Orton. Summerslam wasn't a bad buyrate. It was close to the Summerslam headlined by Brock and Triple H. Battleground is a D-level PPV, it wasn't going to draw. Night of Champions drew better than the show with Triple H vs. CM Punk on top. HIAC did a good buyrate, and yes it was Cena's return match, but it was also probably the only Bryan/Orton match where it wasn't transparently obvious that Bryan wasn't going to get a real win. Then Bryan's out of the main event and Survivor Series is a disaster, with Cena still on the card and Orton still in the main event. TLC with Cena/Orton in a unification match did a poor buyrate too. Less than the Bryan-headlined HIAC buyrate. If Cena's return was enough of a novelty that it was totally responsible for that buyrate why couldn't the novelty of Cena in a match to unify the titles be able to match it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 the notion that Bryan is not automatically the number one contender is infuriating anyway. he never lost the title. In kayfabe terms he probably should have been part of the Royal Rumble title match. It's kind of silly that he had to even be in the Rumble if you think about it. Why should the uncrowned champion be subject to the same process to earn a title shot as Titus O'Neill? WWE Champs that vacated due to injury HBK, 1997: returned 4 months later, won the title in a non-descript PPV match Batista, 2006: returned 6 months later, worked with Booker T for a bit before winning the belt in November. Edge, 2007: returned at Survivor Series and won the belt in December. Cena, 2007: returned and won the 2008 Rumble. Batista, 2009: returned, defeated Orton, left Raw, competed in 2010 Rumble Edge, 2011: retired. HBK is probably the only guy in history who forfeited Championships more often than anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 If Bryan's buyrates are lower (which I see they are)...why is getting such HUGE pops everywhere he goes? Is it just becoming a "thing to do" and people are jumping on the band wagon or are most Bryan fans not getting the PPV's?? If so, why? Anyone with stats or an idea here as I am very interested... I'd argue that they don't have the eyes on them yet. Wrestling in the states has been so far off the radar for most people. The people giving the pops need to be behind the product, and telling folks to come back or check it out. That takes time. When business goes low, it takes time to heat up again. In my mind, they have not shown the patience to get there. I always think it takes at least a year to warm up before you get really hot. Maybe even a year and a half. Considering the state of mass media, and the size of their current fan base, there's no quick way around that. The numbers we know don't make a good case for DB, or CM Punk. But those two have generated incredible amounts of interest, relative to where wrestling has been the last ten years. The failure to turn that into $$$ has been puzzling, but I think there's a lot of groundwork that comes before they'd see the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 It's hard to see the company heating up ever again. Yes, the launch of the Network has been a bumpy road but they're on track to once again being comfortably profitable under a model that should theoretically demonstrate even less variance with booking than the PPV model. There's no motivation to take the kind of risks necessary to get things hot. As long as there are wrestling fans and no competition WWE will continue to make money with a mediocre product. I think if the quality of the product increases, it will be because whoever's calling the shots at the time is personally driven to create a quality product, not because of any economic motivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Ok, here's what to do. I got this idea from reading Gary Hart's book and his explanation for why he created the TV title and had it defended in 2/3 matches. He needed to cut two matches out of the TV taping since he was giving too much away that night. WWE Can't fill their 3 hours easily. They need to make the freaking Americas title for Bryan and have him defend it every week over 2-3 segments on Raw. He'll basically be the Million Dollar Champ or the TV champ or whatever and he can hold that belt forever against different guys and they can blow segments off, make him come off as dominant, appease the fan base on some level, and keep him out of the main event. And if his matches tank in the ratings, then that's all the ammo they need to depush him anyway. If they do well, then they have every reason to keep doing what they're doing. That's even better than giving him a year long tag title reign with Dolph. It's no lose for what Vince wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 This may be more concise and constructive: DB is getting most of their established base, but he loses an edge against big names. His true $$$ potential is likely beyond that base. WWE is unsure if that's true or worth the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 That's part of it, but the other part of it is that the people who are cheering him the most are the wrestling diehards. As a corporate entity, as Jerome said earlier, WWE is looking for a face for their brand. They don't care that Bryan gets over like he does with live crowds because he's always going to do that. They care about everything else that goes with it and frankly believe he can't do it. You know, except for the tons of interviews he's done since becoming a top guy and him obviously being able to a good company representative. Or having the "Yes" chant get over in other sports. But hey, what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporadic Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Ok, here's what to do. I got this idea from reading Gary Hart's book and his explanation for why he created the TV title and had it defended in 2/3 matches. He needed to cut two matches out of the TV taping since he was giving too much away that night. WWE Can't fill their 3 hours easily. They need to make the freaking Americas title for Bryan and have him defend it every week over 2-3 segments on Raw. He'll basically be the Million Dollar Champ or the TV champ or whatever and he can hold that belt forever against different guys and they can blow segments off, make him come off as dominant, appease the fan base on some level, and keep him out of the main event. And if his matches tank in the ratings, then that's all the ammo they need to depush him anyway. If they do well, then they have every reason to keep doing what they're doing. That's even better than giving him a year long tag title reign with Dolph. It's no lose for what Vince wants. Perhaps it would be better to break the roster up back into a Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, and possibly a Middleweight grouping. Each groupings have tag team champions too. This way they could keep guys of relative size together to work with each other. If you really want to get cute make an Openweight Championship ala New Japan for the badasses to compete in and book some interesting match-ups that way. Anything along these routes would be better than sticking Bryan and Ziggler together for a meaningless tag run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Ok, here's what to do. I got this idea from reading Gary Hart's book and his explanation for why he created the TV title and had it defended in 2/3 matches. He needed to cut two matches out of the TV taping since he was giving too much away that night. WWE Can't fill their 3 hours easily. They need to make the freaking Americas title for Bryan and have him defend it every week over 2-3 segments on Raw. He'll basically be the Million Dollar Champ or the TV champ or whatever and he can hold that belt forever against different guys and they can blow segments off, make him come off as dominant, appease the fan base on some level, and keep him out of the main event. And if his matches tank in the ratings, then that's all the ammo they need to depush him anyway. If they do well, then they have every reason to keep doing what they're doing. That's even better than giving him a year long tag title reign with Dolph. It's no lose for what Vince wants. That is the best idea if you are the WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 That's part of it, but the other part of it is that the people who are cheering him the most are the wrestling diehards. As a corporate entity, as Jerome said earlier, WWE is looking for a face for their brand. They don't care that Bryan gets over like he does with live crowds because he's always going to do that. They care about everything else that goes with it and frankly believe he can't do it. You know, except for the tons of interviews he's done since becoming a top guy and him obviously being able to a good company representative. Or having the "Yes" chant get over in other sports. But hey, what do I know? I think WWE's audience is pretty much the diehards right now. And they are invested in Brian. He's always done press, he doesn't fit their mold, but he does well. They wanted him as a featured player, they still do. But they are struggling with his use, and how to make money off it. There was an interview, DB talking about the personality tests they take. Something about how his ambition to be the best didn't show up in their data. I think there's something kind of there in that anecdote. There's something there, but it's not in their numbers. In a corporate world, with it's love of empirical data, this guy is.. "ehh, suurrrre." But the eyes and ear test tells you such a different story. It must be just driving them mad! ha! Anyone else find it funny that they'd be choosing numbers over narrative in wrestling? Cuz I'm cracking up, cuz! Ignore the numbers, go with the narrative.. What is wrestling without narrative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 That's part of it, but the other part of it is that the people who are cheering him the most are the wrestling diehards. As a corporate entity, as Jerome said earlier, WWE is looking for a face for their brand. They don't care that Bryan gets over like he does with live crowds because he's always going to do that. They care about everything else that goes with it and frankly believe he can't do it. You know, except for the tons of interviews he's done since becoming a top guy and him obviously being able to a good company representative. Or having the "Yes" chant get over in other sports. But hey, what do I know? There was an interview, DB talking about the personality tests they take. Something about how his ambition to be the best didn't show up in their data. I think there's something kind of there in that anecdote. Daniel Bryan is a motivated hippie, which is frankly a bit of an oxymoron, and definitely out of line with the classic star model. Hulk Hogan and John Cena and the Rock - they are unabashed capitalists. Steve Austin is perhaps the most specifically capitalistic star of all-time - while he's fighting the man, he's a blue collar worker trying to get ahead. Steve Austin the character feels like he would vaguely hate Daniel Bryan the character. Isn't the laid back quality one of the things that made it hard for them to get behind Rob Van Dam? RVD was also over like crazy at times during his run (I sort of dropped out of watching after 2002, but I've seen some going backwards). But you can absolutely see why Vince would talk to Rob and think that he lacked the "will to be the best" or "ruthless aggression" or whatever. And the same with Bryan, who clearly wants to be the best but isn't going to say he's going to rip someone's heart out to do it. You can see how Vince, despite his issues with Punk or Jericho, would understand them far more easily than Bryan. And if Vince can't understand someone, can't see himself in them... maybe he can never fully put his heart into someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 The problem is that sometimes it takes lots and lots of pushing for the numbers to catch up. Steve Austin wasn't really a difference maker until 1998, even though it was clear long before that he was the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 although, to be honest, how many guys really moved anything in the 1997 WWF pre-Montreal? there's a way to escalate an sudden issue/misunderstanding between Ziggler and Bryan to make that match mean something. I'd prefer Rollins vs Bryan since I don't really like Rollins/Orton a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 The problem is that sometimes it takes lots and lots of pushing for the numbers to catch up. Steve Austin wasn't really a difference maker until 1998, even though it was clear long before that he was the guy. That was one of the most interesting things to me as I rewatched the '96-'98 TV week to week. It took a long time for Austin to become AUSTIN. The compressed narrative always makes it sound like he dropped the 3:16 line on Jake and a few months later, he was bigger than Hogan. But honestly, did he ever feel like a bigger star than Bret before Bret left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 The problem is that sometimes it takes lots and lots of pushing for the numbers to catch up. Steve Austin wasn't really a difference maker until 1998, even though it was clear long before that he was the guy. That was one of the most interesting things to me as I rewatched the '96-'98 TV week to week. It took a long time for Austin to become AUSTIN. The compressed narrative always makes it sound like he dropped the 3:16 line on Jake and a few months later, he was bigger than Hogan. But honestly, did he ever feel like a bigger star than Bret before Bret left? This and the other post about Austin are great examples of What NEEDS done…it takes a while for a guy to hit it off with everyone…Austin was main eventing PPV in May 97 when the WWF was tanking at record levels…over time that changed. Today, Austin would have been put aside, especially after his neck injury in 97 and they would have moved on, never giving him the main event again…can you imagine how different the landscape would be today? So I think, why do they have that past and not do the same today? They don't have the opportunity..WHy? They are public Stock Holders (Major Holders with Money) don't give a fuck about "building a guy" up over time to make him big..they want results and a guaranteed return now or tomorrow at the latest…because of that, I don't think the WWE will ever be able to allow someone to slowly grow anymore…and that puts a lot of hopes and wishes by us out the windows.. Telling stock holders "we have faith that this guy, with 12 months of build and working with him, will make us lots of money" doesn't work…their reply is the same as Henry Hill's from Goodfellas - "Fuck You, Pay Me" That is why, to me, they don't take long term chances anymore. With Cena in 2003, they had other major stars still on top (guys from the attitude era that had name value and allowed them to groom him. Those guys are all gone now and I think they are terrified to take a chance as stockholders might run…and losing the 300 millions in a day or so last year only makes that fear worse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Stock Holders (Major Holders with Money) don't give a fuck about "building a guy" up over time to make him big..they want results and a guaranteed return now or tomorrow at the latest…because of that, I don't think the WWE will ever be able to allow someone to slowly grow anymore…and that puts a lot of hopes and wishes by us out the windows.. This is where my bullshit monitor goes off. You don't need to force ANYONE into being the top guy. If the machine is running correctly, you have a guy on top, and you have guys ready to come in and fill the gap if there's a better option. This isn't about pleasing the stockholders. Considering Bryan was a good draw (not a world-beating draw), sells merch (although not nearly as much as Cena, which nobody does) and is over with the core of their fanbase, there's no reason not to give him a run until there was NO DOUBT about Reigns being ready to be on top. That's Vince's stubbornness being turned into an easily pushed aside excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 The difference is more the lack of competition than going public, IF anything. But Vince has always shot the big guys straight to the top or rushed them out of developmental. You can't blame the stock market for The Ultimate Warrior being made WWF Champion five years into his career. Ditto Diesel. The joke with Lashley was that they had to hide him from Vince because he would want to call him up as soon as he had laid eyes on him. By Vince's standards, Roman Reigns is on the typical time course for a guy he's grooming to be the next big thing. Early on, they did a better job than most of preparing him for that position. But ever since he got injured, they've cocked things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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