Who is your least favourite person associated with wrestling period?

[dawho5]

I have to agree with Johnny on the original purpose of the thread. It does give posters a chance to rant about people who piss them off though, which can be a good thing. I have a hard time with the idea of the fawning co-host of a show hosted by a former wrestling promoter being "associated with wrestling" though. I'm sure anyone who has talked wrestling with co-workers has had to deal with a few who buy into the WWE myths wholesale and can't imagine there are other wrestlers worth watching. I've run into that once or twice before I stopped talking wrestling much at work and I can say it didn't make me hate anybody, just made me not want to talk wrestling with them. Associated with the business would be something far more solid to me.

[pol]

Since this is supposed to be trivial bitching, I guess I'll throw Bryan Alvarez's name out there. Awful writer, very limited knowledge of wrestling but still insists on debating Dave on issues where he's completely out of his depth and, worse still, once he gets an idea in his head he absolutely refuses to budge on it even after Dave articulates reasons X, Y and Z why it's nonsense, and will go running to his buddies like Vinny and Todd to repeat the same tired points to someone who isn't as capable of countering them.

[Strand Peanut]

 

 

 

 

 

The photo part was referring to JerryvonKramer.

 

No, nothing else, just that wrestling was a sport until Vince McMahon came in really isn't true. Hate Vince all you want, but let's not go crazy here.

I never said wrestling was a real sport. I said it was presented as a real sport to the fans. No need for insults

I'm not insulting you. I'm disagreeing with you.

You called him crazy.

 

Also, you're missing the mark here. He's speaking about presentation. How wrestlers presented as mixture of heroes and villians within their sport.

 

Even tho the audience knew the distinction between pro wrestling as sport. And the layers of seriousness within pro wrestling.

 

As an aside.. Jarret's Memphis, much like the WWF(E), has always taken heavy knocks for it's cartoonish presentation.

What about the Frankenstiens Monster in LA or the wrestling bear in multiple territories? None of that could be considered a serious sport in presentation, and they all took place without any involvement from Vince Mcmahon,

 

Jack Pfefer was exposing wrestling as a massive con and making a ton of money from it long before Vince was even born.

This isn't about exposing the business, or people thinking it's a shoot. It's about aesthetic and presentation.

 

And I think everyone can see there are differences to fans.

 

It's funny, this argument over Vince Jr has been going on for so long.. Vince not treating wrestlling as a sport has always been part of it. And the mention of "sport" tends to side track it here.

 

It can obfuscate the point.

 

Is the a folder for the wrestling bears in The Microscope? Anyone got mad wrestling bear knowledge.. send me a message!

[...TG]

 

Also, Hogan, for perpetuating the idea that in-ring talent and speaking skills have less to do with stardom potential than size, and for lying about absolutely everything all the time, even when there is no reason to do so.

 

 

I completely agree with this but doesn't Vince have to take at least half blame? Or even most of it? I mean we are still dealing with this shit today

 

 

 

. Is there anyone in wrestling that considers him a marginal talent or someone who had a stupid gimmick?

 

 

Herb Kunze?

 

 

"Now that's a name I've not heard in a long time..."

[NintendoLogic]

As for the "Vince killed the territories" nonsense: the territory system was rotten to the core. All it took to bring it crashing down was a little push. If Vince hadn't killed the territories, cable would have.

[JerryvonKramer]

Not to go too far off topic, but I think there's a very good argument to say that Verne would have.

[UKWildcat]

As for the "Vince killed the territories" nonsense: the territory system was rotten to the core. All it took to bring it crashing down was a little push. If Vince hadn't killed the territories, cable would have.

+1

[Loss]

I also don't know that if someone else had won the war, they could have sustained a healthy business as long as Vince has. I love Bill Watts, but he was out of touch with the public in 1992 (at least at first) and there's no way he'd still be working as much as Vince does in 2015. And he's the best alternative candidate to win the war. Jerry Jarrett I do think understood the audience at large pretty well, but he wasn't willing to spend money to make money. Everyone else was so overwhelmingly stuck in their ways (which says a lot because Vince pretty strongly resembles that remark himself) that they could not have sustained in the long term.

[JerryvonKramer]

Loss, the reason I mention Verne is because by all accounts the AWA were gearing up for expansion as early as 1982. Verne was not like the other NWA promoters, remember that he'd already "gone rogue" and gone to war in Chicago and elsewhere and come out on top. He ran a rival World Title. So in effect, Verne was a bit of a lone wolf compared to all the others.

 

I don't know where the AWA would have made incursions first. I think LA and the West Coast was there for the taking following the demise of La Bell and Shires. He had guys like Ray Stevens and Bockwinkel on the books who were big names in that region. Hogan, if he'd kept him, would have gotten over there.

 

Verne also had the TV. He got that ESPN slot fairly early on. He also had major towns like Chicago and the Twin Cities to rely on, which Watts didn't really have.

 

In an environment with no Vince, I think in time the AWA would have start to grow.

[Dylan Waco]

Verne's method of expansion was poorly thought out and destined to fail.

 

The whole thing is a weird thought experiment, because I think we all agree that someone would have gone national eventually even without Vince, but it's hard to envision anyone who was on the landscape at the time who would have been successful

[JerryvonKramer]

What was his actual plan Dylan?

[UKWildcat]

Remember, the seeds were already planted with a national promotion with the old IWA

[UKWildcat]

Loss, the reason I mention Verne is because by all accounts the AWA were gearing up for expansion as early as 1982. Verne was not like the other NWA promoters, remember that he'd already "gone rogue" and gone to war in Chicago and elsewhere and come out on top. He ran a rival World Title. So in effect, Verne was a bit of a lone wolf compared to all the others.I don't know where the AWA would have made incursions first. I think LA and the West Coast was there for the taking following the demise of La Bell and Shires. He had guys like Ray Stevens and Bockwinkel on the books who were big names in that region. Hogan, if he'd kept him, would have gotten over there.Verne also had the TV. He got that ESPN slot fairly early on. He also had major towns like Chicago and the Twin Cities to rely on, which Watts didn't really have.In an environment with no Vince, I think in time the AWA would have start to grow.

Remember Verne was already moving into San Francisco at this time. His promotion was ranging from Chicago to Minnesota to Denver to San Fran

[UKWildcat]

Why do I keep typing "remember"?!?

[Zoo Enthusiast]

Bryan Alvarez,I think. He just is what I see as the basest of the base when it comes to smarkdom. It got to the point where I canceled my F4W subscription.

 

Cabana (and Punk, for that matter) would be in the discussion for me, too.

[Dylan Waco]

What Verne did was push westward. In and of itself that's not a bad idea, because there were open spaces that were easy to fill with little challenge, and other places where the long timer promotions were either dead, or on their ass ready to be destroyed by any competitor worth a shit. Some of these towns ended up being very important to Verne, namely Denver and Salt Lake City, which was actually the best town for them by far in the dying days if you can imagine that.

 

The problem was threefold as I see it.

 

Firstly the trips were really long. You rarely hear AWA guys bitch about this in interviews the way you do say Stampede or Watts guys, and I think in part that is because the AWA schedule was a bit lighter IIRC (the western towns were monthly, not weekly), and Verne was flying at least some of the talent out to some of these shows at points (perhaps not as early as 82, but I know it was happening a year or so later). Having said that these towns were really far apart, with not a lot in between. In other words these "big" shows were not as easy to integrate into a regular schedule as shows in the Midwest/home region were. I think this is one of the reasons that they were never really able to take off in Phoenix for example - you could run there, but if you didn't draw a good house it was a far tract for a one off failure, surrounded (maybe) by some weak spots shows, in small towns, with no connection to your brand.

 

The talent roster, while really underrated in my view, was not particularly well suited for expansion in the early 80's. Yes you had Hogan, but you also had a lot of older talent, or talent that felt "regional" and I don't think there is any reason to believe that Verne would have had a clue how to repackage these guys to take advantage of their strengths and obscure their weaknesses. In fact I'm not sure if there was a promoter in the country less likely to have been successful at that than Verne in 1982.

 

Finally, and most importantly, focusing exclusively on Westward expansion, and pushing to the coast in particular was just stupid. There "big prize" and the end point of all of those trips was the Bay Area, a territory that had been killed dead by the late 70's, and a place which was hands down Verne's worst drawing market of any size. It simply was not worth it to run there, given the travel costs, especially when you consider the fact that Verne had absolutely great opportunities for logical, and geographically contiguous expansion right there in places like St. Louis (which was ripe right around the time Verne was looking for expansion, and even if you want to argue the town was being killed off, the costs of failure their were MUCH lower), and the old Ohio/Indiana/Michigan region, which had a multitude of big markets that could have been exploited.

[Shining Wiz]

Cabana I like on the podcast, not so much otherwise. I've met him twice, and while he wasn't awful, he kind of comes off pompous. Also sat through watching him watch bad wrestling.....not that fun really.

[KrisZ]

The problem was that Verne already had his hand in St. Louis as one of the owners plus he had way too many alliances with other promoters that he wasn't going to go in their territories. Notice he picked the Bay Area after Roy Shire left and Salt Lake City was nothing before he started going there. He got Chicago after Bob Luce retired and eventually started running Indianapolis after he felt out with the Bruiser.

 

VKM had no allegiances to any promoters in the NWA like his father did hence he had no reservations in taking them out to achieve his goal of worldwide domination.

[SteveJRogers]

My pick: Brock Lesnar. I understand the "big star" and "train wreck" appeal he brings to the table, but I just don't care. He's dead weight on the mic,

 

To say nothing about his unwillingness to learn or grow as a "character."

 

Perfect example, the reason Heyman is back despite a severly burnt bridge between Paul and the company, as well as Paul being DONE with the business, moved on and was in a healthier place to the point that he was never going back to ANY promotion. BUT Brock hated talking SO much, and didn't want to start fresh with a brand new mouthpiece, he demamded they bring back Heyman.

 

It worked out of course, with Heyman adding more credentials to a HOF career, but it was only because Lesnar wanted nothing to do with talking and needed Heyman specifically.

[goc]

I am not sure if that is Brock not wanting to do the talking segments so much as not wanting to deal with them heavily scripting him and all the bullshit that goes with it. He is a pretty good talker when he wants to be, he was very good at it in his UFC days.

[SteveJRogers]

I am not sure if that is Brock not wanting to do the talking segments so much as not wanting to deal with them heavily scripting him and all the bullshit that goes with it. He is a pretty good talker when he wants to be, he was very good at it in his UFC days.

 

That's fair, but the story as Heyman tells it, Lesnar bombed on a promo on Cena one Raw, simply walked to the back and said "I WANT MY JEW" meaning Heyman.

 

Not "LET ME TALK YOU DILLWEEDS" or "CAN I GET SOMEONE TO SAY THE CRAP YOU ARE FEEDING ME?"

 

And for what it's worth, Paul scripts his own promos, Lesnar could have gotten away with demanding that he'd do his own. Which again goes back to the point, they bent over backwards to appease him by bringing in someone who wanted no part of returning any time soon, and while the hatchet was easily buried at the point of his return, it does seem to speak to Lesnar having a lack of self awareness or social skills to consider the factors behind Heyman's departure at the end of 2006, and realize that it is a subject that probably should have been drawn out, and done with more tact (i.e. Triple H opening conversation channels for a possible HOF induction) than just a spur of the moment demand.

 

I mean, think about it. A guy gets fired due to one last clash with management, after YEARS of constant butting heads and clashing egos with those above you. Then 5 years later, with the same people in charge, the company decides "you know, we really could use that guy back, even though we both were dicks and hate each other." Simply because the guy's protegee gets hired by the company and "demands" that the guy get a job (and not a "if I have a job, then you'll have one" deal).

 

Sure hatchets can get buried, but only in entertainment, and sports (see Martin, Bill and Steinbrenner, George) would it be that fast, but you'd think in real life versions of that scenario, things like that would take weeks, maybe months of ego massaging negotiations, and not spur of the moment "GET HIM HERE NOW" demands.

[cm funk]

What Verne did was push westward. In and of itself that's not a bad idea, because there were open spaces that were easy to fill with little challenge, and other places where the long timer promotions were either dead, or on their ass ready to be destroyed by any competitor worth a shit. Some of these towns ended up being very important to Verne, namely Denver and Salt Lake City, which was actually the best town for them by far in the dying days if you can imagine that.

 

The problem was threefold as I see it.

 

Firstly the trips were really long. You rarely hear AWA guys bitch about this in interviews the way you do say Stampede or Watts guys, and I think in part that is because the AWA schedule was a bit lighter IIRC (the western towns were monthly, not weekly), and Verne was flying at least some of the talent out to some of these shows at points (perhaps not as early as 82, but I know it was happening a year or so later). Having said that these towns were really far apart, with not a lot in between. In other words these "big" shows were not as easy to integrate into a regular schedule as shows in the Midwest/home region were. I think this is one of the reasons that they were never really able to take off in Phoenix for example - you could run there, but if you didn't draw a good house it was a far tract for a one off failure, surrounded (maybe) by some weak spots shows, in small towns, with no connection to your brand.

 

The talent roster, while really underrated in my view, was not particularly well suited for expansion in the early 80's. Yes you had Hogan, but you also had a lot of older talent, or talent that felt "regional" and I don't think there is any reason to believe that Verne would have had a clue how to repackage these guys to take advantage of their strengths and obscure their weaknesses. In fact I'm not sure if there was a promoter in the country less likely to have been successful at that than Verne in 1982.

 

Finally, and most importantly, focusing exclusively on Westward expansion, and pushing to the coast in particular was just stupid. There "big prize" and the end point of all of those trips was the Bay Area, a territory that had been killed dead by the late 70's, and a place which was hands down Verne's worst drawing market of any size. It simply was not worth it to run there, given the travel costs, especially when you consider the fact that Verne had absolutely great opportunities for logical, and geographically contiguous expansion right there in places like St. Louis (which was ripe right around the time Verne was looking for expansion, and even if you want to argue the town was being killed off, the costs of failure their were MUCH lower), and the old Ohio/Indiana/Michigan region, which had a multitude of big markets that could have been exploited.

 

On the 2nd point, Vince was amazing at taking older guys and repackaging with cartoonish gimmicks and turning them into bigger stars and making more money for them and him than they ever did before. I feel like if he'd gotten his hands on Bruiser and Crusher in the mid 80's he would have done huge business with them by turning them into exaggerated over the top cartoon characters. Verne never had that kind of vision of stuff that could get over nationally, and to kids, and to people who didn't necessarily like wrestling

 

As far as the westward rather than midwest expansion, I think KrisZ put it pretty well, that Verne had respect for the old territory system and didn't want to step on toes. He was a bit of a 'lone wolf' as someone said, as Vince Sr. was, but he still respected the territorial boundaries. He went into Denver, Salt Lake, Arizona etc. because nobody was really promoting in those places. He went into Cali because he'd already had a foothold in that area and saw LA and San Fran collapse and Shire and LeBell getting out of the business entirely, and probably had their blessing to step into the void that was there. Part of Verne's problem is that he just wasn't as cutthroat and ruthless as Vince was when it came to going national, because he had a lot of respect for the territorial system and the individual promoters involved. He was older, and had personal relationships with a lot of these promoters. Vince Jr. did not have that

[JerryvonKramer]

Great contributions by Dylan, Kris and cm funk.

 

I wonder how much St. Louis might have been a place that Verne might have really cracked. They never liked Vince's presentation there, the more cartoony stuff. It was a proper wrestling town, and Verne for all his faults, loved that style of proper technical wrestling. He might have given it to them too, plus Bruiser was a big guy there and he had him, but I don't know how important getting over in St. Louis actually was in the overall scheme of things. HOWEVER, if you watch any WWF TV from 1984, Vince does make a pretty big song and dance about running shows there and having Hogan defend the belt there. Name-dropping of St. Louis is all over those TNT shows, but I don't know if that actually meant anything to anyone beyond Vince, industry insiders and people from the St. Louis area.

 

I do agree that Verne lacked the killer instincts of Vince, I'm just saying that IN TIME, in a Vince-less environment, he would have grown. He had cable and he had some means to expand. I think he was more likely to do it than any of the NWA promoters. Although I do agree that creatively Bill Watts is the only one who'd make a product actually good enough to go national -- famously he outdrew JCP and WWF when they all had the slots on TBS and that was purely through having the better TV.

 

What was Verne's relationship with Watts? We're getting into stupid "what if" territory now, but what if Verne and Watts joined forces? AWA roster on its own didn't have all the tools, but add it to Watts's roster and all of a sudden it's not looking too shabby.

[sek69]

Since this is supposed to be trivial bitching, I guess I'll throw Bryan Alvarez's name out there. Awful writer, very limited knowledge of wrestling but still insists on debating Dave on issues where he's completely out of his depth and, worse still, once he gets an idea in his head he absolutely refuses to budge on it even after Dave articulates reasons X, Y and Z why it's nonsense, and will go running to his buddies like Vinny and Todd to repeat the same tired points to someone who isn't as capable of countering them.

 

Todd absolutely losing his shit at Bryan during the "CM Punk will never ever return to WWE" was an all time classic moment though. Bryan even apologized afterwards realizing he took his contrarian gimmick* too far.

 

 

 

*He's stated on several occasions he purposely plays a troll gimmick to get a rise out of people like Todd, you can tell the times he's talking to someone like Lance Storm he's like a different person.

[KrisZ]

Verne didn't get ESPN until Summer 1985 which wouldn't have happened probably if not for WWF getting big ratings on USA.

 

Verne & Watts were friendly but they weren't business partners per se.....Watts did show AWA matches on Power Pro in 1985 and got a booking on the Road Warriors