kjh Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Keep in mins the current ROH champ is going to NXT sooner rather than later (I'm hearing 6/20 may be his last show). Maybe not as soon as Triple H wanted though. I just don't know why WWE would be out to destroy the indies when they barely made the effort to do anything predatory to TNA during the time TNA had lots of money and big stars. For years Dave Meltzer has said how upset WWE was at the indies piggybacking off the success of WrestleMania by holding house shows the same weekend in the same place, because they believed that money should be theirs and theirs alone. Ring Of Honor was most guilty of this. Plus, like El-P and KrisZ said, this is all about Triple H following in his father-in-law's footsteps and proving his chops as a promoter. What better way than beating the indies at their own game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Then why did they wait until after the ROH show was sold out to even announce it? Don't they need the indies to stick around to replenish NXT when NXT guys get called up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 If we end up with a developmental training team of Sara Del Rey, Joe, Cesaro, etc., they won't need the indies to poach from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 A lot of indies would survive. I think Ring of Honor would be the biggest loser in this. I think PWG would survive off of being a hipster hang out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 ROH will be fine unless NXT runs the ROH circuit and forces fans to choose between the 2 shows. For some markets, it would be a godsend to get more quality wrestling (South Texas for example). ROH will survive the loss of Briscoe just liked they survived the loss of Styles, Bryan, Low-Ki, Joe, Punk, Generico, Steen, Edwards, Richards, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 I'm surprised the WWE is interested in the Briscoes, especially when one of them is a homophobic douchebag and complete liability to a corporate-minded, publicly-traded company. No matter how good they may (or may not) be, they're not worth the potential headaches. It's not like either of them are the next Rock or Cena, especially in a company that has historically de-emphasized tag team wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 I wish the best for every promotion, but I'm amused by the thought of a world where the second biggest wrestling company in America is Hoodslam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 A lot of people (not here) are awful mad about WWE trying to 'kill the indies'. I'm about the least capitalistic person there is, but I think if you're going to have capitalism, it's to the benefit of the workers to have more competition and more places to choose from to work. It seems like a lot of people are siding with the indie promoters, for whom this is undoubtedly a bad thing, over the workers, for whom it's probably a good thing. If WWE drives up pay and forces more indies to give guaranteed contracts, that's a good thing. I guess the concern is that WWE uses its muscle to establish a monopoly on the indie scene, driving everyone else out of business and ultimately resulting in less choice for the workers, but is that really a concern? Sinclair is a bigger company than WWE and could easily go toe-to-toe with them at that level if they were willing to actually spend some money. I guess the worry would be that nobody else can afford to pay enough to compete with the promise of a main roster WWE slot (whether WWE actually plans on delivering on that promise or not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Wrestling fans have a weirdly anti-wrestler stance in a lot of ways. I don't think it's a matter of economics/politics, just that wrestling fans will turn on anyone who looks out for themselves versus the promoter (see Brock Lesnar at the moment) because he's not being one of the boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 I guess the concern is that WWE uses its muscle to establish a monopoly on the indie scene, driving everyone else out of business and ultimately resulting in less choice for the workers, but is that really a concern? Sinclair is a bigger company than WWE and could easily go toe-to-toe with them at that level if they were willing to actually spend some money. I guess the worry would be that nobody else can afford to pay enough to compete with the promise of a main roster WWE slot (whether WWE actually plans on delivering on that promise or not). The problem is that Sinclair really doesn't want to spend money on ROH. Joe Koff went cap in hand to the Sinclair execs at the turn of the year and came up empty. They're not going to get into a bidding war with WWE for any talent. Plus, I could see Sinclair quickly souring on ROH if they start racking up losses because NXT is regularly running against them, and wanting to cash out by selling the ROH tape library to WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kostka Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Keep in mins the current ROH champ is going to NXT sooner rather than later (I'm hearing 6/20 may be his last show). Not Mark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I am not advocating this at all, but if they moved Daniel Bryan to NXT and built around him, could they upgrade to slightly bigger buildings? I think so. The Cleveland show sold out at 1,100 according to the WON. The usual (current) ECW Arena Set up holds about 1,000. So at least in that small sample, they are running about 1,000 seat venues. The next step up then would be 1,500 - 2,000 capacity buildings I'd think. I think if NXT was built around Bryan they would have a good shot of adding the 500 - 1,000 fans needed to make that step up. Just in terms of the "indie audience", I think having Bryan on top would give them a boost. On paper Bryan vs. Itami, Owens, Zayn, Neville, and Balor feel like bigger/fresher matches than any of those guys wrestling each other. Bryan vs. KENTA was a big match on the indies and those two haven't had a singles match in 6 1/2 years (they haven't had a singles match in the US in almost 8 years). Its hard to imagine that they couldn't do 1,800+ in Philly, New York, Chicago, ect. (historically strong ROH cities where ROH draws 1,000-ish currently) with that match on top, particularly if they avoided running it on TV before hand. Bryan only wrestled Pac once (in the UK in 2009) and as far as I am aware, he's never wrestled Devitt. I feel like those matches would probably entice the ROH/indie audience. Beyond that, Bryan headlined house shows are drawing in the 4,000 range recently with him and Kane working singles matches on top. Obviously he has help below on those shows underneath and they benefit from being promoted as "main roster" WWE shows. At the same time, you are only talking about needing a couple of hundred more casual fans to go to an NXT show for Bryan to make it worth it. I don't think its a stretch to say that could happen. As you said, not sure they should do it unless they have a specific end game in mind to "elevate" NXT from developmental brand to secondary brand. I am not sure that they do. I also have a feeling that the novelty of NXT will wear off at some point. It will be interesting to see what happens if they start going back to non-FL cities a second, third, or fourth time. If the interest level remains high, eventually they will have to elevate those guys up the ladder or at least start compensating them similar to the main roster wrestlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I am not advocating this at all, but if they moved Daniel Bryan to NXT and built around him, could they upgrade to slightly bigger buildings? I think so. The Cleveland show sold out at 1,100 according to the WON. The usual (current) ECW Arena Set up holds about 1,000. So at least in that small sample, they are running about 1,000 seat venues. The next step up then would be 1,500 - 2,000 capacity buildings I'd think. I think if NXT was built around Bryan they would have a good shot of adding the 500 - 1,000 fans needed to make that step up. Just in terms of the "indie audience", I think having Bryan on top would give them a boost. On paper Bryan vs. Itami, Owens, Zayn, Neville, and Balor feel like bigger/fresher matches than any of those guys wrestling each other. Bryan vs. KENTA was a big match on the indies and those two haven't had a singles match in 6 1/2 years (they haven't had a singles match in the US in almost 8 years). Its hard to imagine that they couldn't do 1,800+ in Philly, New York, Chicago, ect. (historically strong ROH cities where ROH draws 1,000-ish currently) with that match on top, particularly if they avoided running it on TV before hand. Bryan only wrestled Pac once (in the UK in 2009) and as far as I am aware, he's never wrestled Devitt. I feel like those matches would probably entice the ROH/indie audience. Beyond that, Bryan headlined house shows are drawing in the 4,000 range recently with him and Kane working singles matches on top. Obviously he has help below on those shows underneath and they benefit from being promoted as "main roster" WWE shows. At the same time, you are only talking about needing a couple of hundred more casual fans to go to an NXT show for Bryan to make it worth it. I don't think its a stretch to say that could happen. As you said, not sure they should do it unless they have a specific end game in mind to "elevate" NXT from developmental brand to secondary brand. I am not sure that they do. I also have a feeling that the novelty of NXT will wear off at some point. It will be interesting to see what happens if they start going back to non-FL cities a second, third, or fourth time. If the interest level remains high, eventually they will have to elevate those guys up the ladder or at least start compensating them similar to the main roster wrestlers. I agree with this take. I think a great angle that would revitalize him would be for The Authority to take him off of TV with the idea that he doesn't belong on the big stage. Everyone knows NXT is HHH's baby, and he'll be right under HHH's thumb. In the meantime, Bryan conquers the odds in NXT and becomes their top veteran with the other top indy stars aiming to knock him off the throne until he eventually does a real torch passing and finds his way back on regular television. In his absence, a #BringBackBryan movement could get some steam on social media too. And in the meantime, the only way to see him every week is to subscribe to the WWE Network. Of course, his ceiling is much higher than this, but he's never going to get there, so this would actually be a productive way to use him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 As bad as it is for guys we like on the main roster, sending the few remaining guys worth watching down to developmental is not the answer. If they start sending the Bryan's and Cesaro's and Harper's back to work with NXT talent, then there really is no point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 As bad as it is for guys we like on the main roster, sending the few remaining guys worth watching down to developmental is not the answer. If they start sending the Bryan's and Cesaro's and Harper's back to work with NXT talent, then there really is no point. Yea, I am seeing things like this more and more, it's kind of ridiculous. Wrestlers care about their booking MOSTLY in relation to how it affects their paycheck. Sure, some guys would take less money if it meant they got to be the champ, but most guys only care about being booked like shit because it costs them money. Only the purest of marks would want to leave the main roster to go to NXT just so they could have "good booking." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Not to say Bryan doesn't care about money, but I also get the impression he cares about being able to have great matches in front of appreciative crowds more than the average wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Bryan, up until the day after Fast Lane, hasn't had to worry about appreciative crowds. It's the rest of the roster that is wrestling in silence right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 In the scenario described it's not at all clear they would be "sent back to developmental" because it's not clear that's what NXT would be. It's increasingly unclear if that's really what it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 There is no scenario presented so far that sees moving from the main roster to NXT as a lateral move or a promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I wasn't even suggesting sending him to NXT so he could reap the benefits of good booking. I was thinking that if they really wanted to make it a strong touring act and compete with independents, using a guy who was a consistent indy draw for nearly a decade isn't the worst way to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Wrestling fans have a weirdly anti-wrestler stance in a lot of ways. I don't think it's a matter of economics/politics, just that wrestling fans will turn on anyone who looks out for themselves versus the promoter (see Brock Lesnar at the moment) because he's not being one of the boys. this is far from just a wrestling thing look at basically any labor dispute in sports - the general public sides with the owners over the players, almost without fail. at least in the US, there's a tendency not to view performers as having agency or being complex human beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I wasn't even suggesting sending him to NXT so he could reap the benefits of good booking. I was thinking that if they really wanted to make it a strong touring act and compete with independents, using a guy who was a consistent indy draw for nearly a decade isn't the worst way to do that. Fair enough. I don't like the idea of NXT being a touring independent where you take main roster guys to give it indy cred though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Generally people are selfish when it comes to these disputes want to be able to watch what they are used to watching without any disruption or change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 There is no scenario presented so far that sees moving from the main roster to NXT as a lateral move or a promotion. The only people that up until now who could even make an argument for that is Sin Cara and Tyson Kidd. Where they are underused and flawed talent on the main roster who get to work on things/mentor younger talent/take larger roles in NXT. Kidd especially took the opportunity to reinvent himself and retool for this tag team run with Cesaro and was able to lay the ground work while main eventing in NXT. But even I would call that a 'trip to the minors to figure stuff out' and not a lateral move and I love me some NXT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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