elliott Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Since the start of the GWE project, who are the workers whose stock is rising and falling for you? Who is rising on your list? Who is falling? What has convinced you one way or the other? No one is allowed to say Ric Flair. For the love of god please no one say Ric Flair. Stock Rising William Regal Regal went from somewhere in the 50s to a very likely top 25 worker. The complaint against Regal was always that he lacked MOTYC type matches and after rewatching or viewing for the first time stuff like the Arn match from SuperBrawl, the Larry Z series, the Hashimoto matches, Finlay from Uncensored, the Chris Hero match from NXT (This is one of my new favorite matches), etc I think Regal has some real classics to his name. Eddie Gilbert A guy I always dug in limited viewings but after binge watching a bunch of 89-90 WCW matches and then his early 90s indy run against Cactus, Funk, etc, I fucking love Eddie Gilbert. He's not someone who could reasonably crack my top 50 but I really like the guy and hes a lock for my list. Wahoo McDaniel The spiritual predecessor to 90s-00s Genichiro Tenryu and I will watch anything he's in. Seriously. I watched a match he had with Nailz in like 1995. It was terrible. But the clips from the 70s and Old Man Wahoo in the 80s is fucking amazing. Chris Adams I "like" Michael Hayes more in Texas, but I think Chris Adams is probably the best worker in World Class. Excellent as a face or heel in singles or tags. Had very good to great matches with Kerry, Kevin, Gordy (he had my favorite Gordy singles match ever), even Terry Taylor and some others I'm forgetting at the moment. I like Kerry and I know Gordy's usually considered great but that's not a murderers row. Butch Reed. I know I'm late on the game on this one. But Butch Reed. Holy shit. Stock Falling ( I hate to be negative and thats not the purpose of this project so I'll make this quick, some of these guys will make my list) Terry Gordy I talked about Gordy in his thread a bit. He had all the tools to be a GOAT contender but didn't put it together. Fit Finlay. Si made me watch a million Fit Finlay WOS matches one day and my opinion has never been lower. He had a few great matches (one in particular against Marty Jones) but he was never the best guy in the match. I should rewatch a lot of his late era WWF stuff to be fair but fuck I just don't ever watch to watch Fit Finlay again after Si's marathon. David von Erich I thought David was terrible even if I did like his jumping knee sometimes. Kerry and Kevin were much more enjoyable. Vader (ducks) Vader is great, I just don't view him as Top 15 guy anymore. Too many workers like Satanico, Fujiwara, Bockwinkel, Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee, Fujinami, Hashimoto, El Dandy, etc. have moved past him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Falling : Ric Flair. What ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Ok, let's be positive... Rising : Fujinami Choshu Tenryu Fujiwara TakadaLawler Anderson Martel Bockwinkel Baba Hansen Tamura (Kiyoshi) Maeda Sano 2 Cold Scorpio Morton Rey Rey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 No sense of humour at all. *sigh* (plus Flair will probably stay at the same level with me, or even grab a few places, so actually, you don't know) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 No sense of humour at all. *sigh* (plus Flair will probably stay at the same level with me, or even grab a few places, so actually, you don't know) Not funny, let's move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Oh yeah, it was pretty damn funny actually. Made myself smile. So, falling (not counting joshi and lucha, because I'm not sure if I'd vote for any of them, not having watch *anything* of that ilk since 2006) : Gordy Race Mutoh Chono Malenko Kojima Nagata Psicosis Owen Rude DiBiase Oh, and I forgot... Rising : Onita Dustin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Not all of Finlay's WoS work is bad. The first three years or so are amazing. Before he adopted the whole green and white shamrock look with the mullet and moustache, he was a phenomenal worker and I'd argue his tag team with Skull Murphy is good enough that he'd make a list of unexpectedly great tag wrestlers. When WoS is cancelled and wrestling becomes a stand alone show, and Finlay starts doing dates with both All-Star and Joint Promotions with Paula in his corner, that's when the quality drops off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Rising: Race - after hating much of his NWA title run, he's looked a lot better in 1982 and in the new footage on NWA classics. DiBiase - only in the sense that after thinking I'd completely made up my mind where he'd fall, new stuff came out on NWA classics as well as in skk dt's uploads. Kobashi - if Steamobat and Martel were the true heirs to Brisco, to me Kobashi is the true heir to those guys. The complete babyface. Wahoo - also helped by NWA classics. Gino Hernandez - the revelation of NWA classics. Taue - really really impressive in 95 Barry Windham - watching Battle of the Belts 2 again reminded me how good he was again and how young. Sort of guy that can slip through not having seen him in a while. Brock - still impresses every time I see him Falling Tiger Mask - I've not posted all my NJ reviews yet, but I pretty much never want to see him again. Chris Benoit - I'm not a guy who cares about what he did relative to his candicacy, but I've really not enjoyed his matches from my forays into late 90s / 00s. Eddie Gurrero - seemed to have moments of falling back to often on go to spots when I was watching his stuff a while back, when this started, Eddie might have been a top 10 guy for me, but now he's top 30. Kawada - in the sense that I was thinking of him as a 1-5 guy and now I'm thinking more of him as a 6-10 guy. Kurt Angle - go go go criticisms are real and difficult to ignore watching his stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 This is an interesting question for me. It's not been rising and falling so much as me filling in gaps in my viewing from when we started. Obviously, that makes certain people fall or rise by default, but it's not always due to their own actions. Then there are people who are rising in my estimation but that might not make my list anyway, like Duggan who's looked great in the new Houston footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Rising: Riki Choshu Stan Hansen Genichiro Tenryu Vader Kiyoshi Tamura Falling: Yuki Ishikawa Volk Han Mitsuharu Misawa (same thoughts that JvK has on Kawada) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentin Skinner Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Only major rise on my list has been Jun Akiyama. Been watching a ton of his stuff and he's gone from maybe top 30-35 to my top 5-10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazeUSA Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 rising: -Eric Embry -Kerry Von Erich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Here are some guys that have stood out. I could list a whole lot more Falling: Mitsuharu Misawa - sure wasn't good at all in the 80s. I'm midway through 93 in 80s and 90s AJPW and feel like he improved a ton in 1990 and then kinda just started treading water as a worker compared to the other big 4 who seem to be getting better by leaps and bounds each year. Kenta Kobashi - Great of course, but I feel like so many are better. Same with Taue, but like I said, I'm only into 93 in my chronological viewing Akira Taue The Destroyer - Based on his rep, I thought he would make my list for sure. Watched a bit of footage and was really disappointed Fit Finlay- Shrinking window of quality with the more I watch Rising: Sangre Chicana - Lack of prime footage is the only thing keeping him from the top of the heap Jose Lothario - Holy shit, wasn't even on my radar. The new footage on NWA Classics has made him one of my favorite guys to watch. Can't wait to see more Gino Hernandez - Ditto what I said about Lothario Brian Pillman - Great as a face, surprisingly good as a heel too Black Terry Negro Navarro - Have heard lots of praise, did't know where to start with him or Black Terry so I just jumped right in watching random youtube stuff on Cubsfan's match finder. Both are incredible. Two of my favorite lucha guys immediately Ricky Steamboat- His early 90s WCW run is incredibly good Yoji Anjoh- Has been the most impressive UWFi guy after Tamura And a ton of luchadores that I previously knew very little about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 The Destroyer - Based on his rep, I thought he would make my list for sure. Watched a bit of footage and was really disappointed Can you say any more? I did a ton of Destroyer reviews but never posted them. They are still on my iPad notebook. Thought he had great character work but was a bit boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted October 20, 2015 Report Share Posted October 20, 2015 The Destroyer - Based on his rep, I thought he would make my list for sure. Watched a bit of footage and was really disappointed Can you say any more? I did a ton of Destroyer reviews but never posted them. They are still on my iPad notebook. Thought he had great character work but was a bit boring. I was expecting some Billy Robinson style 70s super worker but what I got was kind of eh...He's a good wrestler and his matches are good but they always leave me underwhelmed. The matches I've seen seem kind of generic and casual with bits of Destroyer charisma. I'm always waiting for them to go somewhere and they never quite do. Just two guys vaguely struggling to pin or submit each other. Even when it gets vicious and intense it still seems subdued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Rising: Lawler - After watching the Bigelow match, I finally totally get the hype. Took me a while to get into my groove with him. Went from what's the big deal to an easy Top 20 candidate. Dick Murdoch - Through the fucking roof up. From knowing next to nothing, to being a huge fan. No feeling out process. Love at first sight. Murdoch understands that wrestling can be fun and serious without each undercutting the other. Top 50 candidate and I still have New Japan to watch! Duggan - Incredible, blue collar everyman babyface in Mid-South. The heir to Bruno. Two ***** classics in my opinion. He will make the bottom 10 of my list when before I didn't know if he would make my top 500. Kerry & Kevin Von Erich - This was not so much as rising as confirming my belief they were top 100 wrestlers, which used to be based on a handful matches and now based on a lot more. Kerry is so charismatic and Kevin is the king of struggle in matches. He really believe in the "think shoot, but work" mentality. Shawn Michaels - Rockers work is excellent, but hold the phone he has been producing in the 2000s when others have claimed weak offense. He went toe to toe with Benoit in 2004 and controlled most of the match in very convincing and stiff fashion. Add in that I have never been as down on his 90s singles work. Don't count the Heartbreak Kid out of this one, folks, he may make late run very high on my ballot. Plenty of matches to go. DDP - The dude knew how to lay out a barnburner. I forgot about him when discussing Northern style everymen characters. Loved the Die Hard gimmick. Perfect way to update Bruno into the sarcastic, caustic 90s. The Goldberg, Sting and Benoit matches are absolutely terrific matches from a layout perspective and always get massive reactions. Very similar to a Duggan going from a Top 500 guy to a Bottom 10 of my 100. Chris Benoit - I am dissociating the man and the wrestler. A total machine that is always moving forward really enjoyable stuff in WCW and WWE. Underrated seller to boot. Should make Top 25. Falling:Terry Gordy - Like the Von Erichs, just confirming my belief he was a good wrestler, but not an all-time great wrestler. He bumps big, but does not add much to the actual match he is. He is like a larger, goofier Mr. Perfect. Need to watch more of his All Japan. Hey, what the hell is a Gordy list? Sorry, I am tardy to the party. I think I could use a Gordy List for Gordy. Ted DiBiase - Hate to pig pile on him, but not seeing what made him special in Mid-South. Consistently the second best guy in his matches. Chris Jericho - I was once a huge Jericholic, but it was all flash and gimmick. Love the Ayatollah of Rock N Rollah and the Conspiracy Victim, but no meat on the bones match quality wise. Probably wont make my Top 100. Dean Malenko - One of my least favorite wrestlers of WCW late 90s, totally self-indulgent and no sense of flow. Memphis has been the Lawler show and he has been great. Savage was helped by Memphis and in how much of a star he came across so that's a bit of a boost for him. Naturally predisposed to like Savage because he is my second favorite American wrestler of all time. Texas has been the VonErich/Freebird show. Hayes is better than expected, but not Top 100 great. Mostly just confirming the suspicions based on a handful of matches.AWA is interesting. I have really liked it so far, but there is nothing that has made me move people up and down. Most of that is the AWA is the territory I have seen the most of beforehand. I am still feeling out Bock and Martel. Both could be Top 20 or Top 50. Hard to say at this point. Blackwell is a lock for Top 50, but I had seen enough thats where I would put him and this confirmed it. Buddy Rose case will be made in Portland. The AWA is that cherry on top that can push him up ten spots, but Portland will be a priority before this deadline. The Rockers at worst are third best tag team of all time and I think I can make the case for them as the greatest tag team of all time. That may be enough to get Marty into Top 100, we will see.Mid-South: Duggan and Murdoch have been stellar. DiBiase has been underwhelming. I will probably not have enough to watch enough Chavo Classic, but he was awesome also. Sell me on Butch Reed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Stock Up: Kiyoshi Tamura - Went from being a guy I barely remembered watching, to being a guy who I absolutely love to the point of him being on the cusp of a top twenty ranking. I'll add more comments to his thread soon, but I think he was a brilliant performer. Samoa Joe - Kind of a strange one, but I went back and watched some of his ROH and TNA work from his prime period recently, and it holds up very well. Sometimes when you go back and watch guys like this the aura/vibe is gone, but that's not the case with Joe which tells you it wasn't just a booking trick. Seemed like a marginal pick for my list when this started, now I'm fairly confident he'll make my bottom ten. Invader 1 - This is kind of old news at this point, but he's an all time great brawler. His sympathy selling, timing, and build to comebacks are among the best I've ever seen. Will do well on my ballot. Alexander Otsuka - One of the most progressive and interesting wrestlers of the last twenty years. I doubt there are ten people I get more excited to watch a new match from when they pop up. One of the most naturally talented wrestlers I've ever seen. Osamu Nishimura - Amazing wrestler, who is crazily underrated. I would rate him considerably above some of the darlings of Japanese wrestling (Hase, Muto, Kikuchi, et.). He climbs up my list with every match of his I see. Would love to hear Parv's thoughts on him. Atsushi Onita - All time great spectacle wrestler who I was on the fence about rating, and now I'm pretty sure I'll rate him reasonably high. Stock Down: Terry Gordy - Simply doesn't have the resume. Steve Williams - Should probably rewatch more AJPW, but watched a couple of random tags of his from there a few weeks ago and he just didn't stand out from the pack at all. Maybe unfair, but he's someone where I would need some strong recommendations to convince me at this point. Kevin Steen - I wanted to give him a chance so I rewatched some of his indie stuff and just no. Comically overrated wrestler. Was certainly capable, and had some fun matches, but constantly dragged down by his own bullshit. Nowhere near as good as a lot of indie wrestlers who are much less likely to get attention in the voting (Necro, Rave, Red, Matthews, et.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Folks should watch the Gordy v. Williams TX Death match posted on classics this week. That Dr. Death feud was Gordy's career best stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted October 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 edit: I opened this thread up to say "All of the BattlArts guys" and saw Dylan's post. Stock Up:Alexander Otsuka - One of the most progressive and interesting wrestlers of the last twenty years. I doubt there are ten people I get more excited to watch a new match from when they pop up. One of the most naturally talented wrestlers I've ever seen. I'm binge watching all the BattlArts on yearbooks and while Ikeda vs Ishikawa is obviously the standout feud, Otsuka is the standout worker. This is going to be a weird comparison but watching Otsuka I can't help but think he is the best version of Kurt Angle that could have existed (instead of the darkest timeline version that we got). Otsuka was Angle's vast potential realized. I am really itching to start getting all of the BattlArts footage that's available because Carl Greco is another guy I really love and want to watch all of his matches. What a fun promotion. If I was booking New Japan or All Japan in 96/97 I would try sign all of the BattlArts guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Osamu Nishimura - Amazing wrestler, who is crazily underrated. I would rate him considerably above some of the darlings of Japanese wrestling (Hase, Muto, Kikuchi, et.). He climbs up my list with every match of his I see. Would love to hear Parv's thoughts on him. I don't think I can do 00s Japan real justice in time, but I do want to sit down with maybe the top 20-30 ranked matches of the Ditch project and see what that sparks. I have a real curiosity about late four pillars, and Akiyama. Does this dude have anything that would be on the Ditch list? Atsushi Onita - All time great spectacle wrestler who I was on the fence about rating, and now I'm pretty sure I'll rate him reasonably high. While I'm at it, I am going to be taking a real look at Terry Funk in the 90s soon, and probably will be using Onita as a "benchmark" for it (for right or wrong). A lot of plates spinning but this and digging into Regal are in the pipeline soon. Steve Williams - Should probably rewatch more AJPW, but watched a couple of random tags of his from there a few weeks ago and he just didn't stand out from the pack at all. Maybe unfair, but he's someone where I would need some strong recommendations to convince me at this point. I have recently watched his most pimped matches: 04/16/94 - Steve Williams vs Toshiaki Kawada 07/28/94 - Steve Williams vs Mitsuharu Misawa And honestly his performances there are so far and away better than anything he'd done before that it was pretty shocking to me. I think his candiacy rests like 90% on that particular run, like 8% on Mid-South stuff with DiBiase and co, and like 2% on tagging with Gordy. Lawler - After watching the Bigelow match, I finally totally get the hype. Took me a while to get into my groove with him. Went from what's the big deal to an easy Top 20 candidate. Interesting, cos I'm still waiting for that penny to drop with Lawler. Dick Murdoch - Through the fucking roof up. From knowing next to nothing, to being a huge fan. No feeling out process. Love at first sight. Murdoch understands that wrestling can be fun and serious without each undercutting the other. Top 50 candidate and I still have New Japan to watch! Duggan - Incredible, blue collar everyman babyface in Mid-South. The heir to Bruno. Two ***** classics in my opinion. He will make the bottom 10 of my list when before I didn't know if he would make my top 500. Interesting also because I don't see this at all. I am just getting to Murdoch again in my Mid-South watching, and I was high on that stuff before too. But the comparison to Bruno here seems outrageous to me. I can honestly say that Murdoch was never even 10% of the overness that Bruno was. Just struck me as a strange claim to make, especially for a guy who played a heel so often. Don't think Murdoch had that sort of connection with his crowds, as demonstrated by the fact that Amarillo folded not long after he took over and he couldn't draw for toffee without the Funks around. That's in Murdoch's backyard. Ted DiBiase - Hate to pig pile on him, but not seeing what made him special in Mid-South. Consistently the second best guy in his matches. Mid-South: Duggan and Murdoch have been stellar. DiBiase has been underwhelming. I will probably not have enough to watch enough Chavo Classic, but he was awesome also. Sell me on Butch Reed. You cannot be serious! DiBiase completely and totally busts his ass to make Duggan look as good as he does in those matches. As a little exerecise you should count the sheer number of bumps in them. Count the number of times, he takes that bump, bounces back up to go in for a punch (or whatever), and then feeds Duggan again and again and again. You should note his timing. You should note how he is controlling the crowds and building them to the point where the Duggan comeback gets the maximum reaction possible. I am literally shocked and staggered that anyone could watch that stuff and say Ted is the second best worker. It's like ... totally bonkers to me, like you can't tell who the ring general is, and who is the guy being led by the nose. I'm not saying Duggan isn't good in those matches either, but come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 What Destroyer matches are you guys watching? The 1969 Baba match (compare this to the 67 Bruno match with Baba-no doubt which one is the classic), 10/73 and 7/74 Mascaras matches, and the 12/63 Rikidoen matches are the best Japan matches I've watched from those respective years. Footage hurts him a little, but the recent new uploads of the 1977-1978 Mascras matches show his fall off didn't happen as soon as some thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 I'll post my reviews when I get back. Most of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 I am honestly getting a little higher on HBK than I have been in the past. I have been as guilty as anyone of overreacting to the WWE's narrative. I like his high end stuff more than I thought, but I am still bothered by a lot of his habits . Whereas I would have probably expected him at the very back end of the list before, he might sneak into the 40-70 region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 For Nishimura recs Parv, check out his MUGA matches with Fujinami and Hiro Saito from '06, his '04 G-1 match with Kanemoto and his '02 G-1 match with Takayama. I had all those in my top 35 for the Ditch project and they should leave you with a sense of whether you want to go further with him. He's a stock rising guy for me as well. I bought some All-Japan footage from the lost years of '08-'11, just to check out him and Minoru Suzuki. He's an interesting worker and an exciting counterpoint to a lot of the trends that swept Japanese wrestling over the last 15 years. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 parv: i think you misread marty's post a bit there. he was comparing *duggan* to bruno, not murdoch. i actually like his "bruno for the 90s" line on DDP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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