The search for a new mechanic

[Luchaundead]

The issue with it being Cesaro is that the audience clearly wants him higher on the card. I don't see him as a ME tier guy, but definitely an upper card gatekeeper (like Timbo said). For a good mechanic role, I think you need somebody who the fans will react to but isn't at risk of overshadowing higher card talent. Cesaro definitely doesn't fit that since he gets louder reactions, as face or heel, than some of those pushed over him (Sheamus, ADR, Roman in certain cities).

 

In my opinion, the best currently signed talent they have that would be a great midcard mechanic would be Swagger. He's not in danger of getting more over than people he'd be working with, has enough talent to carry himself, and his credentials both amateur and pro make it so that a win over him could still matter for those at lower or equal card positions.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you but, at times Swagger gotten really good reactions from the crowd though not frequently enough that it should be a major concern. A problem though seems to be arising for this type of booking in that any guy that is seen as not being pushed by mgmt seems to start to get a rally from the fans as it only takes a "few smarks" to start a chant and then it becomes the cool thing to do.

[BBscout]

For all the bullshit Jericho is getting, he's the one guy you can trust when it comes down to what Loss mentioned...

 

"You also need someone who is great at carrying guys and making them look like a million bucks -- not just doing the job, but putting them over in a way where they look better for it."

 

Say what you want about the Rumble and AJ match, but Jerichos the only guy outside of Goldust that I could see them trusting in that anchor role last week, aside from Orton or Sheamus who are too high up the card for that gig.

[Loss]

I remember when I used to think WWE didn't think much of Jericho, and I think time has proven that one completely false. I think it's fair to call him one of Vince's all-time favorite guys, considering how he lets him come and go, take the creative reigns on a lot of his own stuff and ad lib when his instincts tell him it's a good idea. He also frequently puts him in positions to hold things together. I don't think he ever quite saw him as a headliner he could build around, but you could argue that he saw him as something that was in some ways more than that. I mention that because I'm not sure how a guy can prove himself to Vince in that particular way in the current system. I'm sure it's possible, but it seems like more of a stretch than it was when Jericho earned Vince's respect. It's probably harder for a mechanic to get Vince's attention now in part because Pat Patterson isn't around every week, and Patterson is the type to pick up on that type of thing more than Vince. Patterson was probably Jericho's biggest advocate.

[C.S.]

Say what you want about the Rumble and AJ match, but Jerichos the only guy outside of Goldust that I could see them trusting in that anchor role last week, aside from Orton or Sheamus who are too high up the card for that gig.

Which is a shame, because both Orton and Sheamus would be perfect for it. Orton has kind of transitioned into the "gatekeeper" role anyway. I don't think the fans would be too upset if those two never won another World Title.

[Matt D]

I remember when I used to think WWE didn't think much of Jericho, and I think time has proven that one completely false. I think it's fair to call him one of Vince's all-time favorite guys, considering how he lets him come and go, take the creative reigns on a lot of his own stuff and ad lib when his instincts tell him it's a good idea. He also frequently puts him in positions to hold things together. I don't think he ever quite saw him as a headliner he could build around, but you could argue that he saw him as something that was in some ways more than that. I mention that because I'm not sure how a guy can prove himself to Vince in that particular way in the current system. I'm sure it's possible, but it seems like more of a stretch than it was when Jericho earned Vince's respect. It's probably harder for a mechanic to get Vince's attention now in part because Pat Patterson isn't around every week, and Patterson is the type to pick up on that type of thing more than Vince. Patterson was probably Jericho's biggest advocate.

 

All probably true, but Kane still had a better 99 than Jericho.

[Loss]

That's wonderful, but why do you care?

[Matt D]

That's wonderful, but why do you care?

 

The idea that when Jericho first got to the WWE they told him to learn from Kane and how upset every person who liked wrestling and had an internet connection (myself included) got at the notion of such a thing. He came quite a far way in Vince's eyes. I still think a lot of that was him leaving. Leaving on your own terms is Vince's one biggest weakness.

[Laz]

 

Say what you want about the Rumble and AJ match, but Jerichos the only guy outside of Goldust that I could see them trusting in that anchor role last week, aside from Orton or Sheamus who are too high up the card for that gig.

Which is a shame, because both Orton and Sheamus would be perfect for it. Orton has kind of transitioned into the "gatekeeper" role anyway. I don't think the fans would be too upset if those two never won another World Title.

At this point, I think most fans wouldn't even bat an eye if Sheamus was released. I know he has his supporters and whatnot, but there's really no arguing that he's been one of the biggest failures of the ME scene that Vince has ever out forward.

 

Orton as a gatekeeper to the upper card is perfect.

[Death From Above]

I know nobody wants to hear this but would it really be a huge shock if this became AJ Styles?

 

Jerry brought up why can't it be Ziggler. My first thought watching AJ take some impressive bumps in the Rumble while getting in bursts of his offense was that Ziggler is in trouble now. His gimmick is basically "guy that has good matches on TV" and AJ is better than him at pretty much everything that matters.

 

I also like Tyler Breeze but his character needs a boost since coming up to the main roster. They've quickly turned him into something of a jobber, pretty much undeserved.

[DMJ]

EDIT - Not positing that Jericho be the mechanic, just some thoughts on him.

 

 

Jericho has often told the story of how he was given "one last shot" to prove himself worthy of being in the WWE in a match against X-Pac because Vince told him something like, "If you can't have a good match with Waltman, you can't have a good match with anyone."

 

While I don't think AJ Styles or Fandango were put against him because they were on any kind of thin ice (ditto for John Cena, whose first real feud and PPV opponent was Jericho), I do think Vince sees Jericho as someone who has proven himself able to have good matches with just about anyone and get the desired reactions out of the crowd.

 

I know Y2J is nobody's favorite here, but I tend to agree that in terms of making fans care about the outcome of the match, making his opponent look good, and keeping himself over, Jericho is as good as you're going to find on the current roster. For another recent example, aside from the Cena debut, can anyone name a main roster Neville match that seemed "bigger" than his one against Jericho in Japan? He was also the only relevant singles opponent Evan Bourne had in his entire run too.

[C.S.]

At this point, I think most fans wouldn't even bat an eye if Sheamus was released. I know he has his supporters and whatnot, but there's really no arguing that he's been one of the biggest failures of the ME scene that Vince has ever out forward.

 

Sadly, you're right. He's stale as fuck because there's nothing left for him to do.

 

He has already won:

 

- Several World Titles ✔

- U.S. Title ✔

- Royal Rumble ✔

- King of the Ring ✔

- Money in the Bank ✔

 

Jesus, he's the personification of why the industry needs major league U.S. alternative other than the WWE. (TNA, ROH, and LU ain't it - sorry!)

[Slasher]

When I posted about Jericho, it isn't so much the man himself and the quality of his work but rather asking why we should dismiss him out of hand because he is in his 40's. He can obviously have a 2 and half star type matches whenever he needs to, and that is probably his typical floor (though he can dip below that when working with untalented workers and himself being completely unmotivated and keeping one eye out at the door). Jericho has been working a part time schedule for almost a decade now, outside a two year stretch when he was working a full time schedule as the serious heel. His body isn't broken down like the average 40 year old pro grappler. And like mentioned, Vince trusts him. So I mean, he is certainly capable of being that guy. The only real problem with Jericho is that he's jobbed so much throughout his career that a program with him means jackshit for the fans. Beating Jericho hasn't really been impressive a feat since like 1996 if not earlier or ever. So all he is good for is herding a guy through a "decent" match per week and then fucking off out of there.

[Childs]

I was thinking about who's been best in this role (talking WWF/E). Benoit?

[Loss]

I would actually put Jericho's WWE run ahead of Benoit's, in terms of accomplishment, performances and volume of good output, even if we stop in 2005 at the end of the first run. I don't know if that's controversial or not. I've watched some 2002-2003 Raw lately and the show was nothing at all to write home about (to be kind), but Jericho at times seemed to be keeping it afloat by himself.

[Jingus]

Cesaro is freakishly strong, strong enough to do things like this:

While you do need a really strong base to pull off that move, half of it is Ziggler's effort in taking it. Cesaro's got no leverage there, he's literally bent in half at the beginning of the suplex motion and his arms are entirely below his own center of gravity. Ziggler is trying his damndest to go up for the move, you can see him post twice with his right hand, once off the turnbuckle and once off Cesaro's body.

 

I am not seriously advocating this but why can't it be Jericho? He has less mileage on himself compared to the other 40+ year olds on the roster because of him taking months off since like 2005 or whatever year it was where Bischoff fired him and he was escorted out. If you meant week to week then yeah nevermind.

Yeah, week to week is the issue. Jericho hasn't worked a full-time schedule in years, he always picks whichever shows he feels like working and then spends the rest of the time touring with his band or doing whatever other side projects he wants to do.

 

The issue with it being Cesaro is that the audience clearly wants him higher on the card.

Ditto with Bryan, if he ever returns. The mechanic needs to be someone that can lose and not deflate the crowd by doing so.

[JerryvonKramer]

One thing that interests me in this thread is Loss's identification of Mr. Perfect in the mechanic role. When do you see him having that? 1993?

 

Really he just seems like he was injured a lot and never really got to the point where he had that role on the roster. In my mind, I always saw Perfect as being at IC level, whereas DiBiase was at "world title" level, even in 89-91. I'm not sure where Jericho is right now or where he has been recently. I always think of him as a guy who can easily slot into a main event if required a la Dibiase.

 

I am just interested in where on the card this guy goes? There's like the Mick Foley -- not the top guy, but someone who is perrenially in the main event mix. But then there's like your old-fashioned "carpenter" lower down on the card. Someone like Tito or Greg post-prime.

[Loss]

I threw his name out, but yeah, he's not a good fit.

[Al]

I was thinking about who's been best in this role (talking WWF/E). Benoit?

Without making an exhaustive search, William Regal is the first that comes to mind.

[NotJayTabb]

Don't think he's been mentioned yet, but Tyson Kidd seems pretty much set in a mechanic role if he ever comes back. A lot of guys have been given their debuts against Kidd over the years, and I'm pretty sure he was one of the first guys they put against Sin Cara when they were trying to adjust him to the US style. He's always been moderately popular, but never a guy likely to threaten the main event, but is able to get a decent match out an opponent.

[shoe]

Another key to the mechanic role is that people can buy him as a main eventer at times. So when people they're trying to elevate beat him it means something.

[Goodear]

Neville is your face mechanic answer. Over enough to a degree that if a heel works him over, it will matter to the crowd. He would also be able to upset anyone easy since his finisher works regardless of size and is over. Neville also has enough spots in the tank that he will be able to get reasonable near falls on guys above him in the pecking order like the dead lift German suplex and a nice sit out powerbomb. He's a guy that could reasonably job to or go over the whole roster right now.

[Grimmas]

NXT is filled with guys who could take that role.

 

Sheamus is perfect for it though

[Timbo Slice]

Going back to Loss' point about Jericho as a headliner, it's now pretty obvious that Jericho's Undisputed title run was fodder for HHH more than anything else. They didn't want HHH going over Rocky or Austin on a big show when he came back, and he was definitely just a fill-in at that point.

 

The bigger overall issue is that Vince plain doesn't trust a lot of these new guys coming up. They're just guys to feed Cena or HHH or what have you. The last few years have shown that Vince doesn't really care too much about the rest of the card so much that the guy on top is doing what he wants him to do. When that goes wrong, that's when issues like this start to really show up.

 

With that in mind, I guarantee the Styles/Jericho feud is to pass the baton.

[Laz]

I'm actually fine with AJ getting that Jericho role. He's never been a great talker, cutting maybe a handful of promos in his career I would call legitimately good, and he's versatile enough that he can bump and feed to bigger guys while playing the strong arm on those equal or lesser in size.

 

The real test will come with how he's treated in that role. If he's seen as an Arn Anderson, the guy that can GO but isn't on top (but always a threat to those who are), then I think even the jaded fans will be happy. If he's feeding the Authority's gerbils, though, then people are going to be fed up. Given how the company handles literally every talent on their roster? Ughhhhh...

[Loss]

Are there examples of Styles having great matches with superheavyweights? I'm just curious. I'd define a superheavyweight as anyone Brock's size or bigger.