Reactions to the Honorable Mention List Part One

[Parties]

Smarkschoice comparisons this round:
91) Toshiyo Yamada - 699 Points (PWO: #314) - lowest SC Top 100 worker on PWO list
160) Lizmark – 208 Points (PWO: #317)
197) Brad Armstrong – 123 Points (PWO: 315)
243) John Bradshaw Layfield – 71 Points (PWO: #316)
342) Carl Malenko – 33 Points (PWO: #328)
429) Mr. Wrestling II – 4 Points (PWO: #323)
431) Yoshihisa Yamamoto – 4 Points (PWO: #320)

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a Toshiyo Yamada match. Sorry. Her and Lizmark continue to show the decline of certain lucha and Joshi workers, but Yamada is clearly the biggest difference we’ve seen yet for workers who made both lists. Wrestling II going up a hundred spots is an interesting turn that I wouldn't have guessed.

• I had Espanto, Jr. at #76. Incredible Santo opponent who I’ve never seen have anything less than an awesome performance: ranking was a "footage seen" issue. Plus his career was cut kind of short as I think we only have about 10 (12 max) years of him w/ limited appearances in that time.
• I had Hoshino at #79. One of the all-time fiery juniors with unbelievable charisma. I share Ackermann’s assessment that if you didn’t vote for him, you suck.
• I had Mascarita Sagrada at #87. One of only two minis on my list, and one who could have been higher if I was more of a "year-over-year consistency" voter.
• Austin Idol being unranked in ’06 is ridiculous, as is JBL being higher than Carl Malenko. For this above all his other faults, I say to hell with JBL.
• Billy Graham and Tenta being higher than most of the people who’ve come before them is disgraceful, but at least they’ve now placed and can go no higher. 11 ballots for Tenta is a case for forced sterilization.
• Katsumi Usuda was on my list at one time and is a great choice for anyone. Would make my top 125. Fantastic in the ’08 BattlARTS trios that is one of the best matches of all time, and has dozens of great taped performances beyond that.
• I will say straight up that anyone who seriously watched 4,000 matches across a range of styles for the sake of this project gets to vote however the hell they want, including for Warrior. Kudos, Marvin.

[victory]

I re-iterate, SUPERSTAR GRAHAM??!!!!

 

Did people not see that this was actually Greatest Wrestler Ever and not worst wrestler ever?

 

EIGHT votes? There is no excusing this.

Maybe they thought it was for Greatest Bleeder 😀. That I though he did pretty good at.

[goc]

Don't really get the Tenta hate there as Graham is the far more offensive worker.

 

Mr. Wrestling II benefited from the Mid-South set and the new footage from NWAClassics

[victory]

Venturas best matches were better

At least Graham could bump somewhat in the 70's. Ventura has admitted he didn't want to bump and it showed. They both aren't good, but I would take 70's Graham over any version of Ventura.

[Death From Above]

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a Toshiyo Yamada match. Sorry.

 

 

She's kind of a weird case in that she's obviously a great talent, but so many of her most famous matches are against far more famous workers that were her contemporaries. For whatever reason she was never quite as big a star as a lot of those, despite working several pretty key main events in her era. But I don't think anyone really questions that she was a very good worker.

[ChuckScumm]

Glad to see Survival Tobita make it as high as he did.

[Parties]

Yamada and Mariko Yoshida were the last names (alphabetically, obvs) on a list of about 8 previously unseen nominees who I'd planned to watch before running out of time, almost all of them Japanese women. Alas, I am part of the Joshi problem, but resolve to one day become part of the Joshi solution.

[tim]

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a Toshiyo Yamada match.

The Dreamrush 92 tag?

[joeg]

I didn't vote for Graham or Tenta but I could see a defensee for both. Graham was top heel for a decade everywhere he went. He was a great promo. He drew some serious money every where he went. I'd put him in the top 25 promos. I don't think I've ever seen a good Graham match and he certainly wouldn't do well in the BIGLAV. Tenta was one of the better big men in the late 80s/ early 90s.

[Mrzfn]

Ok, I hid under the anonymous option so I could wait and see if anyone called for my head when that Quackenbush vote dropped, and nobody has exactly so I'll try to lay out my thought process a bit. Obviously first and foremost it's a matter of tastes and I 100% admit my tastes are eccentric, especially compared to the general consesus of this board, but I do want to try to explain it succinctly so I don't look like a complete nutjob (or a secret Quackenbush account). I have no idea if there's an option for this but if there is, I wouldn't mind my votes being switched to public at this point.

 

Putting aside Quack's level of influence, which I do agree with Dylan is larger than most people might realize, I do actually view his in ring work as being much higher quality than others seem to. I don't see a "fake" or "phony" style when I watch him, but rather a highly experimental hybrid that borrows elements from a lot of different styles historically, styles that many fans have forgotten about or were never aware of in the first place. I find it all the more impressive that he advocated this style at a time when most in his sphere were imitating puro, and his work to integrate more lucha and European elements into his matches make them stand out all the more. I think he's legimiately great on the mat, creative and fluid, I guess I can see the argument that he was overly ambitious at times but to me I guess that's part of the charm and fits pretty well with the onscreen character he was trying to potray, which among others things was a guy who loved what he did and sometimes veered into trying to show off. I think he works great as a pure babyface, I don't think he has a lot of heel work in his career but that's not necessarily a knock in my book. I like that he approaches matches differently based on his opponent and the story of the match. An exhibition against a mat guy will look tremendously different than a grudge match against a power guy, a match against a guy from Europe looks very different than a match against a guy from Mexico, and so on and so forth. He has a formula of sorts but it's very fluid and he doesn't rely too much on repetitive spots to pop the crowd but tries to tailor what he does based on who is wrestling in front of, whether it's 25 people in some random PA town or 2500 out in Germany or somewhere. He's very good at working storyline based stuff and integrating small details to enhance the match, whether it's a callback spot, reacting to a certain guy a certain way, building tension around a specific sequence, or any number of other things. At the same time I don't think he's limited to only being good inside of a storyline, and can pull out a lot of great stuff when he's just doing a guest spot in a random indie. I think he's in contention for being the best hot tag of all time, and I'll stand by that. I think he's a smart and versatile worker, he can work a grudge match, an exhibition match, a comedy match, pretty much anything that might be on the card (and sometimes more than one thing on the same card). He had a fantastic prime run between 2004 and 2011-12 or so where he was consistently great, and I've seen him do great things in flashes as far back as '98. He was smart enough to hang up the boots for the most part before doing a lot of damage to himself, but continues building to his case working mostly comedy matches as El Hijo del Ice Cream, but even there I think he shines as his act is incredibly over and he can still put a twinge of seriously effective stuff into his work. The 2015 subtle character arc which basically built a full year to a kickout spot in the season finale was really well done, not just a booking standpoint but the way he got the story over using mostly body language alone was very impressive to me. His prime maches consistently impress me on the level of great, not just good but great, and if this was a favorite list instead of a best he might rank even higher. God knows I can understand why he's not everyone's cup of tea, but when I look at what makes a "great" wrestler Quack ticks nearly every box for me. I'd probably still be the high vote on him if we did this again in 2026 but I have hopes that his stock will rise with time. Even if it doesn't though, I'm glad I could bump the guy's place on the list because I think he's more than earned it.

 

I vaguely remember saying something about being succint. Oops! I'll try not to drown this thread desparately trying to justify some of my oddball votes (I've been the high vote on several others including Heenan, whom I think there is plenty enough tape on to judge as a potential best of all time talent). Grimmas, this whole thing has been amazing and I want to thank you for putting it on, I've seen so many people because of it that I had no idea about a few years ago, guys like Bockwinkel, Negro Casas, Robinson, Smothers, Breaks, Dandy, Satanico, Rose, and Grey, all of whom also made my list after a dive into their stuff.

[Timbo Slice]

The only one to drop for me so far is Heenan, and he was above Davey, which makes the entire project worth it for me.

[Matt D]

Way to come forward, man.

[Ricky Jackson]

 

Wait.. Graham had good highs in the 70s. What do the later lows even matter? Post prime is irrelevant;)

What were his 70s highs? Laying an egg against Harley?

 

I'll give him this: he could sell better than he's given credit for. And was demonstrably a better wrestler than Jesse Ventura.

I didn't vote for Graham, but his WWWF stuff in 76-78 from MSG and Philly is mostly good, never bad, and often really memorable. Vs. Bruno, Dusty, Putski, Mascaras (two otherwise crappy wrestlers), Backlund, are almost as good as it gets in NYC during this time. I probably should've found a spot for Superstar

[Woof]

Hell of a justification, Mrzfn. I'm not sure I've seen any Quack in my life (if I have I've forgotten the context), but your defense makes me want to seek some out. Thanks.

[Beast]

 

 

Wait.. Graham had good highs in the 70s. What do the later lows even matter? Post prime is irrelevant;)

What were his 70s highs? Laying an egg against Harley?

 

I'll give him this: he could sell better than he's given credit for. And was demonstrably a better wrestler than Jesse Ventura.

I didn't vote for Graham, but his WWWF stuff in 76-78 from MSG and Philly is mostly good, never bad, and often really memorable. Vs. Bruno, Dusty, Putski, Mascaras (two otherwise crappy wrestlers), Backlund, are almost as good as it gets in NYC during this time. I probably should've found a spot for Superstar

 

 

Love the clash of the titans here.

[JRGoldman]

Mrzfn, may I ask if you were also that high vote for Eddie Kingston?

 

Also, I love your justification for Quack. I hope that post inspires others to defend their positions despite voting anonymously.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

 

Wait.. Graham had good highs in the 70s. What do the later lows even matter? Post prime is irrelevant;)

 

What were his 70s highs? Laying an egg against Harley?

I'll give him this: he could sell better than he's given credit for. And was demonstrably a better wrestler than Jesse Ventura.

I didn't vote for Graham, but his WWWF stuff in 76-78 from MSG and Philly is mostly good, never bad, and often really memorable. Vs. Bruno, Dusty, Putski, Mascaras (two otherwise crappy wrestlers), Backlund, are almost as good as it gets in NYC during this time. I probably should've found a spot for Superstar

Love the clash of the titans here.

When Kelly says "mostly good" what he's really saying is "actually watchable and not shockingly awful like most of the other matches from WWWF in that time-frame".

 

For anyone to rank based on a two-year run, they'd have to be on Rick Rude in 92 sort of level. Graham was not even within the same universe as that.

 

The eight Graham voters should be FORCED to watch him bear hug people for 310 hours.

[Champagne]

I re-iterate, SUPERSTAR GRAHAM??!!!!

 

Did people not see that this was actually Greatest Wrestler Ever and not worst wrestler ever?

 

EIGHT votes? There is no excusing this.

I can see an argument for Graham based solely on his being one of the most influential acts in the history of wrestling.

[Ricky Jackson]

I dunno, at least Graham's universe was full of headlining 20,000 + sellouts for a super hot territory and not part of cards that couldn't draw flies to shit, if you want to be technical about it.

 

(You know I love ya Parv, don't sick the feds on me for subversive statements)

[JerryvonKramer]

Did you rank Rude?

[Cap]

It warms my heart to see Mori. I always really liked him. When I rewatched some of the ROH stuff a few months ago it really didn't hold up as well as I had hoped, but he was still tons of fun. His monster-work between moves was awesome.

[Ricky Jackson]

Did you rank Rude?

I did. But it's already been established my list was written on the back of a napkin during a work break a few weeks ago. Lol

[Laney]

Great defense of Quack there Mrzfn. My only gripe is you giving Quack credit for the Los Ice Creams work. I am fairly certain that several different people have played those roles and they are exchanged quite frequently.

[Mrzfn]

Mrzfn, may I ask if you were also that high vote for Eddie Kingston?

 

Also, I love your justification for Quack. I hope that post inspires others to defend their positions despite voting anonymously.

 

Yeah, I went high on Kingston as well. I guess it's redudant to out myself as a CHIKARA fan at this point but, without doing another incredibly long post (maybe later), I do want to say that his early work in CZW and his current stuff in places like AIW added a lot to his case. Kingston brings this unique battered warrior vibe to his matches that I really love, and he does a dozen little things to use that in his matches in a way that enhances them. At the end of the day you could just handwaive him as a Kawada cosplayer I guess but I think he's the best possible version of that, and he injects a tremendous amount of his own stuff too so to consider him only an imitator would be wrong I think. I didn't count promo work specifically but I do think he's one of the best indy-centric guys ever in that category, and the fact that he can and does bleed that character work into his matches counts a lot for me. I love his intensity, his strikes and throws, I think his selling and psych is world class especially when it comes to putting over limb work or something. He and Gulak worked a match last year that was based entirely around Gulak basically trying to paralyze his backfist arm, and Kingston being forced to either fight through the pain or find a different way to win. He's on his 14th year and I've been seeing pretty consistently great stuff from him since 04. I feel like he's criticized a lot for his look but honestly I could give a damn because he's just meant to be a hard hitting son of a bitch most of the time and he can do that with a bit of a gut, plus it makes it all the more impressive when he digs deep and does something really athletic. His run on top of CHIKARA is really one of my favorite ace runs ever, so in the end I felt justified about putting him really high up the list. If I had had mroe time to watch stuff he might have dropped a bit but I can't imagine him not making my top 50 at a minimum, probably top 25.

[Mrzfn]

Great defense of Quack there Mrzfn. My only gripe is you giving Quack credit for the Los Ice Creams work. I am fairly certain that several different people have played those roles and they are exchanged quite frequently.

 

I think it's pretty consistently Quack and Hallowicked, though I'm sure there have been exceptions over the years. Quack's is a little easier to spot because he actually talks and if you've listened to as much Quack as I have, you can pretty well tell that it's him. It's a footnote to his case anyway but fair point, CHIKARA mask stuff can definitely get a little hairy for some characters.