Reactions to the Honorable Mention List Part One

[goc]

Now that Mrzfn has come forward to defend his Quack vote, I demand satisfaction from the 5 people who had the audacity for vote for Dolph Ziggler. I need to know how you sleep at night knowing you counted him as one of the 100 greatest wrestlers ever and I want to know why you did not nominate Billy Gunn because I can not find any conceivable reason to vote for Dolph Ziggler and not vote for the man he has been cosplaying for all these years.

[Matt D]

No way could Dolph do as well in this match as Gunn did:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziz4zVfcgz4

[jaedmc]

I didn't vote for him but Dolph Ziggler has had some flashes of brilliance. His run several years ago when there was still had brand split had some fantastic weekly matches. Not as good as Matt Hardy's run on Smackdown or Christian's but it was in the ball park. He's had some good main events since then, but he's never really grown the way I'd hoped he would to round it all out. So despite loving him I didn't vote for him, but I guess I can see how people who look back at those peaks can use that to justify a slot in their 100.

[Bierschwale]

"He was great at Kent State."

 

Amateur style grappling kinda-seems-to-give-a-shit Ziggler IS a good wrestler. I might say very good. He's just too much of a dick to stay with it.

[Beast]

Him vs Rey at Summerslam 2009 blew me away at the time. I didn't realize Dolph had anything like that in him and then he proceeded to regularly pull out great matches over the next 4-5 years.

 

He's insufferable now, but that's a combo of stop/start booking and moving from being a Mr. Perfect cosplayer to a Shawn Michaels one.

[Death From Above]

It's funny, when I started watching WWE again ZIggler was literally the frist guy that jumped out at me.

 

Then he had the exact same "good tv match" next week.

 

Then the week after that.

 

Then the week after.

 

Sell the shoulder.

 

The shoulder.

 

Shoulder.

 

Should.

 

Should stop.

[El-P]

 

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a Toshiyo Yamada match. Sorry.

 

 

She's kind of a weird case in that she's obviously a great talent, but so many of her most famous matches are against far more famous workers that were her contemporaries. For whatever reason she was never quite as big a star as a lot of those, despite working several pretty key main events in her era. But I don't think anyone really questions that she was a very good worker.

 

When I did my Zenjo 92/93 watch (years ago now, but still), Yamada is someone that really lost stock. Previously I saw her as a great worker because of involvment in great matches. Simplistic approach. Watching the whole year of TV, she was just not as great as she seemed before. She was never the best worker in her best matches. Very good ? Yes. But not in the same league as her most famous contemporaries and a bunch of others from JWP or even Zenjo's undercard. Plus her post prime in GAEA is really uninteresting, but GAEA would do that to you for a lot of veterans. If I did some serious joshi watching this time around, I'm not sure I would have ranked her anymore, which I still did last time I believe.

 

I like Tenta, but yeah, him getting 11 ballot is really a symptom of workrate relativism at this point. Superstar Graham and Warrior, well, this is just personality voting now.

[goc]

It's funny, when I started watching WWE again ZIggler was literally the frist guy that jumped out at me.

 

Then he had the exact same "good tv match" next week.

 

Then the week after that.

 

Then the week after.

 

Sell the shoulder.

 

The shoulder.

 

Shoulder.

 

Should.

 

Should stop.

He has such a promising stand-up career ahead of him too if he would just quit wrestling and devote himself to it.

[Jimmy Redman]

 

I'm sort of curious (not that I think we are anywhere close) as to when the first person who was ranked in 06 will come up.

 

My guess is that it's a woman.

 

 

Boom.

 

On Dolph, he was a really good and consistent TV worker from late 2009 to maybe the end of 2013 or early 2014. The Rey match was his coming out party, and he was watchable until he ran out his welcome as a babyface after however long.

 

He also has many really good and great matches along the way as well, like the Alberto double turn match, the aforementioned Rey match, the many Orton matches in 2011 and the many Sheamus matches in 2012. The Cena matches. Edge at the Rumble. The Bryan matches. And so on.

 

He gets shit on now because at the moment and for the last couple years he's been kind of horrid. But before that...there's meat there if you're into that kind of Smackdown worker.

 

Having said that, I didn't vote for him. Actually the only people of mine to come up so far are Kofi, Trish, Roberts and Pat Roach. And by the way, me being the high vote for Pat Roach tells me that all of you motherfuckers need to start watching Pat Roach.

 

Perrito was one of my very last cuts, so I'm glad he got onto some ballots.

[MasterJonBurr]

The Del Rio hate has gone too far. Also, I don't think Toshiyo Yamada deserved the dramatic slide she's experienced. She was in my top 200.

 

On Jesse/Superstar: I feel anyone who claims Jesse has better matches MUST be referring to tags, as at least Supes would bump from time to time and had a few feuds that didn't make me sick. That said, I would never vote for them, and I'm a guy who voted for Hogan. Methinks mic work or commentary work got this psychedelic duo some votes.

 

Final thought: Jimmy Rave was my trainer when I went to wrasslin school. And before anyone says a word, I'm not playing the "I wrestled" card. I've also lived in the GA/TN area for most of my life. I LOVE Jimmy Rave. But even his recent Renaissance and feel good story of him beating drug abuse wasn't enough to get him near my list. Huge fan of the Hales clan on Twitter, the board, and podcasts, but their influence has gone too far! But, hey, anything that is pro southern indies won't wrinkle my nose too much.

 

Yours,

JHHBjr

[Jimmy Redman]

Yeah I like Yamada and she almost made my list too. Harsh drop off, but it speaks to how joshi itself has fallen off compared to the last ballot.

[Dylan Waco]

The Del Rio hate has gone too far. Also, I don't think Toshiyo Yamada deserved the dramatic slide she's experienced. She was in my top 200.

 

On Jesse/Superstar: I feel anyone who claims Jesse has better matches MUST be referring to tags, as at least Supes would bump from time to time and had a few feuds that didn't make me sick. That said, I would never vote for them, and I'm a guy who voted for Hogan. Methinks mic work or commentary work got this psychedelic duo some votes.

 

Final thought: Jimmy Rave was my trainer when I went to wrasslin school. And before anyone says a word, I'm not playing the "I wrestled" card. I've also lived in the GA/TN area for most of my life. I LOVE Jimmy Rave. But even his recent Renaissance and feel good story of him beating drug abuse wasn't enough to get him near my list. Huge fan of the Hales clan on Twitter, the board, and podcasts, but their influence has gone too far! But, hey, anything that is pro southern indies won't wrinkle my nose too much.

 

Yours,

JHHBjr

 

 

Jesse's best matches are indeed East-West tags.

 

On Rave, I'm one of the few people who religiously followed Rampage when he worked/booked for them and I rewatched tons of Wildside and ROH for this project. If he hadn't held up tremendously in those settings he wouldn't have made my list even with him being awesome the last couple of years and him being an incredibly great live wrestler. As it was he made my list pretty easily.

[elliott]

I'll defend Heenan. I didn't vote for him but there is more than enough of him on tape to make a judgment. There are WOS and Lucha candidates who have been touted on barely more than a handful of matches, and Heenan has stuff like the Gagne and Zumhofe match, the Lord Al Hayes match which is legit great, and his performance in the 83 Six-man from AWA that some thought was a top ten match in promotion history. He's an all time great heel when it comes to bumping and psych based on what is out there. If someone wants to argue against his inclusion outside of a bottom ten or so I'd probably say "yea, ok" but he's hardly an absurd pick.

 

I agree with all of this. I also think it is fair to consider managers for their work at ringside during actual matches. Folks like Cornette, Jimmy Hart, Heenan, etc added a TON to matches and I'm wondering if anyone considered them for that aspect of their work in addition to their participation in actual matches?

[MasterJonBurr]

Rave's ROH stuff is top notch, and the wild side shit is amazing for his age. I think the biggest knock on him is that he lacks character for most of his career. Even his ROH toilet paper roll heat is sorta based on the notion that he's a boring act, a la Lance Storm in wwe. The second biggest knock would be an extended period of his career when he could turn in some subpar performances, for one reason or another. He worked Rome, GA regularly in the early 2000s and was sometimes one of the worst matches on the card, and was never nearly as good as I had seen him elsewhere. Again, I am a mark for Rave, but it's so hard to get those US Indy guys in. I only ranked 5, counting Daniel Bryan. Fwiw, I rank Rave highee than Punk. Aaaaaaaand I'll show myself out.

 

Yours,

JHHBjr

[Mrzfn]

 

I'll defend Heenan. I didn't vote for him but there is more than enough of him on tape to make a judgment. There are WOS and Lucha candidates who have been touted on barely more than a handful of matches, and Heenan has stuff like the Gagne and Zumhofe match, the Lord Al Hayes match which is legit great, and his performance in the 83 Six-man from AWA that some thought was a top ten match in promotion history. He's an all time great heel when it comes to bumping and psych based on what is out there. If someone wants to argue against his inclusion outside of a bottom ten or so I'd probably say "yea, ok" but he's hardly an absurd pick.

 

I agree with all of this. I also think it is fair to consider managers for their work at ringside during actual matches. Folks like Cornette, Jimmy Hart, Heenan, etc added a TON to matches and I'm wondering if anyone considered them for that aspect of their work in addition to their participation in actual matches?

 

 

I didn't personally but I think you could make that case, especially for ultra-physical guys like Heenan.

 

I think something that goes overlooked with Heenan is that more than just being a super bump freak, he's one of the all time masters of knowing *when* to bump in order to get maximum effect, not to mention that he has tremendous psychology and consistency whenever he's involved in a match of any decent lengths. His ability to control the crowd is just otherworldly. Somone posted a six man tag from the 70s in the RIP Lanza thread which really shows a lot of this stuff, if I recall. All that and on top of it, on the rare occasion he does do some offense, he is actually great at it, when he gets to hit it his punch especially is really fantastic. I wouldn't say he has any all time competitive matches because that wasn't what he was shooting for, but he really does check pretty much all the other boxes if you take the time to seek out his matches.

[Jetlag]

Katsumi Usuda - 35th best wrestler ever. I want to hug the person who did that. I think I'd have him in my Top 5 japanese juniors.

 

Yamada is depressing. Really talented girl, but deserved a better career. Great picture though.

 

Lizmark not cracking the Top 300 is annoying too, altough I've conditioned myself to see the rankings so far as a random assembly of names and not as a legitimate ranking. I know I cut out one really popular name from my list cause Lizmark was better. Great masked technico.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Morishima was awesome on All American Girl.

Well that's mean. Fat jokes about Margaret Cho? Come on, dude.

[elliott]

The lucha graveyard continues. Must... fight... the... urge... to... have... backlash...against...token... picks.

 

Focus on this: of the 67 luchadores to get nominated, all but 6 got votes. Numbers may not be totally exact. But that's something.

 

I have 2 in my top 4.

[DR Ackermann]

 

Morishima was awesome on All American Girl.

Well that's mean. Fat jokes about Margaret Cho? Come on, dude.

No one called anyone fat.

[DR Ackermann]

 

 

The lucha graveyard continues. Must... fight... the... urge... to... have... backlash...against...token... picks.

Focus on this: of the 67 luchadores to get nominated, all but 6 got votes. Numbers may not be totally exact. But that's something.

 

I have 2 in my top 4.

In retrospect I shoulda/coulda/woulda included a few more luchadores and ranked a few higher. But I still have 6 in my top 25.

[Microstatistics]

Focus on this: of the 67 luchadores to get nominated, all but 6 got votes. Numbers may not be totally exact. But that's something.

 

I have 2 in my top 4.

 

 

Same.

[Jingus]

 

 

Morishima was awesome on All American Girl.

Well that's mean. Fat jokes about Margaret Cho? Come on, dude.

 

No one called anyone fat.

 

Margaret Cho looks like Gail Kim compared to the pallid doughy androgynous marshmallow-bodied horror that is Morishima.

 

I've also lived in the GA/TN area for most of my life.

JHHBjr

Hey, I don't think I know you, but I do know your name: Chris Coey once threatened to have you beat me up. (Which of course says way more about Coey than it does about either of us.) What parts of GA/TN did you work in, and under what name? Just wondering if we ever might've crossed paths.

 

I also think it is fair to consider managers for their work at ringside during actual matches. Folks like Cornette, Jimmy Hart, Heenan, etc added a TON to matches and I'm wondering if anyone considered them for that aspect of their work in addition to their participation in actual matches?

I don't think so. It's just not the same as being in the ring. The VAST majority of the burden of performance stays on the wrestlers, not whoever's accompanying them. It's much easier for a good wrestler to get a lackluster manager over than it is the other way around. Which I guess could technically kinda improve the case for someone like Heenan that he actually was able to get almost any random jabroni over just by managing them, but he's the rare exception. More typically, the crowd is like "oh, this is the guy that Jimmy Hart is managing this week? Fine, we'll boo him until Lawler wins, and then quickly forget this loser ever existed." When I was a manager, I certainly never felt like I was on the same level of performance as any of my wrestlers, even on those rare occasions where I was saddled with some non-working stiff who was probably a worse rassler than me. It's just such a different world being on the outside as opposed to being in the match, with such lower expectations and so much less pressure on so many different things.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I voted for Hoshino. I still probably suck though.

 

I love the defenses for Quack and the Warrior, and I'm glad that we have a few 'oddball' ballots like that. It makes for a more fun countdown at any rate.

 

Bubba Ray really sucks. I mean, he can be good, but he comes off as so phony most of the time to me. He's a guy who probably is tough as shit, playing a character who is tough as shit in a way that is totally unconvincing to me.

 

I think I had Brad Armstrong and possibly Perrito towards the bottom of my list. I made last minute changes to my bottom end as I was submitting it, and didn't make a note of what I changed.

[JerryvonKramer]

I am genuinely heartened to see so far that the majority rule is proving to be such a firm corrective to "fun". Some of my faith in the community has been restored. Silent majority FTW. The final results list is a harsh and unloving mistress: she will brook no quirkiness.

[Tim Cooke]

Greco, Yamamoto, and Espanto were all my guys and I'm sorry to see them fall. It's awesome to see that Cooke had Espanto so high. I'm pretty excited to see his list when this is all done.

 

The top 20 in my list is pretty conventional. Fit the next 30 or so in confidently, but 51-100 could be reordered every day and I probably still wouldn't be happy with it.

 

Someone like El Bracero is a right place, right time guy. He has had 3-4 Houston matches released by NWAClassics and was excellent in all of them. If this poll was two years from now, he probably wouldn't have even come to mind.

 

Meanwhile, I regret not having a guy like Lizmark, who I've watched a lot more of from his 1992-1993 AAA run and should have made it regardless.

 

Kopylov as second best foreigner in RINGS wasn't enough to crack the top 100 (he was sitting at 115). Yoshihisa Yamamoto, despite being in an arguable #1 Shoot Style match contender in 1999, didn't have the amount of matches that his counterparts in Han, Tamura, and Kohsaka did. Would have loved to put both in, but in March 2016, just didn't have room.