Reactions to the Honorable Mention List, Part 3

[TravJ1979]

We should start a campaign to have sheet writers and wrestlers with an online presence (podcasts, etc.) each make a Top 25 list just to see how much it differs from ours.

 

At the very least send them all our list and listen to the complaints.

[Childs]

 

Just jumping back in here. I knew Takada would plummet but I'm surprised he fell that far. Thought he might still sneak in the tail end of the top 100. I was also surprised how far Kikuchi dropped, though he didn't get discussed too much in the threads.

 

Marty Jones was my first top 50 guy to go, but it's hard to be too disappointed considering he was No. 282 in 2006. I'm now rooting hard for Grey to hold on until the top 100.

 

It does seem the sheer volume of votes has been hard on lucha, Europe and Joshi. All but the consensus elites from those spheres are dropping.

 

The problem is that the voters most likely to give these styles/regions attention are the ones giving everything attention. In those cases, there's only so much room when you're considering everything. Those styles needed more niche voters to take part to represent them better, along the lines of the number of ballots that have 50 or more Japanese males or modern U.S. wrestlers on them.

 

 

That's exactly right. I ranked a bunch of those guys but in the lower half, which only does so much good.

[Matt D]

We should start a campaign to have sheet writers and wrestlers with an online presence (podcasts, etc.) each make a Top 25 list just to see how much it differs from ours.

 

At the very least send them all our list and listen to the complaints.

As long as you use the words "Footage-Based," go and have a ball.

[JRGoldman]

I know someone recently asked Vader this question on twitter and he responded with 1) Misawa 2) Randy Orton, so ask at your own peril.

[GSR]

I have Grey at like 10 or 11 I think. He was my highest rated WOS guy and then Marty was in my top 25.

Grey would've easily been top 20 for me and the highest ranked WOS guy. I thought that no-one would surpass Breaks but the more I saw of Grey the more his stock rose. Hope those who checked out WOS purely for Breaks had a look at Grey too.

[TheU_2001]

There goes Okada, Brody, Luger, Takada, and Roberts from my ballot too.

[Cap]

Seriously want Oz to stomp on the hands of everyone voter that shunned her.

I second this....

[Loss]

Theory: Takada dropping is partially because of people growing sour on him but more because of newer fans not hearing as much about him and not checking him out for themselves because he wasn't on their radar. Takada I still think was very good and I strongly considered him and probably should have ranked him. But it shows a stark contrast between now and the days when guys like me came online -- Takada praise was everywhere in the late 90s and early 2000s, and it's much harder to find now. I think it's less that everyone thinks Takada sucks (although some clearly do) and more that he's almost fallen off the critical radar. I don't know which is worse. He might as well be Hiromitsu Kanehara.

[Moonsault Marvin]

My ballot has been a bloodbath today.

 

I was the high vote on Thesz. I love to watch Thesz because wrestling history seems to flow through him. He looks like he could be a neighbor on "Leave It To Beaver," but he transforms himself in the ring into a dastardly heel that's willing to bend the rules to his advantage, presaging the NWA Championship heels to come. He uses his backdrop suplex, which becomes the cornerstone of the All Japan style. Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, etc. just wouldn't be the same without Thesz's existence. Bret Hart's signature counter that he uses to beat Piper and Austin is being used by Thesz in the early 1950's.

 

On the mat, Thesz always stays active. He cranks the holds and will move to a variation to keep things interesting. When he is trapped in a hold, Thesz is always moving the feet, which gives the needed impression of trying to escape.

 

Others that I lost today:

12. Buddy Rogers

29. Bruno Sammartino

50. Antonio Inoki

72. Perro Aguayo

86. Marty Jones

91. Jake Roberts

99. Sabu

[Childs]

My ballot has been a bloodbath today.

 

I was the high vote on Thesz. I love to watch Thesz because wrestling history seems to flow through him. He looks like he could be a neighbor on "Leave It To Beaver," but he transforms himself in the ring into a dastardly heel that's willing to bend the rules to his advantage, presaging the NWA Championship heels to come. He uses his backdrop suplex, which becomes the cornerstone of the All Japan style. Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, etc. just wouldn't be the same without Thesz's existence. Bret Hart's signature counter that he uses to beat Piper and Austin is being used by Thesz in the early 1950's.

 

On the mat, Thesz always stays active. He cranks the holds and will move to a variation to keep things interesting. When he is trapped in a hold, Thesz is always moving the feet, which gives the needed impression of trying to escape.

 

Others that I lost today:

12. Buddy Rogers

29. Bruno Sammartino

50. Antonio Inoki

72. Perro Aguayo

86. Marty Jones

91. Jake Roberts

99. Sabu

 

Marvin, I'm interested in your thoughts on how you judged the classic guys. Would you say you based it mostly on how they look in the footage you have seen? Or did you also give them significant credit for their importance?

[El-P]

Theory: Takada dropping is partially because of people growing sour on him but more because of newer fans not hearing as much about him and not checking him out for themselves because he wasn't on their radar. Takada I still think was very good and I strongly considered him and probably should have ranked him. But it shows a stark contrast between now and the days when guys like me came online -- Takada praise was everywhere in the late 90s and early 2000s, and it's much harder to find now. I think it's less that everyone thinks Takada sucks (although some clearly do) and more that he's almost fallen off the critical radar. I don't know which is worse. He might as well be Hiromitsu Kanehara.

 

Maybe you're right. I still think the backlash sucks and is ridiculous. And it's not like Takada not being great at pure shoot-style is anything new. I was having discussion with Mike (Lorefice) more than fifteen years ago about this. If I thought Takada kinda sucked when I went through UWF and UWF-I (past 2010 btw, so I absolutely did not go on memories for Takada, he was basically the last guy I checked *for the GWE* as late as fall of 2015), I would have no problem to admit it. Tons of guys' stocks have dropped since 2006 in my book. More on those later.

[Moonsault Marvin]

It's more that I love the '50s style of wrestling. I like watching the matwork. Compared to today's wrestling with no sense of space in the match, the older wrestling gives the selling more meaning to me.

[Childs]

 

Theory: Takada dropping is partially because of people growing sour on him but more because of newer fans not hearing as much about him and not checking him out for themselves because he wasn't on their radar. Takada I still think was very good and I strongly considered him and probably should have ranked him. But it shows a stark contrast between now and the days when guys like me came online -- Takada praise was everywhere in the late 90s and early 2000s, and it's much harder to find now. I think it's less that everyone thinks Takada sucks (although some clearly do) and more that he's almost fallen off the critical radar. I don't know which is worse. He might as well be Hiromitsu Kanehara.

 

Maybe you're right. I still think the backlash sucks and is ridiculous. And it's not like Takada not being great at pure shoot-style is anything new. I was having discussion with Mike (Lorefice) more than fifteen years ago about this.

 

 

That's a good theory, and I think the souring had to happen first to set up the marginalizing. It is fascinating to watch Takada become a fringe guy, because there's no question he was once regarded as the king of shootstyle workers.

 

 

It's more that I love the '50s style of wrestling. I like watching the matwork. Compared to today's wrestling with no sense of space in the match, the older wrestling gives the selling more meaning to me.

 

That's great. The limited footage guys are always a puzzle to me, so I'm intrigued to hear how others look at it. Honestly, I probably overstate in my own mind the paucity of Thesz footage. We have a pretty good idea how he worked.

[GOTNW]

I'd say Takada has more in common with Onita than a Yuki Ishikawa as far as the type of worker he was. His "lack" of matwork skills is completely overblown-he wasn't great, but he was most certainly good. I don't think there was a worker that was as good in incorporating melodrama into matches as he was. I made the comparison when talking about the Vader matches-a big Takada match is like a fight scene out of a Rocky movie.

[El-P]

Never was a Satomura fan, way overrated in the late 90's early 00's. Ah, that famous debate about the ridiculous Hokuto match with the late/not-dead-after-all Vanes Naldi... Maybe she got better later on, so... But she sure was the poster girl for the way overrated GAEA promotion. Well, at least KAORU didn't make the list.

[El-P]

I'd say Takada has more in common with Onita than a Yuki Ishikawa as far as the type of worker he was. His "lack" of matwork skills is completely overblown-he wasn't great, but he was most certainly good. I don't think there was a worker that was as good in incorporating melodrama into matches as he was.

 

I'm glad someone agrees with me on the Takada/Onita comparison. That has been one of my point since I rewatched his stuff.

[Exposer]

Surprised Meiko got a number 3 vote. Too bad who ever did that is anonymous. I'd be interested in hearing why she's so high.

[Superstar Sleeze]

The fact Luger finished behind Okada is everything that is wrong about this world.

 

I did my part and voted for Takada. The only reason I did not vote him higher is because I have only seen a limited sampling of his 90s stuff, but I really enjoy him.

[Mando]

Holy cow! I thought I was a lock for the high vote on Meiko Satomura!

[TravJ1979]

Holy cow! I thought I was a lock for the high vote on Meiko Satomura!

I had her at #34 and felt the same. She is my highest drop yet.

[ohtani's jacket]

Mwahahaha, eat it Takada! Have some sauce to go with it.

 

That was a great run of wrestlers. I wonder if Thesz rolled over his grave being stuck between a woman and Luger.

 

But how did Bam Bam Bigelow get in the mix? Brody and Sabu make sense, but Bigelow going that high?

[Badlittlekitten]

I fear all the joshi girls will drop off around now.

[TravJ1979]

I fear all the joshi girls will drop off around now.

2 made my Top 25 so I'm holding out hope.

[Timbo Slice]

There should be a pretty wide range from the joshi wrestlers. I still have 7 that haven't been accounted for yet, and a few of them should be locks for the Top 50-75 range.

[jaedmc]

I'd say Takada has more in common with Onita than a Yuki Ishikawa as far as the type of worker he was. His "lack" of matwork skills is completely overblown-he wasn't great, but he was most certainly good. I don't think there was a worker that was as good in incorporating melodrama into matches as he was. I made the comparison when talking about the Vader matches-a big Takada match is like a fight scene out of a Rocky movie.

This is probably why he was in one of my favorite matches of 2007 from Hustlemania.