Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Danish Dynamite]

Yeah, this was too low for The Hammer to me. But I had him at #32, and I'm well aware that some will say that's way, way too high. I don't care. I think that's about fair for him. I know his PWO ranking shows he's increaed in awareness and popularity over the last decade or so, but I think there might be even more to come.

 

Greg is awesome, but someone I really didn't like in the WWF when I was a kid and he started teamin with Honky Tonk Man. That's a big, bad stain on a stellar career. The Hammer rules :-)

[Manatee]

I am one of the people who voted for Han and not Tamura. I didn't have time to get into shoot style for this project but made a point to check out Volk Han after reading Dave Musgrave's rundown of his career on p2bn. I don't recall if any of the matches I watched involved Tamura but if they did he didn't stand out enough to me to warrant further exploration. *runs away*

I didn't rank Dundee, which I knew would be one of my 2 most controversial omissions (the other being Ricky Morton). I did get a chance to watch some Dundee but I am generally very low on the Memphis punch n' bleeds. *runs away again*

Jim Breaks is my first top 10 guy to fall.

[El-P]

Hennig was my #66. The AWA stuff puts him over there when you add up Portland (well, the very good Buddy Rose feud) and WWF (mediocre ? he has enough good stuff in an era which wasn't conducive to having really good matches, unless you consider Hogan's crapfests as good stuff). Yeah, he fell off a cliff afterward.

 

Valentine was my #74. Not that much great stuff. The Backlund match in 79 (I think, but he had several really good ones later too), the very good Piper match at Starrcade, the Santana feud… Maybe overrated. But the thing is, I really like Valentine. I'm the guy who wish Greg Valentine would have been pushed to IC title in 92 and again on Nitro in 96 against guys like Regal and Finlay. So, glad he made it that time around.

[El Boricua]

Okay, I usually don't go into complaints or hysterics considering the spectrum of opinions that can be had, but Lesnar making the top 50 is just bs.

[El-P]

When Dick Murdoch was on, he looked like the best wrestler in the world. I said it before, serious Dick Murdoch would have been a better champ than Flair. But Murdoch could kill a match with his antics too. Murdoch was my #83

 

Really ? Hokuto dropping that low ? This joshi backlash really sucks. I had Akira at #25 because I valued more consistency over peak this time around, but still.

[victory]

Murdoch finally shows up. This is a guy that I hated back in the 80's. He looked like my friend's dad almost to a tee. I remember having a back and forth with a poster on the KM board like 10 years ago on how I didn't like him. I was bashing him based off his look. I finally gave him a chance about 5 years or so a go and totally take everything back about him. Murdoch was great.

 

I love the little things he did like cut a guy off during a tag so Murdoch's partner could get in. He did it so subtle you barely even notice it. So smooth as well, not Windham smooth, but smooth where everything looked so effortless in a good way. Great wrestler.

[Grimmas]

Okay, I usually don't go into complaints or hysterics considering the spectrum of opinions that can be had, but Lesnar making the top 50 is just bs.

I had him at 72... that feels like a mistake now.

 

EDIT: Just saw the person directly above him and I do like that aspect.

[El-P]

 

Okay, I usually don't go into complaints or hysterics considering the spectrum of opinions that can be had, but Lesnar making the top 50 is just bs.

I had him at 72... that feels like a mistake now.

 

Don't even want to talk about it... he's the one I regret ranking actually.

 

But. Talking about regrets, at this point, Andre above Hokuto feels like a complete joke. Pendulum effect gone insane. Andre was good, but not that good. I had him at #99 because I wanted to represent him, but really, people got carried away when they discovered than young Andre was really good. Oh, and Andre after the mid-80's wasn't very good. And Andre in Japan in the late 80's/early 90's sucked and was painfull to watch. Just sayin'.

[Grimmas]

 

 

Okay, I usually don't go into complaints or hysterics considering the spectrum of opinions that can be had, but Lesnar making the top 50 is just bs.

I had him at 72... that feels like a mistake now.

 

Don't even want to talk about it... he's the one I regret ranking actually.

 

But. Talking about regrets, at this point, Andre above Hokuto feels like a complete joke. Pendulum effect gone insane. Andre was good, but not that good. I had him at #99 because I wanted to represent him, but really, people got carried away when they discovered than young Andre was really good. Oh, and Andre after the mid-80's wasn't very good. And Andre in Japan in the late 80's/early 90's sucked and was painfull to watch. Just sayin'.

 

I think late 80's Andre is freaking awesome. One of the smartest workers ever. Talk about getting the most out of the least.

[El Boricua]

 

 

 

 

Okay, I usually don't go into complaints or hysterics considering the spectrum of opinions that can be had, but Lesnar making the top 50 is just bs.

I had him at 72... that feels like a mistake now.

Don't even want to talk about it... he's the one I regret ranking actually.

 

But. Talking about regrets, at this point, Andre above Hokuto feels like a complete joke. Pendulum effect gone insane. Andre was good, but not that good. I had him at #99 because I wanted to represent him, but really, people got carried away when they discovered than young Andre was really good. Oh, and Andre after the mid-80's wasn't very good. And Andre in Japan in the late 80's/early 90's sucked and was painfull to watch. Just sayin'.

I had both Andre and Hokuto in my top 30 with Hokuto higher. Lesnar was not on my ballot.

 

Heading into the top 50 I have 32 wrestlers from my ballot still to appear.

[El-P]

Late 80's Andre was getting the most out of zilch. Which in the end of the day, meant zilch. And shitty, boring matches with a guy in pain who could barely move.

[Childs]

Looks like I will have 48 of the top 50 somewhere on my ballot. I didn't rank Harley and I'm blanking on the other missing man/woman.

[El-P]

Santo, Casas, Cena (fuck me)... I believe Aja is the last remaining woman.

[TravJ1979]

I will have 45 of the top 50 ranked.

21 of my Top 25 made the Final Top 50.

33 of my Top 50 made the Final Top 50.

 

Interestingly, Akira Hokuto (18) and Jaguar Yokota (19) are my highest ranked that have dropped.

[TravJ1979]

I am and have pretty much always been a huge CM Punk fan, but he is being MASSIVELY overrated. As is Mick Foley,

[goodhelmet]

Looks like I will have 48 of the top 50 somewhere on my ballot. I didn't rank Harley and I'm blanking on the other missing man/woman.

Did Angle pop up yet? Did you put Angle on your list.

[TravJ1979]

Angle was #68

[Childs]

Angle popped up, at 68 I think. It's Foley, whom I actually regret not ranking. Thanks for the memory jog TravJ.

[TravJ1979]

I didn't rank:

 

Billy Robinson

Fit Finlay

CM Punk

Mick Foley

Yoshiaki Fujiwara

[Microstatistics]

Santo, Casas, Cena (fuck me)... I believe Aja is the last remaining woman.

That's true only one female in the top 50, that's nuts.

[fxnj]

I feel like in a few years when people get used to WWE taking women's wrestling seriously and companies like Stardom making their product more accessible people are going to look back on this list and see the ranking for women as a huge weakness. I like Curt Hennig but there's plenty of women who didn't even make the list with a resume that smokes his.

[Childs]

The story isn't women being underrepresented so much as top performers from all the niche categories being underrepresented. Only the top, top luchadores seem to have escaped that fate, and I won't be shocked if we see all of them fall before the top 25. Maybe Casas or Santito are mainstream enough to survive past that point, but I'm not sure.

[GOTNW]

I actually felt quite good about my ballot but seeing the results has only made me have even less regrets. Kind of predicted this would happen as well.

[Death From Above]

I would have been shocked if anyone but DEAN had been the high vote for Murdoch it was just a matter of how high. Probably the MVP of the beloved 80's Mid-South set?

 

Akira Hokuto was my highest ranked woman. I had her at #12. I think you can make a case there are a small handful of women that have more "great matches" but nobody made women's wrestling feel more important and did more little things well to me. And her best work is as good as anything, ever. She's got absolutely everything.

 

Kensuke Sasaki isn't even the toughest wrestler in the room when the family sits down to dinner. That's something.

[elliott]

 

 

The Kohsaka match from 98 was pretty remarkable for Tamura, too, and the first match I saw outside the Han matches that sold me on him. He also had the Mishima and Ito matches from U-STYLE, with the Ito match perhaps being the best in the history of the promotion.

 

I get the argument about those Han matches being better representations of the style, hence why people lean more on what Han did. I just don't see Han being able to have the matches that Tamura had with guys that were either on the fringe or wholly not shoot-style workers, and I've always liked that more about Tamura, no matter how smooth Han was in the ring.

 

Oh I totally agree that Han couldn't have had the Vader match. Han's one of the few guys in wrestling I could come up with that I think is great that I just can't imagine meshing with Vader. I don't think that makes Volk less great at what he did, but I do think that it is something that separates Tamura from Han.

 

I'm going to start a Volk Han Complete and Accurate soon and one thing I've been thinking about lately is Volk being a high spot based wrestler or a guy who excels in spotfests. Tamura was really great at milking drama and building to big moments and pacing his matches so there is a sense of escalation. I'm not sure Han is on his level in that regard so it is something I'll be on the lookout for.

 

I know people always point to Han/Tamura as the best "pure shootstyle" but I really think Tamura vs Kohsaka is. Volk feels like the Billy Robinson to Tamura's Jack Brisco. Like when Fujiwara and Friends were creating shoot style and developing all the workers, someone like Tamura at his absolute peak would be the best they could hope for. Volk Han is awesome, but he was doing wacky shit that the Shoot-Style Founding Fathers weren't thinking of. I haven't really worked it out quite yet, but I've been thinking about it because I want to go back and give the Han Trilogy and Kohsaka match real reviews in my C&A and I'm thinking it might be best to talk about them all together and compare/contrast and that Billy Robinson to Jack Brisco line has been floating around in my head.

 

 

I don't get why being able to have a match with Vader is any sort of criteria or benchmark for a shoot-style worker.

 

Who said it was? I rated Tamura 25 spots higher than Volk and it wasn't just because Tamura had a great match with Vader one time.

 

But remember that this list isn't 100 greatest shoot style wrestlers of all time. I don't think it is weird at all to say Tamura was better because in the course of perfecting shoot-style, he was able to bend and adapt and find compelling ways to work with someone like Vader who was a pro-style guy.

 

Could Volk build a match around selling and striking like Tamura does in the Vader match or did Volk have to work with a guy with at least some knowledge of submission grappling to have a compelling match? Maybe he did but I haven't seen it. I'll know soon enough I guess but I tend to doubt it.