Reactions to the List: 25-11

[El Boricua]

I have 7 of the top ten on my ballot. The only ones not on my ballot are Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada.

[El Boricua]

Grimmas just spoiled the order. Glad that Lawler will rank ahead of Misawa.

 

Pretty sneaky that Grimmas, making us think it was in alphabetical order. We're onto you and your sneaky ways.

[Matt D]

 

Grimmas just spoiled the order. Glad that Lawler will rank ahead of Misawa.

 

Pretty sneaky that Grimmas, making us think it was in alphabetical order. We're onto you and your sneaky ways.

 

I'm glad Buddy beat Bret at least!

[pol]

Could easily see Hansen taking first given he has both 90s All Japan and US terrorities pedigree, both of which seem to count for a lot.

[The Man in Blak]

I lost out on four of my Top 10:

 

1. ???

2. ???

3. Nick Bockwinkel

4. Tatsumi Fujinami

5. ???

6. Negro Casas

7. El Satanico

8. ???

9. ???

10. ???

 

They were replaced by Flair (#11), Lawler (#15), Mysterio (#20), and Kobashi (#26) -- even though they were out of my top ten, I don't mind trading the two luchadors for Lawler and Mysterio, especially since I ended up low-balling Rey more than I realized.

 

 

If I remember the stats shown for the ballots/average of the Top 10, the #9 guy had the lowest number of ballots, but the highest average ranking: I'm thinking that could be Lawler.

 

I'd like to see Jumbo or Kobashi outside of the Top 10, but it's probably going to end up being someone like Liger.

 

Just curious...why did you want to see Jumbo or Kobashi outside the Top 10?

 

Other than the fact that I had Liger much higher than Jumbo and Kobashi on my ballot, I'd also like to see a little more diversity in the upper tier outside of the usual suspects from AJPW (and Crockett).

[Cap]

I wont be really too surprised if anyone in the top 10 (outside of Rey) is number one. I think Flair is the most likely given how the list has gone so far. I just see him on a huge number of ballots and I picture him getting a huge number of #1 votes. My dork heart hopes Danielson gets it. I think he has a pretty legit case, but I mostly hope based on him being probably my personal favorite and primarily responsible for me getting back into and staying into wrestling after I gave it up.

[Bierschwale]

 

Vader has appeal to folks who are into mainstream WWE, WCW, shoot style, Japan and even the indies. If you look at it that way, it's doesn't really surprise me that he appeared on so many ballots.

 

Of my crappy cataloging, he went MOTYC-level or better in AWA, NJPW, CWA, WCW, UWF-i, WWF, & AJPW. There being a match I like at that level from his NOAH team with Scorpio wouldn't be at all surprising.

 

 

I figured Vader would have a good chance at being on every ballot, 148/151 is not bad. Does anyone want to speak up about leaving him or Steamer off their ballot and why?

 

It's strange not one person could get on all ballots.

 

 

Never been a unanimous induction for the Baseball Hall of Fame. It's just the way of things. Also, whoever suggested GAB as the Sting match over Starrcade/SB III has a beautiful soul. Best match of the three.

[Bierschwale]

None of the eight wrestlers since Casas fell at #22 have beaten his average vote of 19.03. None of them have even broke an average vote of 20. None of those eight have even come close to his 52 top 10 votes. This is not meant as a complaint at all. I just find it interesting and it is clear now Casas did really, really well with just the lack of votes holding him back. Looks like he has a shot at top 10 in average vote.

 

Imagine if Casas had asked for a few final tours in NJPW over the last few years? I'm going to assume without evidence that he gets to #17.

[Death From Above]

I have no problem with Flair as wrestler of the decade for the 80's, and from a certain perspective I have no problem with thinking the 80's are wrestling's best decade. So I honestly can't say I find any particular issue if Flair is number one at the end of the day.

[bradhindsight]

Both Casas and Bock were just flat out hurt by the lack of ballots - otherwise they had a bunch of King votes (top 5/10).

[goc]

I have 7 of the top ten on my ballot. The only ones not on my ballot are Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada.

Same. I think I had the other 7 remaining guys all in my top 10 too. Fujinami, Bock & Casas are the 3 guys from my top 10 who've dropped already.

[jpchicago23]

Lawler, Flair, Funk, Bryan, and I believe Misawa and Hansen all made my top 10. If not Misawa then it couldve been Liger. Really happy to see Liger in the top 10, I've been watching more and more of him lately and it never gets old to me

[Bierschwale]

 

 

 

It wasn't so much about nationality as it was brand loyalty to a company, and that has absolutely fallen out of style. And good riddance.

 

Oh yeah, there's absolutely no Memphis loyalty, not at all.

 

When only Lawler and Dundee make the top 100, there isn't.

 

 

It's not like there were any other Top 100 worthy candidates over there. Wait, yes, Eaton and Dutch Mantell, both of whom I voted for.

 

 

Ironically, Savage is another "Memphis guy" in the top 100.

[JAC]

Both Casas and Bock were just flat out hurt by the lack of ballots - otherwise they had a bunch of King votes (top 5/10).

 

There appears to be a significant bias in favour of WWF/WCW guys who worked during the 80's and 90's. Every voter has his or her blind spots, but 80's and 90's North American workers (well, North-of-the Rio-Grande North American) are absolutely nobody's blindspot. No surprise, they're the workers who practically everyone has seen. But the end result is that these workers are getting a boost over pre-boom wrestlers or foreign wrestlers who fewer people have seen.

 

There are some really funny placements that illustrate this--one guys gets better average ballot placement but is outright omitted from more ballots, resulting in him falling behind someone with worse average numbers (but more ballots):

 

29. El Hijo del Santo (95 ballots, 22.5 avg ranking, 27 top tens)

28. Bobby Eaton (128 ballots, 41.4 avg ranking, 0 top tens)

-----

22. Negro Casas (108 ballots, 19.0 avg ranking, 52 top tens)

21. William Regal (138 ballots, 33.0 avg ranking, 8 top tens)

-----

16. Nick Bockwinkel (132 ballots, 21.4 avg ranking, 46 top tens)

15. Ricky Steamboat (144 ballots, 24.6 avg ranking, 17 top tens)

-----

13. Genichiro Tenryu (131 ballots, 17.5 avg ranking, 56 top ten votes)

12. Eddie Guerrero (146 ballots, 24.2 avg ranking, 29 top ten votes)

 

None of this is surprising, but some people--especially the luchadors--are getting hosed. While it's perfectly possible that some of these omissions are intentional and considered, I suspect most are a result of lack of exposure. I wonder whether there will be any desire to find a way to counteract this in 2026.

 

Full disclosure: one reason I didn't submit a ballot was because I knew my ignorance of lucha and some other styles would result in shafting those workers.

[Cap]

 

Full disclosure: one reason I didn't submit a ballot was because I knew my ignorance of lucha and some other styles would result in shafting those workers.

 

Same. In beginning my dives into Lucha and Joshi and rewatching a lot of All Japan and some New Japan I realized I knew enough to know that I didn't know enough to be happy with my own list.

 

My list would have been more or less obsolete already as I have been continuing to watch Lucha this month. I could make cases for a hand full of wrestlers in each, but just not enough. If they remained full blind spots that would have been one thing, but I was too much in process of falling in love with some wrestlers and styles and not in enough to know what to do with them.

[jamesie_2015]

I have eight of my Top 10 still in play. What does that say about me?

[JAC]

 

 

Full disclosure: one reason I didn't submit a ballot was because I knew my ignorance of lucha and some other styles would result in shafting those workers.

 

Same. In beginning my dives into Lucha and Joshi and rewatching a lot of All Japan and some New Japan I realized I knew enough to know that I didn't know enough to be happy with my own list.

 

My list would have been more or less obsolete already as I have been continuing to watch Lucha this month. I could make cases for a hand full of wrestlers in each, but just not enough. If they remained full blind spots that would have been one thing, but I was too much in process of falling in love with some wrestlers and styles and not in enough to know what to do with them.

 

 

I guess the road to 2026 begins now!

[funkdoc]

relevant point nobody's mentioned yet: Bockwinkel made the top 10 US-born wrestlers!

 

#1-6: Funk, Hansen, Flair, Bryan, Rey, Lawler

#7: Eddie

#8: Vader

#9: Steamboat

#10: Bock

 

that's a pretty big win for Bock and Lawler tbh

[efrim]

 

Both Casas and Bock were just flat out hurt by the lack of ballots - otherwise they had a bunch of King votes (top 5/10).

 

There appears to be a significant bias in favour of WWF/WCW guys who worked during the 80's and 90's. Every voter has his or her blind spots, but 80's and 90's North American workers (well, North-of-the Rio-Grande North American) are absolutely nobody's blindspot. No surprise, they're the workers who practically everyone has seen. But the end result is that these workers are getting a boost over pre-boom wrestlers or foreign wrestlers who fewer people have seen.

 

There are some really funny placements that illustrate this--one guys gets better average ballot placement but is outright omitted from more ballots, resulting in him falling behind someone with worse average numbers (but more ballots):

 

29. El Hijo del Santo (95 ballots, 22.5 avg ranking, 27 top tens)

28. Bobby Eaton (128 ballots, 41.4 avg ranking, 0 top tens)

-----

22. Negro Casas (108 ballots, 19.0 avg ranking, 52 top tens)

21. William Regal (138 ballots, 33.0 avg ranking, 8 top tens)

-----

16. Nick Bockwinkel (132 ballots, 21.4 avg ranking, 46 top tens)

15. Ricky Steamboat (144 ballots, 24.6 avg ranking, 17 top tens)

-----

13. Genichiro Tenryu (131 ballots, 17.5 avg ranking, 56 top ten votes)

12. Eddie Guerrero (146 ballots, 24.2 avg ranking, 29 top ten votes)

 

None of this is surprising, but some people--especially the luchadors--are getting hosed. While it's perfectly possible that some of these omissions are intentional and considered, I suspect most are a result of lack of exposure. I wonder whether there will be any desire to find a way to counteract this in 2026.

 

Full disclosure: one reason I didn't submit a ballot was because I knew my ignorance of lucha and some other styles would result in shafting those workers.

 

 

This is interesting and a good thing to notice, but also fully expecting. Individual lists will always be better considered and more interesting than the final tally

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

 

Both Casas and Bock were just flat out hurt by the lack of ballots - otherwise they had a bunch of King votes (top 5/10).

 

There appears to be a significant bias in favour of WWF/WCW guys who worked during the 80's and 90's.

 

 

Four of the top 10 are going to be Japanese workers. Five of the top 10 are going to be guys who primarily worked Japan. Another top 10 finisher worked in the indies and WWE in the 2000s. Another worked Mexico, mid-90s WCW and 2000s WWE.

 

Not sure I see a significant bias toward 80s and 90s WWF/WCW guys.

[jdw]

Taue revisionism predates this board by a fair number of years. There may be posters here who came to Taue late and thought they'd split the atom, but there's nothing folks can possibly say about Taue that hasn't been said before. If someone had had a new idea about Taue during this project I would have spat on my drink and fallen ass over backward.

 

As people pointed out, he was 26th last time around. Taue revisionism wasn't even new at that time. It simply was fully flowered in 2006 rather than a seedling.

[El Boricua]

 

I have 7 of the top ten on my ballot. The only ones not on my ballot are Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada.

Same. I think I had the other 7 remaining guys all in my top 10 too. Fujinami, Bock & Casas are the 3 guys from my top 10 who've dropped already.

 

Almost the same with me, except I had Santo in place of Casas in my top ten.

[pol]

 

 

Both Casas and Bock were just flat out hurt by the lack of ballots - otherwise they had a bunch of King votes (top 5/10).

 

There appears to be a significant bias in favour of WWF/WCW guys who worked during the 80's and 90's.

 

 

Four of the top 10 are going to be Japanese workers. Five of the top 10 are going to be guys who primarily worked Japan. Another top 10 finisher worked in the indies and WWE in the 2000s. Another worked Mexico, mid-90s WCW and 2000s WWE.

 

Not sure I see a significant bias toward 80s and 90s WWF/WCW guys.

 

 

Looking at placements in an absolute sense tells you nothing regarding biases. Need to consider where they are vs. where they would be if whatever adjustment was made. For example placement vs. average vote, in which I think many of those guys overperformed.

[Bierschwale]

relevant point nobody's mentioned yet: Bockwinkel made the top 10 US-born wrestlers!

 

#1-6: Funk, Hansen, Flair, Bryan, Rey, Lawler

#7: Eddie

#8: Vader

#9: Steamboat

#10: Bock

 

that's a pretty big win for Bock and Lawler tbh

 

Nine of my ten, and everyone you guessed. We had that conversation on Twitter about me having a consolidated US-born top 10, except that having found another time that I referenced that top 10, it was only 9 of those 10 and that the tenth slot (which this time was Austin) is seemingly always up for grabs..

 

I am PERFECTLY happy to pull Lawler from "gutless #11-#20 list member" up to "gutless #1-#10 list member".

[cubbymark]

Both Casas and Bock were just flat out hurt by the lack of ballots - otherwise they had a bunch of King votes (top 5/10).

 

This is true of my ballot, where Casas was my #1 and Bockwinkel was my #2, in no small part to Matt D's pitches and me binging on Bockwinkel footage when he passed away.