Separate But Equal?: The ultimate goal of Feminism in wrestling

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

 

As a former strip club DJ, I can tell you that two word names stunk because:

1. They didn't roll off the tongue.

2. The girls created personas based on one name. It was easier to get them over with one name for the marks to recognize and refer to.As well as giving the marks the feeling that they already knew them personally cause they knew their "name".

3. And a one word name was far fucking easier to write on the board in the booth to determine order of stage work.

 

Pro Wrestling and Strip Clubs are so fucking similar, I've said it ever since I worked at one.

Miss Elizabeth, Stacy Keibler, Torrie Wilson, Judy Bagwell etc etc. Youre generalizing again

There are exceptions, and I don't count "miss" as a name.

[fakeplastictrees]

Over the last 20 years (starting in 1996) in the major U.S. promotions (ROH, TNA, ECW, WCW, WWE), I venture to say that there are more one named female wrestlers that female wrestlers with first and last names. The tricky thing here is that some names where shortened and some where extended depending upon the promotion/angle at the time. Katarina Waters was known professionally as "Katie Lea Burchill" in WWE, but in TNA she was known was "Winter". The same can be said for Terri Runnels/Marlena, Brooke/Brooke Tessmacher, etc.

[Luchaundead]

Why do the majority of female talent go by only their first name and nothing else? It believe it comes down to two things:

 

1. Some of the most famous female celebrities of our time only go by one name. Cher, Madonna, Adele, etc. Even those who 'have a last name (i.e. Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, etc.), usually mark their 'coming out' and 'milestone albums with just their first name. Its a statement that there is only one. If you are an A&R of a music company and your receptionist tells you 'Mariah's' agent is online one and wants to talk shop...you would automatically assume "Mariah Carey" as she has branded herself both ways and being able to just go by your first name and assume all forms is something else. Kleenex is a brand of tissue, however people use the brand as a synonym for tissue. It is incorrect, but the branding is so strong it has slipped into out lexicon.This is what promoters are trying to achieve with the one word names. It sounds very "Diva". "Diva" in this case being viewed as something strong and empowering.

 

2. The flip side to all of this is, of course, the stripper name. Women are only in pro wrestling because the male audience needs some eye candy between the big matches. This is of course what some promoters truly believe and whether or not the audience agrees means absolutely dick because these women are going to get the stripper treatment. "Now coming down the aisle...Naomi!", "From Australia...Emma!", etc. In WWE, TNA, and ROH (thought WWE is the bigger offender) we see these women wrestling matches in full makeup and ridiculous amounts of hair extensions. The expectation of the presentation is started before the women hits the curtain, and while it doesn't play heavily into the perception of women in wrestling, it does play a factor. Trish Stratus sounds like a real person. Jazz sounds like a stage name someone is using as it most likely her nickname (as "The Fridge" became Perry's nickname). "Cameron" on the other hand, just sounds too plan and because it has no real significance based on the commonality of the name, people associate no value and are left with the default thinking of 'eye candy'. When women named "Cameron" are booked to do nothing, then it just exemplifies this point even further. If these women are considered strong and empowering characters, then that's all fine and good-- but being and sounding 'sexy' is first and foremost.

 

 

The whole "Diego and Fernando" stuff will be posted in the racism topic as that is what it really comes down to.

 

I was going to say that part of the given name only trend with women may play in to the subjection of women visa-vis expectation of surname change upon marriage. My thought process there is that women's last names don't matter as their lineage is not important for they are not entitled to anything in terms of line of succession or inheritance. When a woman marries they will throw away their own identity to become nothing more than a reflection of the man that has chosen to mary them.

 

Then Madonna got me thinking that the singular named female phenomenon goes all the way back to The Virgin Mary or Madonna once again an example showing that it does not matter her past of where she came from, all that really matters is her role as the vessel for the miraculous birth of God's only begotten son.

 

So is it a subconscious choice to for women in wrestling to be treated as less-than, identity-less, without back story or familial ties based on histories poor treatment of women being ingrained in society or is a conscious effort to make them more easily treated as nothing more than eye candy because without a surname we can pretend she isn't someone daughter or even a person at all?

[ohtani's jacket]

Mary didn't have a surname, though. She may have been referred to as Mary daughter of Joachim, but surnames themselves weren't used until the Middle Ages.

[Luchaundead]

This is a good point. I tend to not think of the bible as non-fiction and think that most things where written with some type of intention but I completely over looked them attempting to keep things time period correct. While that dose sway the intent of original text it does not change the effect it may have had on the subconscious of society.

[goodhelmet]

Mary didn't have a surname, though. She may have been referred to as Mary daughter of Joachim, but surnames themselves weren't used until the Middle Ages.

Shit, all these years and I thought Jesus's last name was Christ.

[Gutenberger]

I've noticed an influx of 2nd generation female wrestlers lately. Do you think there is a connection between the goal of gaining more acceptance for Women's wrestling and this, in a way of "well, we got this ladies who have famous surnames, they sure will be respected because of that" or ist it just coincidence that they're coming up now?

[El-P]

I've noticed an influx of 2nd generation female wrestlers lately. Do you think there is a connection between the goal of gaining more acceptance for Women's wrestling and this, in a way of "well, we got this ladies who have famous surnames, they sure will be respected because of that" or ist it just coincidence that they're coming up now?

 

Who are they ? Ric's daughter. Neidhart's daughter. Snuka's daughter. Tully's daughter. Who else ?

 

And about sexism, since we're at it, gotta "love" Corny's latest rant about female wrestler (who paid their dues) vs hoes of Total Divas. And by hoes he meant girls who are using pro-wrestler as a way to get into the entertainment business and don't really love pro-wrestling and don't pay their dues by travelling, earning shit and suffering for da buziness… you know the drill.

 

And then, he adds about Charlotte "okay, she didn't do it that way, but she's go the genes". Oh. So that's why A guy like Randy Orton is revered by co-workers despite being a black hole of charisma and work. But back to the women, he talks about Stacy Keibler who "sucked dicks to her way to spousing a millionaire", to which I really can't disagree that much, since Stacy really dind't showcase very much talent at all except having great legs. But that's another matter. Beautiful people, you know how it works. But yeah, those "second generation" girls who "got the genes", it's no big deal they get straight into WWE's contracts. But a girl like Nikki Bella who at one point improved a lot and became a really good heel shouldn't get any respect, if you follow his diatribe. Double standarts anyone ?

 

So yeah, maybe, from the perspective of the people in the business, it plays into this whole new vision of women's wrestling.

[Mr. Lacelle]

Paul Ellering's daughter competes now

[FMKK]

 

I've noticed an influx of 2nd generation female wrestlers lately. Do you think there is a connection between the goal of gaining more acceptance for Women's wrestling and this, in a way of "well, we got this ladies who have famous surnames, they sure will be respected because of that" or ist it just coincidence that they're coming up now?

 

Who are they ? Ric's daughter. Neidhart's daughter. Snuka's daughter. Tully's daughter. Who else ?

 

And about sexism, since we're at it, gotta "love" Corny's latest rant about female wrestler (who paid their dues) vs hoes of Total Divas. And by hoes he meant girls who are using pro-wrestler as a way to get into the entertainment business and don't really love pro-wrestling and don't pay their dues by travelling, earning shit and suffering for da buziness… you know the drill.

 

And then, he adds about Charlotte "okay, she didn't do it that way, but she's go the genes". Oh. So that's why A guy like Randy Orton is revered by co-workers despite being a black hole of charisma and work. But back to the women, he talks about Stacy Keibler who "sucked dicks to her way to spousing a millionaire", to which I really can't disagree that much, since Stacy really dind't showcase very much talent at all except having great legs. But that's another matter. Beautiful people, you know how it works. But yeah, those "second generation" girls who "got the genes", it's no big deal they get straight into WWE's contracts. But a girl like Nikki Bella who at one point improved a lot and became a really good heel shouldn't get any respect, if you follow his diatribe. Double standarts anyone ?

 

So yeah, maybe, from the perspective of the people in the business, it plays into this whole new vision of women's wrestling.

There's definitely room on this section of the forum to discuss the wrestling business as a cult.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Well, Jim Cornette is a douchebag. So there's that.

And I'm thinking the idea of single first names for women isn't any different than Cher, Madonna,or Beyonce.

[Gutenberger]

Foley's daughter is getting in there too.

[GSR]

 

I've noticed an influx of 2nd generation female wrestlers lately. Do you think there is a connection between the goal of gaining more acceptance for Women's wrestling and this, in a way of "well, we got this ladies who have famous surnames, they sure will be respected because of that" or ist it just coincidence that they're coming up now?

 

Who are they ? Ric's daughter. Neidhart's daughter. Snuka's daughter. Tully's daughter. Who else ?

 

 

Paige is the daughter of Ricky Knight and Sweet Saraya. Sure, they may not be as big a names as those mentioned but she's still second generation. Robbie Brookside's daughter Xia is another, and I imagine it won't be too long until she's off over to WWE and NXT.

 

[El-P]

Paige is the daughter of Ricky Knight and Sweet Saraya.

 

Who ? No disrespect, but I don't think it's seen exactly like being the child of a former mainstream WWE/NWA guy, especially to those guys in Titan Tower.

 

Foley's daughter is wrestling ?

[ohtani's jacket]

It seems there are just as many second generation female wrestlers in the business now than there were second generation males at any point after the death of the territories.

[Loss]

The women Cornette is lambasting were often specifically recruited by WWE, so shouldn't the criticism go there instead of to the women themselves?

[El-P]

The women Cornette is lambasting were often specifically recruited by WWE, so shouldn't the criticism go there instead of to the women themselves?

 

That's the old mentality of "He didn't really love da buziness" that painted Lex Luger or Goldberg in a bad light. Yeah, that Goldberg guy who is a militant for animal rights surely deserves shit for not loving da buziness like those sleazebags who drug raped "rats" and used to shit in bags. (I guess all this talk should be transferred in "pro-wrestling as a cult" thread though).

 

But yeah. If John Laurinaitis wanted to recruit lingerie models, why blame any of those women to try and make a buck out of it ? This is show business. The whole "getting new fresh meat" for the boyz is another issue entirely, although I wonder if that's not also a case of slut shaming. If some of these girls flirted with the boyz, what's the big deal about it ?

[fxnj]

For a long time in WWE I think they intentionally cultivated the view that women couldn't wrestle and were just there to give people a bathroom break and do photo shoots. At Night of Champions 2009 McCool and Melina bad the best WWE women's for several years in either direction and they ended up with a lot of heat for upstaging the boys. There's also the deal with Gail Kim turning to shit after going to WWE and leaving after complaining about what a poor environment it was to have a good match.

[Gutenberger]

 

Paige is the daughter of Ricky Knight and Sweet Saraya.

 

Who ? No disrespect, but I don't think it's seen exactly like being the child of a former mainstream WWE/NWA guy, especially to those guys in Titan Tower.

 

Foley's daughter is wrestling ?

 

Yeah. that seems to be tho main focus of that new show, Holy Foley, him training her and thus resulting in comedic/awkward moments

[El-P]

What new show ? Total Diva ?

 

Well, good for Foley who manages to still get a paycheck from them.

[Luchaundead]

What new show ? Total Diva ?

 

Well, good for Foley who manages to still get a paycheck from them.

 

Holy Foley

It's going to be a network show called Holy Foley. I had heard Noelle was training at CAP dropped out and came back once of twice so I wonder if this "training" show is going to be mostly gimmick. Will see I also wonder what first name only they are going to give her?

Holy Foley

[kjh]

"But back to the women, he talks about Stacy Keibler who "sucked dicks to her way to spousing a millionaire", to which I really can't disagree that much, since Stacy really didn't showcase very much talent at all except having great legs."

 

God forbid a female wrestler makes the most of the only big mainstream opportunity she ever was going to get, ends up getting treated better as a Hollywood C-lister and falls in love with someone who is wealthy!

[El-P]

"But back to the women, he talks about Stacy Keibler who "sucked dicks to her way to spousing a millionaire", to which I really can't disagree that much, since Stacy really didn't showcase very much talent at all except having great legs."

 

God forbid a female wrestler makes the most of the only big mainstream opportunity she ever was going to get, ends up getting treated better as a Hollywood C-lister and falls in love with someone who is wealthy!

 

"L"ascenceur social", as we say in French. But really, yeah, good for her though.

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

Paige is the daughter of Ricky Knight and Sweet Saraya.

 

Who ? No disrespect, but I don't think it's seen exactly like being the child of a former mainstream WWE/NWA guy, especially to those guys in Titan Tower.

 

 

 

Except, they mention it all the time on TV.

[Cap]

I have been swamped for a few weeks and haven’t had time to get on here so I have been kind of catching up with this new subforum and am really happy it exists, especially this conversation. I just wanted to hit a few of the things from the thread quickly

 

Going back a few pages to what may or may not set pro wrestling apart from other sports or forms of entertainment, the way violence has become a key way of negotiating gender beyond biology has always struck me as particularly important for wrestling since wrestling uses violence as a key to meaning making and story telling. More than any form of entertainment I can think of, violence is carefully manipulated in wrestling as a way of drawing out emotion in the audience and create apiece of art and/or entertainment to be consumed. The relationship between violence and meaning is at the heart of wrestling more than any other form of entertainment (including violent sports because there – at least theoretically – violence isn’t strategically manipulated). There is a strong argument to be made that violence has become a way of articulating “masculine” and “feminine” subjects, particularly in the west, and giving those subjects an implicit value. This isn’t to say it is a simple equation that people necessarily see the person being beat up as female and the person doing the beating as male, but rather that violence has become a key to the subtext gender negotiation insofar as gender is implicitly hierarchal in a given context. And that hierarchy is articulated at least in part through the real or fictionalized physical “advantages” of the male body. The easiest lay example of this is the prevalence of sexist and homophobic insults to degrade people, insults that are often used and enforced from a young age, but there is more to it when thinking about the tensions between violence, gender, meaning, and value.

 

Take the MMA fighter Fallon Fox for example. When she was outed as transgender the discourse around her demonstrated perfectly that people associated her perceived physical advantages in hand to hand combat as not just a reason she shouldn’t fight women, but as reason that she was a MAN, objectively – biologically a man. Aside from the bottomless pit of transphobic jokes that the story inspired, pundits used her potential for violence as a way of assigning her a “real” gender despite the science of what reassignment was doing to her body. The argument for male and female divisions in MMA became in some ways based on the imperative to define Fallon Fox’s “real” gender. Obviously MMA is very different than wrestling and intergender matches don’t inspire the same sorts of concerns, but they are subject – at least subconsciously I think – to the same concerns and the same trepidations about the relationship between gender and violence.

 

Popular American sports particularly celebrate the physical characteristics that males tend to have and wrestling turns that celebration into a goddmned carnival. This isn’t just because a large percentage of the story being told on a wrestling program is through violence. Everything revolves around these characteristics. The clothing, the lighting, and the poses: wrestling doesn’t just show off physical traits and characteristics that have been used over time to negotiate a gender hierarchy, it fundamentally relies on them. Violence is even a way of pushing the boundaries, of challenging expectations and making something special and I think that manifests itself differently for men and women. I always think back to the first Dump vs Chigusa hair match – a well known and controversial piece of violence. That is something that makes some people very uneasy and one regular PWOer (I think Dylan, but I have only heard people reference his take, not his take itself) even apparently contended it has a subtext of rape. While I think the match is absolutely brutal and really does jump as far over “the line” as it possibly can, I don’t necessarily think it is any more brutal and violent than many acclaimed men’s matches. Of course, there are also qualitative and contextual differences between the matches, but I don’t see the same sort of discussion about the aftermath of Hansen/Funk (4/14/83) or Lesnar/Cena squash (where they also focused on the emotional reactions of kids as Cena was manhandled). I am not saying that Dump vs Chigusa shouldn’t make people uncomfortable or that any thoughtful reading is necessarily wrong. The varied ways of reading and understanding wrestling (especially post footage boom) is one of the coolest things about this type of engagement with wrestling. I also acknowledge that I am relatively new to Joshi so I know the story of what is happening before and after the match, but I don’t have a ton of the deeper context. However, I can’t help but thank that part of the discussion of that match and part of the trepidations about it have to do with it being a piece of excessive violence that elicits strong emotion performed and carried out by women – again a nod to the tensions between gender, violence, meaning, and (more explicitly in this example perhaps) sex/sexuality.

 

I have always thought this gives wrestling some unique challenges and some unique opportunities. In some ways, wrestling can challenge the hierarchies and the masculine monopoly over violence and the notion that women cannot or should not use violence or have the corollary attributes associated with violence because everything is staged. People know the violence isn’t “real” and the intention is fictional. On the other hand, wrestling is still presented to an audience with varying degrees of (more often than not subconscious) comfort with any challenge to those hierarchies. This inspires different, and sometimes troubling responses to the violence itself. Additionally there is unique dynamics of face/heel that orchestrate the crowd to contribute to the story in some ways and that is especially tricky today. Even if the story is written in a way that brings a woman and a man to the ring as equals there is no guarantee that the audience will accept it and/or respond to it in a way that helps forward that. There is no guarantee that the audience wont hijack that. Then again, there is also no way of predicting 100% when the audience will accept or demand women be placed in new situations. There is just so much of the equation that seems out of the hands of those orchestrating the violence itself.

 

Ultimately, to me this means that it is not only possible to create interesting intergender situations, but it might be one of the most challenging and compelling frontiers in wrestling today. It couldn’t be done in the same way when those in the business attempted to maintain its legitimacy. There are a lot of hurdles and putting something like that together isn’t just a matter of throwing two people in a ring or a program and taking it seriously. Everything from the writing to the performances to the commentary has to be committed to making that work well for it to get much traction and it will probably need a little bit of timing and luck to work at a mainstream level.

 

To echo some people earlier, I think Lucha Underground does a pretty good job. I am only just over half way through season one, but I find it funny how even LU can’t help but draw attention to the dynamics I am talking about and their choice to buck them in some ways. They started by just trying to say “hey, everyone competes as equals here” but as the season moved it was almost as if they felt they needed to talk about it more. Stryker goes on and on about how he doesn’t want to go on and on about feminism and just wants the action to speak for itself. Maybe that changes later in season one and into season two. Again, I like how they approach it, but even they sort of flag some of the inherent relationships between violence and gender and work some of the sexuality stuff into the storyline by pointing out how certain moves that are perfectly normal between two men or two women seem noteworthy between a man and a woman.

 

In all I am taking the long-winded approach to saying that gender as a construct, a subject is party articulated with regard to violence and has been for a really long time. Wrestling’s dependence on violence as central to the form itself presents it with some unique challenges and opportunities in this regard.