Gymnastics in pro wrestling/the Ricochet-Ospreay/Vader drama

[Ryan Faulconer]

I really really enjoyed the match. First of all there was great heat going almost throughout the entire the match. They didn't wear out the fans with a flat finishing stretch. It was a few minutes in before I realized that there was no commentary. If anyone heard them call spots it would probably be less noticeable with a commentary track. Their creativity made Red/Low Ki look like that Hase/Muto match 2001. Everything looked like it hit the right spots. There was believable selling. I'm not exactly how a Space Flying Tiger Drop is supposed to be sold ten minutes after it gets used. Apron bumping doesn't look as spine crunching in the New Japan ring. They seem to have more space to work with on that ledge where the ropes end and the edge of the apron begins. In a perfect world the DVD doesn't happen. They can still get to the rebound spot from a lot of other spots.

 

This wasn't a feud ending brawl or attached to an angle outside of the tournament itself being one. I just watched Hero vs ZSJ from Wrestlecon show. I have a hard time picking which match is the better of the two. The more they work with veterans like Hero the better they will get at the punches and using slight of hand to make five spots mean just as much as ten. Hero/ZSJ was almost the opposite of Ospreay vs Ricochet.

 

This was just the next step ahead for fast paced action in wrestling. Ten years ago the Dragon Gate guys in ROH were the future. Ten years before that it was the AAA and/or MPro guys. The fans in attendance for Ospreay/Ricochet were having a blast watching the match. I don't mind the chanting at all when it seems spontaneous as it did with this crowd.

[Parties]

People can read my actual review of this in the Viaje del Parties thread, but this is an odd match for people to get up in arms about. It's clearly the high-profile, polarizing nature of the NJ Juniors scene at work, and the previously stated oddness of the whole GIF/Vader/Twitter dust-up.

 

As someone who's watched a good amount of recent Ricochet and Ospreay, none of this feels surprising or offensive. The match is in fact an improvement on recent Ricochet that I've seen live and on tape. Lucha Underground has helped him along, as he was a guy I dreaded seeing back when he was working Uhaa Nation and the like in DGUSA. It's a huge, huge improvement over Ospreay-Sabre Jr. (EVOLVE) and Ospreay-Skuril (RPW), two highly acclaimed matches that I think are two of the worst I've seen all year. Those were selling-free, self-indulgent, kayfabe-killing misfires. Those felt like the work of immature wrestlers whose physiques exceed their brains. This was not nearly as bad as those, and felt better worked (in selling, strikes, and atmosphere) than their Mania weekend match.

 

People who think there was no selling or storytelling here are watching something different from what I saw. There are indulgent moments for sure (Ricochet in particular couldn't himself toward the end of the match, hitting a bunch of superfluous flips and head drops), but this is still in the top half of all matches I've watched/written about this year. The most controversial thing I can say about the match is that it doesn't feel all that controversial. I don't like star ratings, but if I used them I'd give this... three stars? Maybe three and a half if feeling generous? It's an entertaining novelty that I'll probably never watch again. In my ongoing rankings, it's the 69th best match I've seen this year. There's a mutual masturbation joke in there somewhere, but I'll let you be the one to find it.

[Matt D]

The gif and the reactions to it are much more polarizing than the match. Generalities are much more interesting than specifics here. I caught it yesterday, finally. My star rating would be in the exact same range if I gave them, actually.

[Loss]

Yeah, the match hasn't really had anyone up in arms. It's the double flip. It's entirely the double flip. Every time the double flip is mentioned, it seems like there is a pivot to the match as a whole. Double. Flip.

[Laz]

Which makes the " controversy" all the more ridiculous since that's a taunt.

[C.S.]

Austin's thoughts:

 

 

 

During the podcast, Austin said that he watched the match a few times and he has never seen anything like it before. Austin called the match "phenomenal" and "a spectacle".

"The athleticism, incredible. The timing [and] the precision, unbelievable! Off the charts! A 10 out of 10! How these guys pulled off some of the the stuff that they did is beyond me." Austin continued, "as an athletic endeavor, a spectacle, it was just absolutely fantastic. I give both guys a big thumbs up for their performance. And it was almost as if this match was a little bit kind of performance art more so than wrestling, so to speak. But again, some of the moves Prince Puma or Ricochet just hit off the ropes, the kid hit him with a wheel kick in mid air. Again, the timing, the precision, the athletic ability, how they pulled this off, I have no idea."

'The Texas Rattlesnake' compared this NJPW Best Of The Super Juniors bout to the fantastic 'Dynamic Kid' versus Tiger Mask match from 1982.

"For something to kind of compare it to, I got on YouTube and I pulled up 'Dynamite Kid' versus Tiger Mask going all the way back to 7/23/1982. 'Dynamite Kid' versus Tiger Mask. That's another one for you to watch. I'll give it to you right now because I'm talking about it. So, just to have something to compare it to, I've never seen two guys so athletic at the same time in the squared circle and the way they executed this, the timing, it was just off the charts." Austin added "but when I compare this to 'Dynamite Kid' versus Tiger Mask, it's like no one can deny just the intent or the intensity of 'Dynamite Kid'. It was just off the charts. The guy was a real bad ass and laid his stuff in and it looked so vicious. And Tiger Mask, of course, was unbelievable, so I just thought the match was tremendous."

Austin claimed that the controversial matchup could have done with some more selling by the participants, though he admitted that any criticisms he had were nitpicking.

"Some of the stuff, there [were] a couple of DDTs in here that are just spot on. Not enough selling on that end. Some of the offense, as far as some of the forms, could have been delivered with a little bit more intent to hurt, you know, laid in a little bit better. Some of that lucha stuff, you know, when you drive by each other and just kind of get off the ropes, sometimes is not my thing." Austin added, "if these guys would've put in maybe four to five minutes worth of selling mixed in with all the bad ass stuff that they did, then it could have been off the charts epic. But again, that's me nitpicking it. And if you want me to say thumbs up [or] thumbs down, I've got to say thumbs up. Hellacious effort by both guys."

Austin suggested that Ospreay should work on his facial expressions a bit, though he would happily hire both Ospreay and Ricochet if he was running a professional wrestling territory.

"The [professional wrestling] business just keeps evolving. When you see a match like this, I don't think you could see a whole entire card of action like this, first and foremost because I don't think there [are] too many other human beings on the planet that could have executed this match. I think Ricochet and Will Ospreay are two of the most talented, athletic guys in the squared circle in the world right now. If I had a [professional] wrestling promotion and I was looking to hire two individuals, these are two individuals that I would hire. Now, I might modify and ask them to sell a little bit more." Austin said, "to Will Ospreay: sometimes the facials are a bit over the top. That's just me critiquing the guy, just being very critical."

Finally, Austin gave the match his 'Broken Skull' seal of approval and he recommended that everyone watch the match.

"I can't s--t on this match at all. Bad ass, unbelievable, and I recommend it. Everybody out there watch it." Austin continued, "shout out to both guys. Props. Throw a little bit of selling in there. For what it was, it was amazing and I'll leave it at that."

 

http://wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2016/0607/612439/steve-austin-on-what-he-thought-about-ricochet-vs-will-ospreay/

[Matt D]

Back to Dynamite and Tiger Mask.

[El-P]

And so ? Yeah, who's Steve fucking Austin to give an educated opinion about pro-wrestling. Well, eventually, I'll have to watch that match since it seems to be *da* big controversial point in "what has become of pro-wrestling ?" in 2016. Since I'm down on indy spotfest style, it's not like I'm going in with any positive pre-conception either.

[Cap]

Im with the camp that doesn't see the match as nearly as offensive as it is being made out to be. It is a showcase spot fest no doubt about it, but if you have seen these two before it is just what you might expect from them against one another turned up just a little bit. I agree with Grimmas that this probably doesn't have a lot of staying power, but probably left a lasting impression on much of the live crowd.

 

Overall, I thought it was a lot of fun. This isn't my favorite style right now, but I really enjoyed the match itself. It reminded me of that Red/Low-ki match from 2002 (I think) with all the martial arts spots early on (sorry if someone else brought that up - I just skimmed through the thread). Though the Red/Low-Ki match was better on the whole, it was similar in that they were throwing in some exchanges and counters that were certainly exaggerated, even for an "indy spotfest". In that, it felt like two guys playing with the wrestling genre and trying some new things while they had the chance (freedom to create, athletic opponent, etc). At the same time, it wasn't elite in my eyes. It wouldn't come close to consideration for my MOTY or anything like that. It was fun to watch, worth 20 minutes of my time. As others have said, there are better examples of this style that are toned down a touch and more measured on the whole as wrestling matches. I believe these two are perfectly capable of that, but it looked like they wanted to do something different.

 

I feel kind of sorry for a wrestling fan that can't find any enjoyment watching that match. I don't mean to to be patronizing, honestly. It just such an impressive display of athleticism from two guys honing their craft, trying to entertain fans, and making a name for themselves. It certainly doesn't have to be anyone's cup of tea (hey, if you don't dig it you don't dig it) but some of the more visceral and severe backlash (here and elsewhere) makes very little sense to me. As Loss pointed out, this is a lot about innovation and athleticism that lost some of the staples and tropes people enjoy in pro wrestling, but that doesn't seem to me a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There still seems a great deal to appreciate and enjoy here.

[goc]

I don't think the match itself was ever all that "controversial" it was mostly about the gif. And I'm not sure how anyone was all that suprised that someone like Vader, who probably doesn't really follow wrestling that closely, could see that gif and think "Geez this is what wrestling is now? That sucks"

 

And put me in the camp of people who think what happens in the gif is lame. But I've never liked that "mirroring moves into a standoff" spot because it just feels lame and masturbatory to me. Adding a bunch of flips isn't exactly going to endear me to it.

[C.S.]

Officially confirmed: Will Ospreay is a smug moron who makes stupid and offensive comments without batting an eyelash.

 

"I want to address something and it's not about what time it is. I tell you what, you know what time it is? It's time to get with the times! The IWC wants to say Ospreay doesn't tell any stories. Now I don't know why they'd want a dyslexic kid to read them Harry Potter...."

http://www.cagesideseats.com/indies-independent-wrestling-indy-promotions/2016/6/14/11938506/will-ospreay-shoots-on-iwc-tells-his-detractors-to-get-with-the-times

[MoS]

I always mark out a little whenever I read that Austin goes on YT and watches old matches, as well as current indy matches.

[cheapshot]

Officially confirmed: Will Ospreay is a smug moron who makes stupid and offensive comments without batting an eyelash.

 

"I want to address something and it's not about what time it is. I tell you what, you know what time it is? It's time to get with the times! The IWC wants to say Ospreay doesn't tell any stories. Now I don't know why they'd want a dyslexic kid to read them Harry Potter...."

 

http://www.cagesideseats.com/indies-independent-wrestling-indy-promotions/2016/6/14/11938506/will-ospreay-shoots-on-iwc-tells-his-detractors-to-get-with-the-times

 

It's Wrestling Twitter, not IWC. Get with the times Will.

[Cap]

I can't tell if Will Osprey is trolling internet fans (my gut feeling says yes) or just not nearly as clever as he thinks. I mean, I think the spirit of what he is getting at is right, but this was unnecessary and misguided.

 

Also, how is the IWC still a term with any consequence in people's minds?

[Laz]

Because it still exists.

[Loss]

He's clearly made the calculation that keeping this talk going is good for his career. It's funny that he's still bummed about it, though. I really thought this was over. It seems like he's decided keeping it alive is in his best interests.

[Cap]

Sure, in that there are still people with high investments in wrestling that use the internet to talk about it, but "IWC" feels pretty irrelevant to me anymore. Coming together via internet and common interest is par for the course now. It made sense when the internet was allowing a dispersed population with a common interest to come together in new ways, but wielding it as a singular entity has always been a point of confusion. No "community" disagrees on more than than the "IWC" yet the term gets thrown around as a singularity. It is either used as a strawperson to tear down or a vague source of credibility to back a claim about "what fans want". People just use it however it is most convenient to them. As a descriptor of diverse fans coming together through digital media, sure it exists. But as a population anyone can make much of a claim about, that is used to describe a group with coherent characteristics or tastes like this, it is dumb and dated.

 

To swing this back to topic, like Loss said, this seems like Osprey knows what he is doing though. He knows he can keep the conversation about him going, keep getting eyes on the match (and his other matches). Maybe in that I was wrong about "IWC". It seems pretty tactical to call out the "IWC" for it, part of the troll job even. I have actually seen folks commenting elsewhere that they felt like he was alienating fans by not taking them seriously, while others turned around and chimed in once more about the merits of his work. It was over, but he brought it back. By dumb luck and frustration over repeated questions or by strategic timing, he brought it back.

[El-P]

He's clearly made the calculation that keeping this talk going is good for his career. It's funny that he's still bummed about it, though. I really thought this was over. It seems like he's decided keeping it alive is in his best interests.

 

That's carny 2.0. Which always strikes me as a little bit pathetic. There goes my will to take some time to watch that match, because I really don't care that much, and this guy acting like an ass and doing the meta-smart-trolling act just makes the whole thing seems even more irrelevant to me.

[Matt D]

I just don't get what he's saying:

 

That wrestlers are dyslexic at best and that the form of wrestling is, at best, young adult fiction?

[Cap]

I think it was an attempt at self deprecating humor, that HE is dyslexic and confused by the demand for storytelling.

[kjh]

I think it's something you had to be there live for, seeing how much more over Ospreay is partly due to the Ricochet controversy (and partly due to winning the BOSJ tournament) and hearing the chants during the night mocking Vader.

 

Isn't wrestling all about generating the passionate reaction that you expected? Then he succeeded and you got worked.

[El-P]

and hearing the chants during the night mocking Vader.

 

It sounds pretty fucking sad, infact.

[NintendoLogic]

In addition to the anti-Vader chants, Ospreay did a Vader Bomb that was kicked out of at one. That's amusing, if somewhat petty.

[NitroFan]

If 'Internet troll' can become a wrestling gimmick Ospreay might be on to something. He's really getting under Vaders skin on Twitter 2 weeks after this nonsense started.

[Gutenberger]

If 'Internet troll' can become a wrestling gimmick Ospreay might be on to something. He's really getting under Vaders skin on Twitter 2 weeks after this nonsense started.

I' d imagine this could work way too well in today's era.