Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 4

[Ricky Jackson]

I think the simplest explanation is Vince envisioned Hulk vs Sid as the main event before Sid even debuted in WWF, and Hulk vs Flair had been run as a house show feud already. Back then, Mania was for fresh matches. Basically, Hulk vs Sid was always the plan and Hulk vs Flair was never the plan 

[Blehschmidt]

Did you ever wonder if maybe Undertaker's early hats were just leftover Billy Jack Haynes hats with the green band removed?

[sek69]

6 hours ago, Ricky Jackson said:

I think the simplest explanation is Vince envisioned Hulk vs Sid as the main event before Sid even debuted in WWF, and Hulk vs Flair had been run as a house show feud already. Back then, Mania was for fresh matches. Basically, Hulk vs Sid was always the plan and Hulk vs Flair was never the plan 

I think it's that and also Vince would be loathe to put the guy who was the face of the company he was battling in the main event of Wrestlemania. 

[El-P]

7 hours ago, DMJ said:

The final theory - that Hogan and Flair weren't drawing - is one I've seen alot...but I always wonder how their supposedly poor houses looked compared to a year prior or a year later. Plus there's that pesky 1994 data when Hogan and Flair actually did finally square off on PPV and it did record-setting buys for WCW. Its just hard to understand why something that was a hit in 94' was going to be a huge flop in 92'. Its not like either guy had had a renaissance in those 2 years. 

It's not a theory, it's a fact. Hogan vs Flair did not draw well in 91 in WWF. The contexts were vastly different.

In 91 Hulkamania was a tired thing in WWF. Flair was never presented as that huge of a deal (certainly not in the booking) before winning the Rumble, he was the guy with "some blurred world title belt". His main feud on TV was with Piper, who was mostly an announcer then, there was no real build for Hogan vs Flair on TV.

In 94, it was Hulk's first match ever in WCW, which was seen as a huge event in itself. Flair had been the top heel in the company since he came back in 93. The match was totally sold as a dream match between the two greatest pro-wrestling stars ever, it was really the jumpstart of a brand new WCW under Bischoff. The entire promotion then was build around this match. 

[Log]

2 hours ago, Blehschmidt said:

Did you ever wonder if maybe Undertaker's early hats were just leftover Billy Jack Haynes hats with the green band removed?

Well, I do now. 

[MoS]

3 hours ago, El-P said:

It's not a theory, it's a fact. Hogan vs Flair did not draw well in 91 in WWF. The contexts were vastly different.

In 91 Hulkamania was a tired thing in WWF. Flair was never presented as that huge of a deal (certainly not in the booking) before winning the Rumble, he was the guy with "some blurred world title belt". His main feud on TV was with Piper, who was mostly an announcer then, there was no real build for Hogan vs Flair on TV.

To add to this, their first matches actually drew well on the house show loop. But since Flair was treated as just another guy, a fraud loudmouth, the program just didn't have legs. By November, Hogan was actively burying Flair on promos. Come Wrestlemania season, their feud had no drawing power. 

Plus, one of Vince's promise to Sid to get him to jump to WWF in the first place was a WM main event. Wasn't he released cuz he failed a drug test? This was around the time they had really serious drug testing. 

[joeg]

This thread has me visualizing Billy Jack Haynes hats. The Cornette thread has me visualizing Cornette's attempts to to insert his member into a bathroom urinal's drain. PWO has gotten interesting since Loss came back.

[flyonthewall2983]

4 hours ago, El-P said:

In 94, it was Hulk's first match ever in WCW, which was seen as a huge event in itself. Flair had been the top heel in the company since he came back in 93. The match was totally sold as a dream match between the two greatest pro-wrestling stars ever, it was really the jumpstart of a brand new WCW under Bischoff. The entire promotion then was build around this match. 

But he wasn't. He was a solid face from the time he returned in February of 93, until he was a tweener with Ricky Steamboat in April and May, and didn't go full heel until a month before the match with Hogan. This part of why their angle failed in 94 isn't really remarked upon, that Flair didn't add much heat to their program. And it didn't help that Hogan beat him every time. 

[Dav'oh]

3 hours ago, joeg said:

PWO has gotten interesting since Loss came back.

Charles is undeniably a draw. More threads, more comments, from the moment he came back. 

[El-P]

4 hours ago, flyonthewall2983 said:

But he wasn't. He was a solid face from the time he returned in February of 93, until he was a tweener with Ricky Steamboat in April and May, and didn't go full heel until a month before the match with Hogan.

Oh that's right. Silly me. I meant he was basically the top guy in the promotion; The angle with Vader re-established him big time after the so-so stuff with Rude.

[DMJ]

 

15 hours ago, El-P said:

It's not a theory, it's a fact. Hogan vs Flair did not draw well in 91 in WWF. The contexts were vastly different.

In 91 Hulkamania was a tired thing in WWF. Flair was never presented as that huge of a deal (certainly not in the booking) before winning the Rumble, he was the guy with "some blurred world title belt". His main feud on TV was with Piper, who was mostly an announcer then, there was no real build for Hogan vs Flair on TV.

In 94, it was Hulk's first match ever in WCW, which was seen as a huge event in itself. Flair had been the top heel in the company since he came back in 93. The match was totally sold as a dream match between the two greatest pro-wrestling stars ever, it was really the jumpstart of a brand new WCW under Bischoff. The entire promotion then was build around this match. 

I think that's where I get stuck, though. Its like chicken-or-the-egg.

Did Hogan/Flair not draw well in 91' because Vince didn't do enough to promote it as a "dream match"?

Or did Vince decide not to promote the "dream match" because Hogan/Flair didn't draw well in 91'?

Everything you said is right...except I do have to respectfully disagree about Flair being brought in as "some guy." This wasn't Mike Awesome showing up in WCW and Vince Russo thinking everyone would know he was a big deal because of what he did in Japan and ECW. This was Ric Flair, probably the single-most well known wrestler in the US that wasn't in the WWE, claiming to be the real World Champion (because he hadn't lost the title), and almost immediately talking trash about the biggest babyfaces on the roster. Then, at Survivor Series, he inserted himself into the World Title picture by screwing Hogan. Then, he wins the Rumble (and title) at the next PPV in January. I was 7 years old at the time and I knew who Flair was and that he was a big deal. I think most any fan my age or older did. 

Again, about the rest of this, you hit the nail on the head. WCW clearly succeeded in pushing it as a "dream match" and proving that there was a market for Hogan/Flair after all and Hulk especially (like you wrote, the match was promoted as Hogan's first in WCW which was a big deal on its own, so, one could argue it would've been just as big a success if he'd been put up against someone who wasn't Flair).

But it still leaves me wondering why Vince wasn't able to or was resistant to promoting this match as a "dream match"? Does it really come down to not wanting to make Flair seem like an "equal"? And, if that's the case, he still ended up with the World Championship twice, including getting the biggest Rumble win ever, which seems to discount that theory.

Or was it one of those things where, he tested the waters via house shows without necessarily giving it a major TV push, and then thought, when it didn't do good enough business, "Even if I did promote this better on TV, it drew so poor low that there's not enough to even build on"?

[Ricky Jackson]

I think a stumbling block for Vince as far as promoting Hogan vs Flair as a Dream Match is that, WWF being WWF, he couldn't promote it as a Dream Match. He couldn't acknowledge Flair's past accomplishments. He couldn't acknowledge the fan debate. He couldn't acknowledge Flair leaving WCW with the belt. He couldn't have anyone say "NWA" or "WCW" or explain the wider world of wrestling to his audience. He couldn't do all this because WWF was WWF and nothing else existed in that universe. So we got what we got, which was kinda read between the lines with Flair having the NWA/WCW belt, Heenan acting like Flair coming in was a huge deal, that Funeral Parlor promo where Flair confronts Hogan and subtlety aludes to his past, etc, but soon enough Flair was just another WWF bad guy, feuding with Piper, on a Survivor Series team, always wearing the robe, etc. WCW, coming from a position of desperation and a need to be seen as relevant, of course had no problem making Hogan vs Flair as big as possible. It was the biggest match they ever promoted to that time, whereas Hogan vs Flair in WWF was just a fall house show program, and not even big enough in Vince's eyes to main event the next Wrestlemania, or any PPV for that matter 

[NintendoLogic]

The first Hogan/Flair house shows actually did great business. The first-ever advertised match between the two, at the Oakland Coliseum on October 25, was a near-sellout of 13,400 and did the best business the WWF had done in that building in a couple of years. It was only after Flair became regularly featured on WWF TV that the feud began to lose steam. I believe Kevin Nash once said that Vince would rather make a million dollars with his own idea than make ten million with someone else's idea, and we can see that in his treatment of WCW guys. He had to remake them so he could claim them as his own creations even if it meant compromising their drawing power. That's probably a big part of why the Mr. McMahon character was so effective. It was largely an extension of his shoot personality.

[sek69]

"Mr. McMahon" is 100% Vince's real personality with the volume turned up. It was also effective because he would constantly be foiled by Austin's shenanigans instead of how WWE is booked now where the heels largely bigfoot all the faces and make them look like geeks.

[PhilTLL]

Flair was booked very strong in angles when he came in. During his first few weeks he got to call Hogan "Thunderlips," tell him "I was winning titles while you were making movies," and issue challenges that Hogan immediately accepted and acknowledged the magnitude. Then he knocked out Piper, who had been so popular since 86-87 that he didn't need a particular place on the card or even to wrestle full time to stay over, and that angle included Vince McMahon himself doing a stretcher job.

The problems with his character (24/7 robe) and booking him poorly in the ring (Tito Santana) have been well documented.

[Phil Schneider]

3 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

The first Hogan/Flair house shows actually did great business. The first-ever advertised match between the two, at the Oakland Coliseum on October 25, was a near-sellout of 13,400 and did the best business the WWF had done in that building in a couple of years. It was only after Flair became regularly featured on WWF TV that the feud began to lose steam. I believe Kevin Nash once said that Vince would rather make a million dollars with his own idea than make ten million with someone else's idea, and we can see that in his treatment of WCW guys. He had to remake them so he could claim them as his own creations even if it meant compromising their drawing power. That's probably a big part of why the Mr. McMahon character was so effective. It was largely an extension of his shoot personality.

I almost got into multiple fist fights with Hulk Hogan fans at that show.

[Infinit]

5 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

The first Hogan/Flair house shows actually did great business. The first-ever advertised match between the two, at the Oakland Coliseum on October 25, was a near-sellout of 13,400 and did the best business the WWF had done in that building in a couple of years. It was only after Flair became regularly featured on WWF TV that the feud began to lose steam. I believe Kevin Nash once said that Vince would rather make a million dollars with his own idea than make ten million with someone else's idea, and we can see that in his treatment of WCW guys. He had to remake them so he could claim them as his own creations even if it meant compromising their drawing power. That's probably a big part of why the Mr. McMahon character was so effective. It was largely an extension of his shoot personality.

Vince still does that today, with characters that were successful/over in his own company (NXT) but he feels the need to break them down and remake them in his preferred image of them.

[sek69]

It seems clearer by the day that Pat Patterson was the only person who was ever able to translate Vince's wants/needs/quirks into a consistently watchable and entertaining product. It really seems like anyone else just managed to get lucky occasionally. 

[KinchStalker]

Can anyone identify the guy on the left? Picture is from 1977-8 if that helps.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2f/56/4e/2f564e469c97875c8389b60b02df0bcb.jpg

[Ricky Jackson]

1 hour ago, KinchStalker said:

Can anyone identify the guy on the left? Picture is from 1977-8 if that helps.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2f/56/4e/2f564e469c97875c8389b60b02df0bcb.jpg

Not sure, but based on his age in the pic, perhaps Fred Atkins, who helped train Baba 

https://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bios&wrestler=2645&bild=1

Edit: Although looking at pics of Atkins, I dont think so. Looks like Baba and Tenryu were in the US in early 1977, Forida, St Louis, KC, Carolina's, etc, so probably somebody associated with those places 

[Migs]

15 hours ago, PhilTLL said:

The problems with his character (24/7 robe) and booking him poorly in the ring (Tito Santana) have been well documented.

I had never thought about Flair wearing only the robe in the WWF and never a suit. Was that a Vince hangup too? That if he wore a suit he'd look like an announcer or manager? The only WWF guy I can think of in the time frame wearing a suit was Dibiase, and that was only briefly at the beginning before he transitioned to the shiny faux tux.

[ohtani's jacket]

He didn't just wear robes.

[PeteF3]

I think it's just a Vince thing of guys almost always being in their gear. Branding and all that.

Flair is in a suit during the famous Perfect turn on Prime Time. But his out-of-ring-clothes of choice generally were either his robe and trunks or Cosby sweaters.

[ButchReedMark]

The best Cosby sweater was Rick Rude's in ECW. Absolutely marvellous.

[ButchReedMark]

 

Lovely stuff.